What Passes for Communication, among Mountain Bikers

At 02:36 PM 2/21/03 -0600, Scott G. wrote: Bedwetter.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> Newsgroups:
sci.environment,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,alt.mo untain -bike Sent: Saturday,
February 22, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Mountain Bike Damage in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Park --
Three Years Later

> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:15 GMT, "GSL" <mtb_florida@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> .Mike, . .I have co-founded a mountain bike club here in Florida, and about
one-third
> .of the members are environmentalists.
>
> Wrong. NO real environmentalists (as opposed to environmental rapists masquerading as
> "environmentalists") mountain bike.
>
> I also hike and run on the trail. . .Non-motorized access to nature should be promoted.
>
> BS. It destrous wildlife and wildlife habitat.
>
> It is well documented .that equestrians, off-road cyclists, and yes, hikers, all have an impact
on
> .nature. You know this, I know this, and fortunately so do most park .managers. . .You really
> should consider directing your energy toward the cross-country .motocross and ATV invasion. The
> current administration is
pro-hydrocarbon
> .recreation. We should all be aware of this trend and do what we can to
stop
> .it as they are the true destroyers of the trail.
>
> What are you doing about it? When the land managers find out that you are
a
> mountain biker, ripping up the land with knobby tires, they will know you
are
> nothing but a hypocrite, and won't listen.
>
> .Where I ride, I am having to stop and pick up bottled water jugs left by .hikers on a weekly
> basis. The equestrians cause major erosion and leave .heaping piles of feces everywhere. Off-road
> cyclists skid into corners
and
> .loosen the trail. Do I get upset? A little.
>
> But not about your OWN destruction.
>
> .But then I remind myself that when more people share a resource, such as
a
> .state park, the more likely we are all going to benefit from it. We
should
> .all be joining forces, and working toward expansion, access, and
protection
> .of public lands - - not against one another.
>
> If you would think about the wildlife for ONE SECOND, you would know what
BS
> this is: wildlife don't appreciate the presence of humans!
>
> .Consider this thought, stop hating, and start hiking & enjoying your
life.
>
> I hate the destruction of nature, as EVERY responsible person should.
>
> .Scott G. .www.porc.org . . . . . ."Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> .news:301b5vs9a6namkc6hh3t8qacsj0dpk72t6@4ax.com... .> February 18, 2003 .> .> Board of Directors
> .> East Bay Regional Park District .> 2950 Peralta Oaks Court .> P.O. Box 5381 .> Oakland,
> California 94605-0381 .> .> Re: Mountain Biking in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Park -- .> Three
> Years Later .> .> Gentlepersons: .> .> I heard that mountain bikers will be doing trail .>
> maintenance on the Sinbad Creek Trail next Saturday, just .> as they did three years ago. So
> naturally I wanted to see .> why this has become necessary. Last Sunday I hiked that .> trail
> again. I was pleased to see that many of the illegal .> trails I reported to you three years ago
> have been marked .> "closed", and are in the process of being revegetated. The .> signs also warn
> the mountain bikers that if they fail to .> obey the rules, mountain biking could be banned from
> the .> park. Of course, they already knew that, and have known it .> for a long time. But who
> cares about rules, when you're .> having fun (and no rangers are in sight)? .> .> As you will
> recall from my March 27, 2000 letter, .> mountain bikers were crisscrossing the park with illegal
> .> trails, riding off-trail, riding during wet conditions, .> riding through the creeks, and
> creating deep U- or V-shaped .> grooves that make the trails difficult and dangerous to .> walk
> on. Nothing has changed! I photographed tire tracks .> ____________________ .> through the grass
> away from the trail, through a pile of .> gravel you imported to "improve" the trail, and through
> the .> creeks. (It may be a while before I can send you the .> photos, since I am only halfway
> through that roll.) It had .> rained the previous night, and there were long skid marks .> in the
> woods near the Shady Creek Trail. .> .> Hiker-only trails (such as the Chaparral Trail in .>
> Augustin Bernal City Park) are flat, and easy to walk on! .> ____ .> Most of the Sinbad Creek
> Trail (particularly its narrow, .> "singletrack" section) is so badly rutted by the bikers, .>
> that it is very difficult to walk on. Not only hikers, but .> even bikers are forced to go
> off-trail. None of it is flat. .> ____ .> .> .> In one section I noticed that you brought in a
> bunch .> of large, exotic rocks to try to keep the bikers in the .> trail. They stand out like a
> sore thumb, since they look .> like no other rocks in the park. You also imbedded a .> plastic
> matrix in that section of trail in a vain attempt .> to keep it from being damaged, and covered it
> with exotic .> gravel. Just as I predicted, all of the gravel covering the .> plastic has been
> eroded away, and the plastic itself is .> starting to wear away, polluting an otherwise natural
> park .> with particles of plastic! .> .> Also, as I predicted, few people like walking or .>
> riding on plastic, so they are starting to go around it, .> causing further erosion. And the
> plastic must be .> dangerously slippery, when wet! In one place, the plastic .> has even sunk and
> tilted, making it impossible to ride or .> walk on it. .> .> Near that section of the trail, I met
> a girl walking a .> dog. She didn't have a map, so I gave her mine. When I .> mentioned all the
> damage done by the bikers, she said "I .> can't get too mad, because I like to mountain bike,
> too". .> This is typical of mountain bikers: deny, deny, deny. Never .> "rat" on your fellow
> bikers. That is called "the Code of .> the Streets": criminals aren't supposed to tell on each .>
> other. If mountain biking is harming the park, just look .> the other way. Pretend that it is not
> a problem. Well, this .> attitude seems to have taken hold among Park District .> personnel, as
> well. Instead of admitting that bicycles are .> incompatible with the protection of the parks'
> resources, .> they pretend that the trail just isn't built well enough! .> .> Well, you are right!
> Until the trail is paved, it will .> _____ .> continue to deteriorate and need constant repairing.
> That .> is exactly why Yosemite National Park has insisted that .> bikes stick to pavement. You
> should do the same! .> .> Another hiker I met said that he thought that the .> bikers should have
> separate trails, since their presence on .> the fire roads makes it very unpleasant and scary to
> hike .> there. But that is no solution: either you have to build .> many new trails for the
> bikers, destroying a lot more .> wildlife habitat (and the impact of people extends far from .>
> the trail!), or you have to take some trails away from the .> majority (hikers) and give them to a
> small minority .> (bikers), which is not fair to the hikers. Besides, have .> you noticed?:
> mountain bikers are never satisfied, no .> matter how many trails they have! .> .> When are you
> going to face the truth?: bicycles and .> other vehicles belong on paved roads, as is the rule in
> .> Yosemite National Park! How many years do we have to wait, .> _____ .> before you admit that
> "education", as a way of taming .> mountain bikers, simply doesn't work?! .> ___________________
> .> .> .> Sincerely, .> .> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D. .> mjvande@pacbell.net .>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
> off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
> auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote:

.At 02:36 PM 2/21/03 -0600, Scott G. wrote: .Bedwetter. . . .----- Original Message ----- .From:
"Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> .Newsgroups:
.sci.environment,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,alt.m ountain .-bike .Sent:
Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:34 AM .Subject: Re: Mountain Bike Damage in Pleasanton Ridge Regional
Park -- Three .Years Later . . .> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:15 GMT, "GSL" <mtb_florida@hotmail.com>
wrote: .> .> .Mike, .> . .> .I have co-founded a mountain bike club here in Florida, and about
.one-third .> .of the members are environmentalists. .> .> Wrong. NO real environmentalists (as
opposed to environmental rapists .> masquerading as "environmentalists") mountain bike. .> .> I also
hike and run on the trail. .> . .> .Non-motorized access to nature should be promoted. .> .> BS. It
destrous wildlife and wildlife habitat. .> .> It is well documented .> .that equestrians, off-road
cyclists, and yes, hikers, all have an impact .on .> .nature. You know this, I know this, and
fortunately so do most park .> .managers. .> . .> .You really should consider directing your energy
toward the cross-country .> .motocross and ATV invasion. The current administration is
.pro-hydrocarbon .> .recreation. We should all be aware of this trend and do what we can to .stop .>
.it as they are the true destroyers of the trail. .> .> What are you doing about it? When the land
managers find out that you are .a .> mountain biker, ripping up the land with knobby tires, they
will know you .are .> nothing but a hypocrite, and won't listen. .> .> .Where I ride, I am having to
stop and pick up bottled water jugs left by .> .hikers on a weekly basis. The equestrians cause
major erosion and leave .> .heaping piles of feces everywhere. Off-road cyclists skid into corners
.and .> .loosen the trail. Do I get upset? A little. .> .> But not about your OWN destruction. .> .>
.But then I remind myself that when more people share a resource, such as .a .> .state park, the
more likely we are all going to benefit from it. We .should .> .all be joining forces, and working
toward expansion, access, and .protection .> .of public lands - - not against one another. .> .> If
you would think about the wildlife for ONE SECOND, you would know what .BS .> this is: wildlife
don't appreciate the presence of humans! .> .> .Consider this thought, stop hating, and start hiking
& enjoying your .life. .> .> I hate the destruction of nature, as EVERY responsible person should.
.> .> .Scott G. .> .www.porc.org .> . .> . .> . .> . .> . .> ."Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net>
wrote in message .> .news:301b5vs9a6namkc6hh3t8qacsj0dpk72t6@4ax.com... .> .> February 18, 2003 .>
.> .> .> Board of Directors .> .> East Bay Regional Park District .> .> 2950 Peralta Oaks Court .>
.> P.O. Box 5381 .> .> Oakland, California 94605-0381 .> .> .> .> Re: Mountain Biking in Pleasanton
Ridge Regional Park -- .> .> Three Years Later .> .> .> .> Gentlepersons: .> .> .> .> I heard that
mountain bikers will be doing trail .> .> maintenance on the Sinbad Creek Trail next Saturday, just
.> .> as they did three years ago. So naturally I wanted to see .> .> why this has become necessary.
Last Sunday I hiked that .> .> trail again. I was pleased to see that many of the illegal .> .>
trails I reported to you three years ago have been marked .> .> "closed", and are in the process of
being revegetated. The .> .> signs also warn the mountain bikers that if they fail to .> .> obey the
rules, mountain biking could be banned from the .> .> park. Of course, they already knew that, and
have known it .> .> for a long time. But who cares about rules, when you're .> .> having fun (and no
rangers are in sight)? .> .> .> .> As you will recall from my March 27, 2000 letter, .> .> mountain
bikers were crisscrossing the park with illegal .> .> trails, riding off-trail, riding during wet
conditions, .> .> riding through the creeks, and creating deep U- or V-shaped .> .> grooves that
make the trails difficult and dangerous to .> .> walk on. Nothing has changed! I photographed tire
tracks .> .> ____________________ .> .> through the grass away from the trail, through a pile of .>
.> gravel you imported to "improve" the trail, and through the .> .> creeks. (It may be a while
before I can send you the .> .> photos, since I am only halfway through that roll.) It had .> .>
rained the previous night, and there were long skid marks .> .> in the woods near the Shady Creek
Trail. .> .> .> .> Hiker-only trails (such as the Chaparral Trail in .> .> Augustin Bernal City
Park) are flat, and easy to walk on! .> .> ____ .> .> Most of the Sinbad Creek Trail (particularly
its narrow, .> .> "singletrack" section) is so badly rutted by the bikers, .> .> that it is very
difficult to walk on. Not only hikers, but .> .> even bikers are forced to go off-trail. None of it
is flat. .> .> ____ .> .> .> .> .> .> In one section I noticed that you brought in a bunch .> .> of
large, exotic rocks to try to keep the bikers in the .> .> trail. They stand out like a sore thumb,
since they look .> .> like no other rocks in the park. You also imbedded a .> .> plastic matrix in
that section of trail in a vain attempt .> .> to keep it from being damaged, and covered it with
exotic .> .> gravel. Just as I predicted, all of the gravel covering the .> .> plastic has been
eroded away, and the plastic itself is .> .> starting to wear away, polluting an otherwise natural
park .> .> with particles of plastic! .> .> .> .> Also, as I predicted, few people like walking or
.> .> riding on plastic, so they are starting to go around it, .> .> causing further erosion. And
the plastic must be .> .> dangerously slippery, when wet! In one place, the plastic .> .> has even
sunk and tilted, making it impossible to ride or .> .> walk on it. .> .> .> .> Near that section of
the trail, I met a girl walking a .> .> dog. She didn't have a map, so I gave her mine. When I .> .>
mentioned all the damage done by the bikers, she said "I .> .> can't get too mad, because I like to
mountain bike, too". .> .> This is typical of mountain bikers: deny, deny, deny. Never .> .> "rat"
on your fellow bikers. That is called "the Code of .> .> the Streets": criminals aren't supposed to
tell on each .> .> other. If mountain biking is harming the park, just look .> .> the other way.
Pretend that it is not a problem. Well, this .> .> attitude seems to have taken hold among Park
District .> .> personnel, as well. Instead of admitting that bicycles are .> .> incompatible with
the protection of the parks' resources, .> .> they pretend that the trail just isn't built well
enough! .> .> .> .> Well, you are right! Until the trail is paved, it will .> .> _____ .> .>
continue to deteriorate and need constant repairing. That .> .> is exactly why Yosemite National
Park has insisted that .> .> bikes stick to pavement. You should do the same! .> .> .> .> Another
hiker I met said that he thought that the .> .> bikers should have separate trails, since their
presence on .> .> the fire roads makes it very unpleasant and scary to hike .> .> there. But that is
no solution: either you have to build .> .> many new trails for the bikers, destroying a lot more .>
.> wildlife habitat (and the impact of people extends far from .> .> the trail!), or you have to
take some trails away from the .> .> majority (hikers) and give them to a small minority .> .>
(bikers), which is not fair to the hikers. Besides, have .> .> you noticed?: mountain bikers are
never satisfied, no .> .> matter how many trails they have! .> .> .> .> When are you going to face
the truth?: bicycles and .> .> other vehicles belong on paved roads, as is the rule in .> .>
Yosemite National Park! How many years do we have to wait, .> .> _____ .> .> before you admit that
"education", as a way of taming .> .> mountain bikers, simply doesn't work?! .> .>
___________________ .> .> .> .> .> .> Sincerely, .> .> .> .> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D. .> .>
mjvande@pacbell.net .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .> .> .> .> === .> .> I am working on
creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I
spent the previous 8 .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> .> .>
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .> . .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . .=== .I am working
on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
the previous 8 .years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .
.http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike, you're a GENIUS!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote: 1,600 words of
untrimmed reply with his usual non-standard quote delimiter and no actual content. Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in news:ic6i5vc9rsdo2aepti12i73lmrlj0rdeks@4ax.com:

> At 02:36 PM 2/21/03 -0600, Scott G. wrote: Bedwetter.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> Newsgroups:
> sci.environment,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,alt.mo u ntain -bike Sent:
> Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Mountain Bike Damage in Pleasanton Ridge Regional
> Park -- Three Years Later
>
>
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:15 GMT, "GSL" <mtb_florida@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> .Mike, . .I have co-founded a mountain bike club here in Florida, and about
> one-third
>> .of the members are environmentalists.
>>
>> Wrong. NO real environmentalists (as opposed to environmental rapists masquerading as
>> "environmentalists") mountain bike.
>>
>> I also hike and run on the trail. . .Non-motorized access to nature should be promoted.
>>
>> BS. It destrous wildlife and wildlife habitat.
>>
>> It is well documented .that equestrians, off-road cyclists, and yes, hikers, all have an impact
> on
>> .nature.

Did you know wild animals also cause a lot of damage to nature? They dig holes, crap all over the
place, tear up trees and all kinds of other horrible things. Maybe we should go out and kill all the
wild animals to help save nature.

Mikey,

I for one find animals rights activist extremely annoying. Have you ever had a furry woodland
creature just sit there and stare at you? Kind of Pisses you off doesn't it?! I find it hard to
concentrate on tearing up any pristine mountain trails, when I'm riding along scratching my nuts.
It's hard work trying to find a decent short cut though those damned groomed, and marked trails.
Although, I don't get too upset if if a horse or dog was to take a dump in the middle of one. I
just add my own logs to the steaming pile of filth. -Screw those hippy save the world activist. I
hope they step in it! I don't get much of a chance to get out biking much these days, as my SUV
only gets 10 mpg and it's a long drive up to the nearest trail. I guess I'll just stay home and
watch cable....

X

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chapman@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:<fu7i5v87oss3qles5ciqng0ma3nl8q7nkd@4ax.com>...
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote: 1,600 words of
> untrimmed reply with his usual non-standard quote delimiter and no actual content. Guy
> ===
> ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
> dynamic DNS permitting)
> NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
> work. Apologies.

Vandemen has been spewing one sided blather probably before I got on the net in 1998. He don't like
no mtb's...got it? He doesn't much like cars either. I'm a die hard mtber and I don't like cars, but
just the fact I like mtb's make me his enemy. Would he do better if he could bend a tad to accept me
and other mtber's that don't like cars? He just can't do it. The man is the most stubborn
son-of-a-gun I've ever know, [and that ain't no compliment, Mike.]

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:57:34 -0500, "x" <x@no-email.com> wrote:

.Mikey, . .I for one find animals rights activist extremely annoying. Have you ever .had a furry
woodland creature just sit there and stare at you? Kind of .Pisses you off doesn't it?! I find it
hard to concentrate on tearing up any .pristine mountain trails, when I'm riding along scratching my
nuts. It's .hard work trying to find a decent short cut though those damned groomed, and .marked
trails. Although, I don't get too upset if if a horse or dog was to .take a dump in the middle of
one. I just add my own logs to the steaming .pile of filth. -Screw those hippy save the world
activist. I hope they step .in it! I don't get much of a chance to get out biking much these days,
as .my SUV only gets 10 mpg and it's a long drive up to the nearest trail. I .guess I'll just stay
home and watch cable....

Did you say something?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On 25 Feb 2003 10:51:05 -0800, dougbike@yahoo.com (bikebreath) wrote:

."Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.chapman@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:<fu7i5v87oss3qles5ciqng0ma3nl8q7nkd@4ax.com>... .> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:58:18 GMT, Mike
Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> .> wrote: 1,600 words of untrimmed reply with his usual non-standard
.> quote delimiter and no actual content. .> Guy .> === .> ** WARNING ** This posting may contain
traces of irony. .> http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and dynamic DNS permitting) .> NOTE: BT
Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old .> mail addresses may no longer work.
Apologies. . .Vandemen has been spewing one sided blather probably before I got on .the net in 1998.
He don't like no mtb's...got it? He doesn't much .like cars either. I'm a die hard mtber and I don't
like cars, but .just the fact I like mtb's make me his enemy.

YOU aren't my enemy. MOUNTAIN BIKING is my enemy. Get it?

Would he do better if .he could bend a tad to accept me and other mtber's that don't like .cars?
He just can't do it. The man is the most stubborn son-of-a-gun .I've ever know, [and that ain't no
compliment, Mike.]

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"x" <x@no-email.com> wrote in message news:<3e5adba0@nocnews001.allthesites.org>...
> Mikey,
>
> I for one find animals rights activist extremely annoying. Have you ever had a furry woodland
> creature just sit there and stare at you? Kind of Pisses you off doesn't it?!

Only until I pull the trigger, then I feel much better.

> I find it hard to concentrate on tearing up any pristine mountain trails, when I'm riding along
> scratching my nuts. It's hard work trying to find a decent short cut though those damned groomed,
> and marked trails.

You can do it though. The easiest thing is to just start a big fire, the weekend before you go
biking. Then you can see the topography a lot better, not to mention all the new growth it
encourages later on - the animals love that ****.

> I don't get much of a chance to get out biking much these days, as my SUV only gets 10 mpg and
> it's a long drive up to the nearest trail. I guess I'll just stay home and watch cable.... X