More Hate Mail from a Typical Mountain Biker

At 10:05 AM 10/21/03 -0700, Mike Stewart wrote:
>At 06:31 PM 10/17/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>1. You said I exaggerated. That's a lie.

>No, that's a subjective assessment.

"I think you exaggerated" would be a "subjective assessment". "You exaggerated" is a lie. It doesn't
surprize me that a mountain biker dioesn't know the difference between truth and lies.

>>2. You just agreed with me: "mountain bikes don't warrant the attention..."
means that the damage they do is acceptable.

>You continue to miss the point of relative severity here.

As I said, you continue to rationalize mountain biking by claiming that it's less damaging than
something else. Is burglary okay, just because it's less harmful than murder? Of course not!

>>3. You threatened to join IMBA, to retaliate against me, and even carried out
your threat.

>Technically, a threat is an expression of intent. Since I had already joined
IMBA before responding to you, I was not expressing intent but rather reporting the facts. If you
find it threatening for someone to join the IMBA, then I suppose that's your choice.

You used it as a threat, to intimidate me. Of course, it didn't work.

>>In other words, you are a 100% typical mountain biker.

>There is no such thing. Some mountain bikers are honest and pure and always
try to do the right thing, and some are selfish inconsiderate assholes. Most are somewhere in
between. Just like life. Surely you understand this reality of statistical variation but choose to
ignore it because stereotypes are so much simpler.

100% of the mountain bikers I have met have lied. That is statistically improbable, but true. It
proves that mountain bikers are different.

>>If you weren't so busy lying, you might get some respect. If you pass my email
to your parents, as you promised (mountain bikers are NOTORIOUSLY unreliable), you will see that
they are very disappointed.

>I hate to disrupt your exaggerated stereotype of unreliability, but here's part
of my mother's response: "You, as a son, are not only a thrill but the farthest thing from a
disappointment. You are considered as a kind and caring person in regards to the environment and
others." Of course, she may not realize what a belligerent, aggressive, unreliable, lying, nature
hater I am...

True. Mothers wear rose-colored glasses, especially when outsiders are concerned. I'm not surprized
that she doesn't understand the damage that mountain biking does. She has YOU for a teacher.

>>No parent I have ever met would teach their kid to lie. You do it, because you
want to get your way. Mountain bikers are like that: belligerent, aggressive, and dishonest.

>>I don't have time to teach all mountain bikers ethics, but I will give you ONE
more chance to prove that you have a shred of integrity, by how you respond. Good luck.

>In the end, I do appreciate what folks like you say and do for the sake of the
environment, that's why I joined the Sierra Club, and give money to Greenpeace, and even voted for
Mr.Nader in the last election. But if Greenpeace spent their time and energy trying to ban scuba
diving because divers often insist on touching marine life with their bare hands (which can cause
disease and even death in some species), then I would stop supporting them.

As I said, you value human pleasure above wildlife protection -- like ALL mountain bikers.

> It's not because scuba diving is harmless to the environment, but rather
because it is more important to address the unconscionable mass polluting of the oceans by
government and mega-corporations around the world, It's all about relative severity. Until you get
that concept, I'm afraid you will just continue to be a frustrated and angry man (not a lie, just
another subjective assessment, take it or leave it).

I just tell the truth -- something you have yet to learn, although you should have known by
kindergarten.

>Have a good day.

>- Mike

Mike Stewart <mistewar@cisco.com> wrote: Yep, you got me. I'm one of those mountain bikers. I didn't
mention it because I don't think its relevant, not because I wasn't being honest enough to admit it.
Actually, I have two mountain bikes. Twice the evil.

I am curious as to how you figured my mountain bike status given that:

(1) I didn't lie to you. Your letters did frighten me, and I did join the IMBA immediately after
reading them.
(2) I didn't imply that what mountain bikes are doing is ok, that's your inference. I only pointed
out that in the greater reality of environmental issues, mountain bikes do not warrant the
attention you are giving them.
(3) I didn't threaten you.

My parents must be pretty disappointed? Well I'm sure they're not thrilled with me but I wouldn't go
so far as to say they are disappointed. I'll forward your email to them anyway, just to make sure.
Still, I don't see what they have to do with this. Seems to me like a pretty desperate attempt on
your part to make me feel bad about myself or something.

Happy Friday.

- Mike

At 06:01 PM 10/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: One way you can tell that you are dealing with a mountain
biker is that:
(1) They lie. A LOT.
(2) They tell you that they aren't as bad as someone else, implying that what they are doing is
therefore okay.
(3) They threaten you in some way. I guess you must be a mountain biker, although you weren't honest
enough to admit it. Didn't your parents teach you to tell the truth? Most parents DO, you know.
They must be pretty disappointed....

Mike Stewart <mistewar@cisco.com> wrote: Mike - Just ran across some of your letters on the web
regarding mountain biking. http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/wc14.htm
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb121.htm

"One look at a mountain bike is enough to tell you that it is up to no good: the knobby tires are
designed to rip up the soil, and the suspension systems are designed to insulate the rider from the
shocks, as they beat the trail to a pulp."

"We are literally creating a generation that is too lazy to walk..."

Frightening stuff. Truly, something needs to be done. Your painfully exaggerated descriptions of
mountain bikes and their irresponsible, environmentally unconscious owners has already motivated me
to join the IMBA. I do share your environmental concerns in general, but your focus on mountain
bikes as a nature damaging component is like complaining that kids are spitting in the river
downstream from the Dow chemical plant. Your target cause is just, but your aim is senseless.

- Mike

I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Sheesh. Arguing with zealots is such a waste of time.

Ken Campbell Bigfork, Montana

Ken says:

>Sheesh. Arguing with zealots is such a waste of time.

If you can make the next logical step from there, and live by it, you will be doing well,
Grasshopper....

Steve

Let's argue about something meaningful, like Campy vs. Shimano, Ksyrium vs. Zipp, steel vs. carbon or Coke vs. Pepsi.

"Justine7458" wrote <SNIP>
> Let's argue about something meaningful, like Campy vs. Shimano, Ksyrium
> vs. Zipp, steel vs. carbon or Coke vs. Pepsi.
>
Or snipping meaningless content vs. not snipping...

cg

"Justine7458" <usenet-forum@cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
news:3f96a543$1_2@news.chariot.net.au...
> Mike Vandeman wrote:

{SEE THIS??? THIS IS A SNIP!!!}

> Let's argue about something meaningful, like Campy vs. Shimano, Ksyrium
> vs. Zipp, steel vs. carbon or Coke vs. Pepsi.

So you left hundreds of lines of Vandedrivel just to tack on that tacky little...uh, tack-on?

> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com

Now THERE's a shock.

Bill "maroon convention around here lately" S.

Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:<121cpvgg3i5upgd5o3299thv4g8lc4hcrd@4ax.com>...

>
>
> 100% of the mountain bikers I have met have lied. That is statistically improbable, but true. It
> proves that mountain bikers are different.
>

Psychologists have measured the frequency of lying in everyday social interactions. Everyone lies,
on averate one statement in three. So what's different?

--------------

ob·ses·sion
n.
1) Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied
by symptoms of anxiety.
2) A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.

--------------------
Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder American Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diagnostic Criteria A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental
and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by
early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the
following:

3) is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that
the major point of the activity is lost
4) shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project
because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
5) is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and
friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
6 ) is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values
(not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
7) is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
8) is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her
way of doing things adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed
as 7) something to be hoarded for future catastrophes shows rigidity and stubbornness

European Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders World Health Organization,
Geneva, 1992
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F60.5 Anankastic (Obsessive-Compulsive) Personality Disorder Personality disorder characterized by
at least 3 of the following:

(G) feelings of excessive doubt and caution;
(H) preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization or schedule;
(I) perfectionism that interferes with task completion;
(J) excessive conscientiousness, scrupulousness, and undue preoccupation with productivity to the
exclusion of pleasure and interpersonal relationships;
(K) excessive pedantry and adherence to social conventions;
(L) rigidity and stubbornness;
(M) unreasonable insistence by the patient that others submit to exactly his or her way of doing
things, or unreasonable reluctance to allow others to do things;
(N) intrusion of insistent and unwelcome thoughts or impulses.

Includes:
* compulsive and obsessional personality (disorder)
* obsessive-compulsive personality disorder

Excludes:
* obsessive-compulsive disorder

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personality Disorders A personality disorder is a severe disturbance in the characterological
constitution and behavioural tendencies of the individual, usually involving several areas of the
personality, and nearly always associated with considerable personal and social disruption.
Personality disorder tends to appear in late childhood or adolescence and continues to be manifest
into adulthood. It is therefore unlikely that the diagnosis of personality disorder will be
appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General diagnostic guidelines applying to all
personality disorders are presented below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of
the subtypes.

Diagnostic Guidelines Conditions not directly attributable to gross brain damage or disease, or to
another psychiatric disorder, meeting the following criteria:

(a) markedly dysharmonious attitudes and behaviour, involving usually several areas of functioning,
e.g. affectivity, arousal, impulse control, ways of perceiving and thinking, and style of
relating to others;
(b) the abnormal behaviour pattern is enduring, of long standing, and not limited to episodes of
mental illness;
(c) the abnormal behaviour pattern is pervasive and clearly maladaptive to a broad range of personal
and social situations;
(d) the above manifestations always appear during childhood or adolescence and continue into
adulthood;
(e) the disorder leads to considerable personal distress but this may only become apparent late in
its course;
(f) the disorder is usually, but not invariably, associated with significant problems in
occupational and social performance.

For different cultures it may be necessary to develop specific sets of criteria with regard to
social norms, rules and obligations. For diagnosing most of the subtypes listed below, clear
evidence is usually required of the presence of at least three of the traits or behaviours given in
the clinical description.

On 22 Oct 2003 10:52:30 -0700, rjk3@my-deja.com (RK) wrote:

.Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:<121cpvgg3i5upgd5o3299thv4g8lc4hcrd@4ax.com>... . .> .> .> 100% of the mountain bikers I have
met have lied. That is statistically .> improbable, but true. It proves that mountain bikers are
different. .> . .Psychologists have measured the frequency of lying in everyday social
.interactions. Everyone lies,

BS. Don't judge everyone else by mountain biker standards.

on averate one statement in three. So .what's different?

Mountain bikers do it more than anyone else.

.ob·ses·sion .n. .1) Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling .or emotion,
often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety. .2) A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion. .
.-------------------- .Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder .American Description .
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . .Diagnostic
Criteria .A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, .and mental and
interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, .openness, and efficiency, beginning by early
adulthood and present in .a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the .following: .
.1) is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or .schedules to the extent that
the major point of the activity is lost .2) shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion
(e.g., is .unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict .standards are not met)
.3) is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of .leisure activities and
friendships (not accounted for by obvious .economic necessity) .4 ) is overconscientious,
scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of .morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by
cultural or .religious identification) .5) is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even
when they .have no sentimental value .6) is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others
unless they .submit to exactly his or her way of doing things .adopts a miserly spending style
toward both self and others; money is .viewed as 7) something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
.shows rigidity and stubbornness
. .European Description .
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .The ICD-10
Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders .World Health Organization, Geneva, 1992
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . .F60.5
Anankastic (Obsessive-Compulsive) Personality Disorder .Personality disorder characterized by at
least 3 of the following: . .(a) feelings of excessive doubt and caution; .(b) preoccupation with
details, rules, lists, order, organization or .schedule; .(c) perfectionism that interferes with
task completion; .(d) excessive conscientiousness, scrupulousness, and undue .preoccupation with
productivity to the exclusion of pleasure and .interpersonal relationships; .(e) excessive
pedantry and adherence to social conventions; .(f) rigidity and stubbornness; .(g) unreasonable
insistence by the patient that others submit to .exactly his or her way of doing things, or
unreasonable reluctance to .allow others to do things; .(h) intrusion of insistent and unwelcome
thoughts or impulses. . .Includes: .* compulsive and obsessional personality (disorder) .*
obsessive-compulsive personality disorder . .Excludes: .* obsessive-compulsive disorder . .
.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . .Personality
Disorders .A personality disorder is a severe disturbance in the .characterological constitution
and behavioural tendencies of the .individual, usually involving several areas of the personality,
and .nearly always associated with considerable personal and social .disruption. Personality
disorder tends to appear in late childhood or .adolescence and continues to be manifest into
adulthood. It is .therefore unlikely that the diagnosis of personality disorder will be
.appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General diagnostic .guidelines applying to all
personality disorders are presented below; .supplementary descriptions are provided with each of
the subtypes. . .Diagnostic Guidelines .Conditions not directly attributable to gross brain damage
or disease, .or to another psychiatric disorder, meeting the following criteria: . .(a) markedly
dysharmonious attitudes and behaviour, involving usually .several areas of functioning, e.g.
affectivity, arousal, impulse .control, ways of perceiving and thinking, and style of relating to
.others; .(b) the abnormal behaviour pattern is enduring, of long standing, and .not limited to
episodes of mental illness; .(c) the abnormal behaviour pattern is pervasive and clearly
.maladaptive to a broad range of personal and social situations; .(d) the above manifestations
always appear during childhood or .adolescence and continue into adulthood; .(e) the disorder
leads to considerable personal distress but this may .only become apparent late in its course;
.(f) the disorder is usually, but not invariably, associated with .significant problems in
occupational and social performance. . .For different cultures it may be necessary to develop
specific sets of .criteria with regard to social norms, rules and obligations. For .diagnosing
most of the subtypes listed below, clear evidence is .usually required of the presence of at least
three of the traits or .behaviours given in the clinical description.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:02:16 GMT, "Sorni" <sorni@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote:

."Justine7458" <usenet-forum@cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
.news:3f96a543$1_2@news.chariot.net.au... .> Mike Vandeman wrote: . .{SEE THIS??? THIS IS A SNIP!!!}
. .> Let's argue about something meaningful, like Campy vs. Shimano, Ksyrium .> vs. Zipp, steel vs.
carbon or Coke vs. Pepsi. . .So you left hundreds of lines of Vandedrivel just to tack on that tacky
.little...uh, tack-on?

Yes. You guys are BY FAR my best publicists.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

> BS. Don't judge everyone else by mountain biker standards.
>

What makes you capable of judging everybody else by some flawed standard and nobody else capable of
making judgements based upon real standards?

Oh wait, I am not a biker so I never lie, which means you are not talking to
me.

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:43:02 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote:

.> BS. Don't judge everyone else by mountain biker standards. .> . .What makes you capable of
judging everybody else by some flawed standard and .nobody else capable of making judgements
based upon real standards? . .Oh wait, I am not a biker so I never lie, which means you are not
talking to .me.

ORV users are even worse than mountain bikers. That's OBVIOUS. Especially YOU. Anyone can see from
your posts that you lie CONSTANTLY1
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:59:16 GMT, Mike Vandeman <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:43:02 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>.> BS. Don't judge everyone else by mountain biker standards. .> .What makes you capable of
>judging everybody else by some flawed standard and .nobody else capable of making judgements
>based upon real standards? . .Oh wait, I am not a biker so I never lie, which means you are not
>talking to .me.
>
>ORV users are even worse than mountain bikers. That's OBVIOUS. Especially YOU. Anyone can see from
>your posts that you lie CONSTANTLY1
>===

Can you accept that it is possible for ANYONE to tell the truth without having to agree with you?

Or, are you the source of all truth?

Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:59:16 GMT, Mike Vandeman scribbled with a red crayon:

> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:43:02 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> .> BS. Don't judge everyone else by mountain biker standards. .> . .What makes you capable of
> judging everybody else by some flawed standard and .nobody else capable of making judgements
> based upon real standards? . .Oh wait, I am not a biker so I never lie, which means you are not
> talking to .me.
>
> ORV users are even worse

Wait a minute. I a previous reply you stated that" everyone lies". So
.....which is it???? Or is this simply a case of do as I say not as I do.

"Mike Vandeman" <mjvande@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:v0cipv86j7vh6tdf1fp1vlf6v15e9354oh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:43:02 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> .> BS. Don't judge everyone else by mountain biker standards. .> . .What makes you capable of
> judging everybody else by some flawed standard
and
> .nobody else capable of making judgements based upon real standards? . .Oh wait, I am not a biker
> so I never lie, which means you are not talking
to
> .me.
>
> ORV users are even worse than mountain bikers. That's OBVIOUS. Especially
YOU.
> Anyone can see from your posts that you lie CONSTANTLY1

You say that I lie "CONSTANTLY", I challenge you to cite one single lie. Any
lie. You pick it, and prove it is mine. You are the one with a long history of lying, not me.

Can any one please explain why any of you respond to Vandeman's idiotic posts? Its like arguing with a tree stump (only a tree stump is more intelligent.) He is a waste of bandwidth and time. --------------Dave

__________________
Come ride in West Virginia!