Science Proves Mountain Biking Is More Harmful Than Hiking - Page 2

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:47:16 GMT, Gawnsoft
<xlucid@users.sourceforge.remove.this.antispam.net> wrote:

.On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:02:31 GMT, Mike Vandeman
<mjvande@pacbell.net> .wrote (more or less): .... .>Was I
ever surprised! I discovered that many .>bicyclists (e.g.
many mountain bikers) aren't environmentalists at all, but
are .>simply people who like to bicycle .... . .Why on earth
did this surprise you?

Because I expect people to be more intelligent.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:59:22 +0000, "@(none)" <""manos\"@(none)"> wrote:

.Wow, that was a really piss-poor essay. . .Formal writing
... does not -- I repeat, does not -- have to be ...
.punctuated with ... mental ellipses, Mr. Spock.

It does, when quoted text is omitted. DUH!

.Mike Vandeman wrote: .<ellipses>

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:35:12 +0100, Adam H <adam_NO_SPAMM_horan@yahoo.com>
wrote:

.Mike Vandeman wrote: .<large snip - perhaps a link would
have been better mike?> . .> === .> I am working on creating
wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> humans ("pure
habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .> . .
.Mike, . .Your stated desire is to create a human free
wildlife environment, can .you explain to me why is it that
you only seem to campaign against .mountain bikes?

You didn't READ it, did you? Not even the first paragraphs!

.A quick search in rec.backcountry for your name only brings
up articles .that relate to mountain bikes.

Have you ever read my signature, which is on every
post? DUH!

.Let us take a great leap and assume for the moment that you
succeed in .your desire to ban mountain bikes from any area
that you wish to class .as a wilderness. What will you do
then? Will you start campaigning .against hikers? Will you
turn on your allies and campaign for them to be .barred from
these areas?

I already am.

.Your article and the articles it references do not
seem to support the .argument that cycling is bad and
hiking is good.

Because I never made that argument!

They merely seem to .allow the argument that in some
circumstances cycling is worse for the .environment than
hiking, but that hiking is also bad.

DUH!

Some of the .referred articles also say that in some
circumstances cycling is less .bad for the environment than
hiking (Lathrop referring to Weaver 1978).

No, there's no comparison between biking & hiking.

.I know from personal experience the huge amounts of erosion
that can be .caused by the human foot - you just have to
witness the miles of made .trails that has been built in our
national parks. The combined erosional .effect of thousands
of boots has forced our national parks and .landowners to
construct pavements and staircases up and down our
mountains.

Your point being?

.Adam

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:35:12 +0100, Adam H
> <adam_NO_SPAMM_horan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> .Mike Vandeman wrote: .<large snip - perhaps a link would
> have been better mike?> . .> === .> I am working on
> creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .> humans
> ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .>
> . . .Mike, . .Your stated desire is to create a human free
> wildlife environment, can .you explain to me why is it
> that you only seem to campaign against .mountain bikes?
>
> You didn't READ it, did you? Not even the first
> paragraphs!
>
I read a much higher percentage of your posting than you
seem to have done of mine.

> .A quick search in rec.backcountry for your name only
> brings up articles .that relate to mountain bikes.
>
> Have you ever read my signature, which is on every
> post? DUH!

LOOK at my posting - which part of your original post did
I leave intact? Clue: your sig. Why else would I make the
comment I do in my first paragraph? Now, can you answer
my question?

>
> .Let us take a great leap and assume for the moment that
> you succeed in .your desire to ban mountain bikes from any
> area that you wish to class .as a wilderness. What will
> you do then? Will you start campaigning .against hikers?
> Will you turn on your allies and campaign for them to be
> .barred from these areas?
>
> I already am.

Can you provide google groups links to usenet posting you
have made that support this? Or indeed any evidence
towards this.

>
> .Your article and the articles it references do not seem
> to support the .argument that cycling is bad and hiking
> is good.
>
> Because I never made that argument!

So you'll agree with me that hiking is bad for the
environment.

Your opening quotes: "Every recreationist -- whether hiker,
biker, horsepacker, or posey sniffer --should not begin by
asking, 'What's best for ME?' but rather 'What's best for
the bears?'" Tom Butler

"Admittedly, backpackers and horsepackers can cause damage
to wilderness trails. But this is a poor argument to
suggest that we add another source of damage to those
trails." Dave Foreman

It seems to me an equally poor argument to focus solely on
only one human activity in the wilderness and try and push
all of the blame onto that activity. I think the main reason
that you receive so much criticism from the mountain biking
community is because of your focus on one small aspect of a
much larger picture of human activity in countryside areas.

Now I'm sure that many people have respect and sympathy for
the concept of a human free wilderness. The problem you
create when attempting to argue for it is in your focus on
only one activity. That apparently obsessive focus is what
makes people write you off as a crank.

>
> They merely seem to .allow the argument that in some
> circumstances cycling is worse for the .environment than
> hiking, but that hiking is also bad.
>
> DUH!
A full a reasoned response - continue like this and you'll
soon persuade the world.

>
> Some of the .referred articles also say that in some
> circumstances cycling is less .bad for the environment
> than hiking (Lathrop referring to Weaver 1978).
>
> No, there's no comparison between biking & hiking.

Did you read the article that you referenced?

>
> .I know from personal experience the huge amounts of
> erosion that can be .caused by the human foot - you just
> have to witness the miles of made .trails that has been
> built in our national parks. The combined erosional
> .effect of thousands of boots has forced our national
> parks and .landowners to construct pavements and
> staircases up and down our mountains.
>
> Your point being?

See above.

"S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zILHc.26400$SO5.15540@twister.socal.rr.com...
> TJ wrote:
> > "Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:vccue01qbn80dkkdovfqfnitgbevrfe2fm@4ax.com...
> >> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People
> >> -- A Review of My Insanity
>
> {*SNIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!*)
>
> > That is why I sold my mountain bikes and bought a
> > pinzguaer. I have found that If I make fresh tracks in
> > the meadows that all the other vehicles follow my
> > tracks. 4 more years of George Bush.
>
> YOU LEFT 42 KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL JUST TO ADD THIS?!? DON'T
> YOU KNOW HOW TO TRIM???
>
> Bill "simply astounded" S.
>
>
I am still looking for the "any key". Sorry about the
drivel.

TJ

What you're saying is that both activities are bad. Dale

"TJ" <hundtoftnospam@bresnan.net> wrote in message news:lr-dnVu4G_p8qW3dRVn-
tw@bresnan.com...
>
> "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:zILHc.26400$SO5.15540@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > TJ wrote:
> > > "Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vccue01qbn80dkkdovfqfnitgbevrfe2fm@4ax.com...
> > >> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People
> > >> -- A Review of My Insanity
> >
> > {*SNIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!*)
> >
> > > That is why I sold my mountain bikes and bought a
> > > pinzguaer. I have found that If I make fresh tracks in
> > > the meadows that all the other vehicles follow my
> > > tracks. 4 more years of George Bush.
> >
> > YOU LEFT 42 KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL JUST TO ADD THIS?!? DON'T
> > YOU KNOW HOW
TO
> > TRIM???
> >
> > Bill "simply astounded" S.
> >
> >
> I am still looking for the "any key". Sorry about
> the drivel.
>
> TJ

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:32:01 +0100, Adam H <adam_NO_SPAMM_horan@yahoo.com>
wrote:

.Mike Vandeman wrote: . .> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:35:12
+0100, Adam H <adam_NO_SPAMM_horan@yahoo.com> .> wrote: .>
.> .Mike Vandeman wrote: .> .<large snip - perhaps a link
would have been better mike?> .> . .> .> === .> .> I am
working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
.> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.) .> .> .> . .> . .> .Mike, .> . .> .Your
stated desire is to create a human free wildlife
environment, can .> .you explain to me why is it that you
only seem to campaign against .> .mountain bikes? .> .> You
didn't READ it, did you? Not even the first paragraphs! .>
.I read a much higher percentage of your posting than you
seem to have .done of mine.

But you didn't comprehend it.

.> .A quick search in rec.backcountry for your name only
brings up articles .> .that relate to mountain bikes. .> .>
Have you ever read my signature, which is on every post?
DUH! . .LOOK at my posting - which part of your original
post did I leave .intact? Clue: your sig. Why else would I
make the comment I do in my .first paragraph? Now, can you
answer my question?

Read my signature. You didn't understand it, I guess.

.> .> .Let us take a great leap and assume for the moment
that you succeed in .> .your desire to ban mountain bikes
from any area that you wish to class .> .as a wilderness.
What will you do then? Will you start campaigning .>
.against hikers? Will you turn on your allies and campaign
for them to be .> .barred from these areas? .> .> I already
am. . .Can you provide google groups links to usenet posting
you have made that .support this? Or indeed any evidence
towards this.

Every post I have ever made. Read my signature.

.> .Your article and the articles it references do not seem
to support the .> .argument that cycling is bad and hiking
is good. .> .> Because I never made that argument! . .So
you'll agree with me that hiking is bad for the environment.
. .Your opening quotes: ."Every recreationist -- whether
hiker, biker, horsepacker, or posey .sniffer --should not
begin by asking, 'What's best for ME?' but rather .'What's
best for the bears?'" Tom Butler . ."Admittedly, backpackers
and horsepackers can cause damage to wilderness .trails. But
this is a poor argument to suggest that we add another
.source of damage to those trails." Dave Foreman . .It seems
to me an equally poor argument to focus solely on only one
.human activity in the wilderness and try and push all of
the blame onto .that activity.

No one is doing that, liar. Stop trying to change the
subject away from mountain biking. That's what were here
for: to discuss mountain biking.

I think the main reason that you receive so much .criticism
from the mountain biking community is because of your focus
on .one small aspect of a much larger picture of human
activity in .countryside areas.

Hmmm. Mountain bikers criticize me because they don't like
me or anyone to tell the truth about their selfish,
destructive sport! Period!

.Now I'm sure that many people have respect and sympathy for
the concept .of a human free wilderness. The problem you
create when attempting to .argue for it is in your focus on
only one activity. That apparently .obsessive focus is what
makes people write you off as a crank.

BS. You are simply trying to deflect criticism of
mountain biking.

.> .> They merely seem to .> .allow the argument that in
some circumstances cycling is worse for the .> .environment
than hiking, but that hiking is also bad. .> .> DUH! .A full
a reasoned response - continue like this and you'll soon
persuade .the world. . .> .> Some of the .> .referred
articles also say that in some circumstances cycling is less
.> .bad for the environment than hiking (Lathrop referring
to Weaver 1978). .> .> No, there's no comparison between
biking & hiking. . .Did you read the article that you
referenced?

Of course. Have you read all of my references?

.> .I know from personal experience the huge amounts of
erosion that can be .> .caused by the human foot - you
just have to witness the miles of made .> .trails that has
been built in our national parks. The combined erosional
.> .effect of thousands of boots has forced our national
parks and .> .landowners to construct pavements and
staircases up and down our mountains. .> .> Your point
being? . .See above.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:48:48 -0700, "Dale Peterson" <dale_peterson@charter.net>
wrote:

.What you're saying is that both activities are bad.

Yes, but that mountain biking is MUCH WORSE. Get it?

.Dale . ."TJ" <hundtoftnospam@bresnan.net> wrote in message
.news:lr-dnVu4G_p8qW3dRVn-tw@bresnan.com... .> .> "S o r n
i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote in message .>
news:zILHc.26400$SO5.15540@twister.socal.rr.com... .> > TJ
wrote: .> > > "Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in
message .> > >
news:vccue01qbn80dkkdovfqfnitgbevrfe2fm@4ax.com... .> > >>
The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People -- .>
> >> A Review of My Insanity .> > .> >
{*SNIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!*) .> > .> > > That is why I sold my
mountain bikes and bought a pinzguaer. I have .> > > found
that If I make fresh tracks in the meadows that all the
other .> > > vehicles follow my tracks. 4 more years of
George Bush. .> > .> > YOU LEFT 42 KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL JUST
TO ADD THIS?!? DON'T YOU KNOW HOW .TO .> > TRIM??? .> > .> >
Bill "simply astounded" S. .> > .> > .> I am still looking
for the "any key". Sorry about the drivel. .> .> TJ .> .> .

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:d7q0f09p87ml1eq3689dht89ahclie7t7f@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:48:48 -0700, "Dale Peterson"
<dale_peterson@charter.net>
> wrote:
>
> .What you're saying is that both activities are bad.
>
> Yes, but that mountain biking is MUCH WORSE. Get it?
>
> .Dale . ."TJ" <hundtoftnospam@bresnan.net> wrote in
> message .news:lr-dnVu4G_p8qW3dRVn-tw@bresnan.com... .> .>
> "S o r n i" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote in message .>
> news:zILHc.26400$SO5.15540@twister.socal.rr.com... .> > TJ
> wrote: .> > > "Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote
> in message .> > >
> news:vccue01qbn80dkkdovfqfnitgbevrfe2fm@4ax.com... .> > >>
> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
> .> > >> A Review of My Insanity .> > .> >
> {*SNIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!*) .> > .> > > That is why I sold my
> mountain bikes and bought a pinzguaer. I
have
> .> > > found that If I make fresh tracks in the meadows
> that all the other .> > > vehicles follow my tracks. 4
> more years of George Bush. .> > .> > YOU LEFT 42 KBs OF
> VANDEDRIVEL JUST TO ADD THIS?!? DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW
> .TO .> > TRIM??? .> > .> > Bill "simply astounded" S. .> >
> .> > .> I am still looking for the "any key". Sorry about
> the drivel. .> .> TJ .> .> .
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
> limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
> the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
> construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

If he "Got it" he would not be here in the news groups. Like
every one posting here, we all don't "get it" on a regular
basis. If we did the world would be a happier place. Why
don't you try to ban alcohol and promote weed or something
worth while. At least weed make you mellow. Remember the
last time you smoked? How many stoners do you ever see
starting a bar fight?

TJ.

"Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:1j10f0lmtup0rnm7fbnd7lk6tcgmc0pgcf@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:54:20 -0500, "di"
> <di0000@cox.net> wrote:
>
> . .? .> .> You didn't read it, did you? There are places
> you can learn to read,
even
> .after .> you are too old for school. . . .You don't have
> to read it to know what it says, just read the first
> .paragraph or two and the credits at the end to know it's
> mostly BS
composed
> .by a group of idiots only interested in promoting their
> views on others. . .Besides why waste your time, we've
> heard it all many times on this NG.
>
> It's nice to have a demonstration of how mountain bikers
> (don't) think!
THANKS!

No, it just proves we're smart enough to know what's going
to be said based on previous data, and therefore don't need
to waste our time and energy engaging in fiction.

Adam H asks (of MV):

>Your stated desire is to create a human free wildlife
>environment, can you explain to me why is it that you only
>seem to campaign against mountain bikes?

Because any Quixotic endeavour requires that the windmills
be large enough that they can't be beaten or knocked over.
If he started fighting something else, he may just pick on
something that can be done and then he would have to stand
behind some of his claims and actually try to do something
real. It's rather sad, really....

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:43:29 -0500, "di" <di0000@cox.net> wrote:

. ."Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
.news:1j10f0lmtup0rnm7fbnd7lk6tcgmc0pgcf@4ax.com... .> On
Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:54:20 -0500, "di" <di0000@cox.net>
wrote: .> .> . .> .? .> .> .> .> You didn't read it, did
you? There are places you can learn to read, .even .> .after
.> .> you are too old for school. .> . .> . .> .You don't
have to read it to know what it says, just read the first .>
.paragraph or two and the credits at the end to know it's
mostly BS .composed .> .by a group of idiots only interested
in promoting their views on others. .> . .> .Besides why
waste your time, we've heard it all many times on this NG.
.> .> It's nice to have a demonstration of how mountain
bikers (don't) think! .THANKS! . .No, it just proves we're
smart enough to know what's going to be said based .on
previous data, and therefore don't need to waste our time
and energy .engaging in fiction.

That's not called "smart". It's called "prejudiced", which
we knew already. So I guess you don't need to read
Shakespeare, after the first play. Of course, he would just
be repeating the same thing....
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

> That's not called "smart". It's called "prejudiced",
> which we knew
already. So I
> guess you don't need to read Shakespeare, after the first
> play. Of course,
he
> would just be repeating the same thing....

Shakespeare you are "not". Prejudiced is forming an
opinion of someone without knowing them, we know you very
well from your posts, rants, and name calling, our
opinions are based on facts as you yourself have presented
them time and time again.

<torll fodder snipped>

I would killfile you, but I find your dirge SO entertaining.

> That's what were here for: to discuss mountain biking.

Wrong: It's for you to enforce your beliefs on others.
You can't change the world by forcing others to your way
of thinking.