Regional and School Buses!

I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

"stratrider" <jreilly@enter.net> wrote in message
news:cc288ab6-4f3f-4f82-aa95-9f483912338b@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
> system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
> disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
> approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
> the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
> the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning city administrators.
The key here is to remember that getting out of the way is always preferred
to being the crushed victim who was within their rights. Aside from the
fact your family could possibly sue for mega bucks and collect, of course.
On the other hand, if a city bus did the dastardly deed your family will
probably be sol.

Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them, curse at city
officials, or whatever, but keep on getting out of the way.

"wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote in message
news:CZ6dnev6bN_xBqjVnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "stratrider" <jreilly@enter.net> wrote in message
> news:cc288ab6-4f3f-4f82-aa95-9f483912338b@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>>I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
>> system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
>> disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
>> approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
>> the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
>> the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!

An even more obviously malicious incident with a public bus
driver happened to me. Most dangerous part for me was when
the driver pulled in front of me an slammed on his brakes.
I am wary riding through that part of town now. If it happens
again, I will have at least a cellphone picture of the bus
showing the number if not video of the drivers' behavior.
I won't yell and scream. I will file a complaint.

> Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning
> city administrators.

It seems to me that calmly relaying your experiences to the
bus operating company managers *is* a good first step.
Follow up with a letter including as much details for the who,
what, when and where... Ask for specific corrective action.
Document the reponses you get. Follow up and escalate.

Your city, school district, and state likely have oversight
boards for public transit operators. Contact them. Find
out how to file a complaint. Go to city council and school
board meetings. Sign up to speak.

Even better, videos showing aggressive public bus driving
may be a very effective means for changing behavior. Copies
of these delivered to transportation supervisors and the public
officials who oversee them can have an impact. They really
don't want that sort of bad PR. Getting a local TV public
affairs reporter interested can raise the profile.

If the incident occurs with some regularity at the same location,
getting a several eye-witnesses and a video recording shouldn't
be too difficult. If you can arrange to have the video shot by
an off-duty police officer, or a local TV station, so much the
better. %^)

> Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them,
> curse at city officials, or whatever,

These responses won't help prevent the situation in the future.
In my opinion, acting in anger won't help you to have a "happier"
ride either. %^)

> but keep on getting out of the way.

By all means, be safe. Ride friendly, too.

Of course, if you're going to complain about someone elses'
driving, you need to be able to demonstrate that you're riding
as required by local and state ordinances.

Jon

"Jon" <jonmein@none.non> wrote in message
news:4835b209$0$5987$88260bb3@news.teranews.com...
> "wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote in message
> news:CZ6dnev6bN_xBqjVnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "stratrider" <jreilly@enter.net> wrote in message
>> news:cc288ab6-4f3f-4f82-aa95-9f483912338b@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>>>I am ready to do battle with two bus companies; my public city bus
>>> system and a local school bus company. A frequent example of their
>>> disrespect for cyclists involves a maneuver where the bus speeds up
>>> approaching an intersection and the makes a right across the path of
>>> the cyclist (me in this case)! It drives me nuts! The attitude of
>>> the driver is clear. Get out of my way or be crushed!
>
> An even more obviously malicious incident with a public bus
> driver happened to me. Most dangerous part for me was when
> the driver pulled in front of me an slammed on his brakes.
> I am wary riding through that part of town now. If it happens
> again, I will have at least a cellphone picture of the bus
> showing the number if not video of the drivers' behavior.
> I won't yell and scream. I will file a complaint.
>
>> Don't assume you are going to change this by jawboning
>> city administrators.
>
> It seems to me that calmly relaying your experiences to the
> bus operating company managers *is* a good first step.
> Follow up with a letter including as much details for the who,
> what, when and where... Ask for specific corrective action.
> Document the reponses you get. Follow up and escalate.
>
> Your city, school district, and state likely have oversight
> boards for public transit operators. Contact them. Find
> out how to file a complaint. Go to city council and school
> board meetings. Sign up to speak.
>
> Even better, videos showing aggressive public bus driving
> may be a very effective means for changing behavior. Copies
> of these delivered to transportation supervisors and the public
> officials who oversee them can have an impact. They really
> don't want that sort of bad PR. Getting a local TV public
> affairs reporter interested can raise the profile.
>
> If the incident occurs with some regularity at the same location,
> getting a several eye-witnesses and a video recording shouldn't
> be too difficult. If you can arrange to have the video shot by
> an off-duty police officer, or a local TV station, so much the
> better. %^)
>
>> Scream at them, give them the finger, throw rocks at them,
>> curse at city officials, or whatever,
>
> These responses won't help prevent the situation in the future.
> In my opinion, acting in anger won't help you to have a "happier"
> ride either. %^)
>
>> but keep on getting out of the way.
>
> By all means, be safe. Ride friendly, too.
>
> Of course, if you're going to complain about someone elses'
> driving, you need to be able to demonstrate that you're riding
> as required by local and state ordinances.
>
> Jon
>
>

Yes all that is good. My point is that neither calmly relating your
experiences to nodding bureaucrats or screaming and cursing at careless
drivers who can't hear you will assure you that you will be seen by the next
driver at any point in time. To assume otherwise is to beg to be a victim.
I suggest you assume you are invisible and be prepared to get out of the way
when a driver makes an unexpected move. If you read cycling newsgroups you
will see threads about dead cyclist run over by drivers who didn't see them
or weren't paying attention. Twenty to thirty people will rail on about the
stupid drivers and why won't the courts do something about this outrageous
situation. Then the subject shifts to someone who has just bought the
latest and greatest bike. And so it goes. Better to not be the subject of
one of those threads if you can help it. Be mindful of the possibilities at
all times. Aside from that do whatever makes you feel good. Just don't
lull yourself into feeling safe in automobile traffic.

On May 22, 5:25 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:

> All that matters when you are cycling is your own safety. Anything else is
> secondary by far. Get the hell out of the way of motor vehicles. They do not
> want you on the road in the first instance and when they run over you, they
> will say they did not see you and get off scot free.

Ed, there's no better point to make than that one. Anticipate. No
from experience what's going to happen and get OUT of the way! After
that, I would still love to get the driver out of the bus and have a
pleasant, civil, discussion with him. Yeah right... Pleasant and
civil. Ha.

"Jon" <jonmein@none.non> wrote in message
news:4836ae40$0$6065$88260bb3@news.teranews.com...
> "wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote in message
>>
>> Yes all that is good. My point is that neither calmly relating your
>> experiences to nodding bureaucrats [n]or screaming and cursing at
>> careless drivers who can't hear you will assure you that you will be seen
>> by the next driver at any point in time. To assume otherwise is to beg
>> to be a victim.
>
> I never suggested we assume such. However, educating public
> bus drivers to respect cyclists is not spitting the the wind. Cursing
> and screaming is. In the case of repeated, intentionally malicious
> and threatening behavior by employees of a public transit
> operating company, the corrective action is clear...
>

I think before you do that you need more information. Stratrider didn't
give enough info to make those assertions.


> As for not being a victim when cycling, simply "getting out of
> peoples' way" isn't the complete answer. Consider which is
> safer, hugging the curb or taking the lane. There are a number
> of circumstances when the safer, the intelligent thing to do is
> to take the lane.
>

Yes. Always do the safer, intelligent thing. To qoute Mr. Dolan, in the
off chance you've kill filed him, "All that matters when you are cycling is
your own safety. Anything else is secondary by far. Get the hell out of the
way of motor vehicles. They do not want you on the road in the first
instance and when they run over you, they will say they did not see you and
get off scot free. "

"Taking the lane" doesn't mean you are automatically afforded the protection
of the Savior's white light.



> In the description of the orignially posted incident and in
> mine, the issue was not one of "invisibility". It was one of
> certain visibility and certain disregard if not vehicular
> assault against the cyclist.
>
>> Be mindful of the possibilities at all times.
>
> Obviously we must be aware of the circumstances in
> which we ride. But there's no way *always* to be able
> to "get out of the way when a driver makes an unexpected
> move" under *all circumstances* when riding anymore than
> that can be done while driving or walking.


Yes, of course. This is the risk one must consider in cycling.


> I am keenly aware of cars around me when cycling. In about
> 15,000 miles of recumbent riding, I have never been hit. I've
> had only 2-3 somewhat "close calls" in my last decade of
> riding, none life threatening. I have avoided many more
> close calls by situaltional awareness and taking action,
> usually well in advance, sometimes by slowing down,
> sometimes by speeding up, sometimes by getting out
> of the way, sometimes by taking the lane...
>

You've been doing something right. Keep it up.


>> Aside from that do whatever makes you feel good. Just don't lull
>> yourself into feeling safe in automobile traffic.
>
> I don't feel unsafe when riding.
>
> In terms of risk of fataility per hour of exposure, cyclists
> are statistically safer than motor vehicle occupants.
> Nearly twice as safe, by some measurements:
>

So you say. In a school bus/bike accident I'll take the bus and you can
take the bike if it will make you feel safer.

"wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote in message
news:bMudnRcC1MkdUavVnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@comcast.com...
> Yes. Always do the safer, intelligent thing. To qoute Mr. Dolan, in the
> off chance you've kill filed him, "All that matters when you are cycling
> is your own safety. Anything else is secondary by far. Get the hell out of
> the way of motor vehicles. They do not want you on the road in the first
> instance and when they run over you, they will say they did not see you
> and get off scot free. "
>

Permit me to echo this sentiment. Sure it is possible to be killed, however,
it is also possible to be left with injuries that last a lifetime and that
limit your cycling releated activities to posting on newsgroups. Trust me, I
know!

Jeff

> Hi Jeff. How about giving us an update on how you are coming along. I
> think of you often and your terrible accident. It should be an object
> lesson to us all. I trust you are able to do most things that you
> previously were able to do even if you are no longer so frisky.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for asking. Like everything in life, my condition is a mixed bag.

On the one hand, I've lost a good amount of weight in the last year. I'm now
185 down from 265. Before you pat me on the back for an iron will, I must
tell you that I did it with surgery. I decided that I simply couldn't live
the rest of my life being that fat. I'll take credit for deciding to have
the surgery, however.

Regarding my injury, the damage that is a result of my spinal cord injury is
permanent. While I have learned to walk again and can sometimes almost look
normal, it is actually quite difficult and not fun at all. I still exercise,
however, and I don't think my friskyness (and I'm not using the word in any
sexual connotation) is diminished.

My feeling is that most places in this country, it is simply not safe to
cycle on the same roads as cars. The cars aren't used to dealing with
cyclists and they consider you a pest. There are a few places that are
bicycle friendly but most are not. My recommendation remains sticking to
rail-trails

I hope that this posting finds you healthy and in good spirits. I see that
you are still on the attack against your favorite dragons. I don't mean that
to be a put down at all. I have completely accepted that you are who you are
and you will always do what you do. We both come together as believing that
it is all for naught anyway as we will end up as piles of dust in the end.

My Best Always,
Jeff

"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
news:E5qdnamXE8ThFKHVnZ2dnUVZ_q_inZ2d@prairiewave.com...
>
> This newsgroup has really gone to Hell since you left us. JimmyMac is
> still here whining and crying like the baby he is and everyone else is
> desultory at best. It may be that Tom Sherman has left us permanently,
> which would not be such a bad thing. The truth is that we all of us wear
> out whatever welcome we initially had. I think about 5 years is the
> maximum stay for one and all - no exceptions.
>

Well if anyone can rescue it from hell it should be you being that you are a
great saint. I certainly can't rescue anything from hell being a sinner from
way back. Being an athiest doesn't help either. I did recently give a talk
about God, however. It is on YouTube and the best place to access it would
be from http://westchesterethical.blogspot.com

I have recently taken up the evil advocation of stalking for fun and profit.
If you think I'm kidding, please read http://jeffgrippe.blogspot.com The
postings are in reverse chronological order so if you want the story from
the beginning you'll need to read the earliest entries first. There are only
four or five entries in total so it isn't a great deal of reading. Now I
know that you don't like clicking on links but I'd really appreciate your
feedback on this. If you don't trust the link, just type the address into
your browser.

Best Always,
Jeff

"Wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote
> "Jon" <jonmein@none.non> wrote
>>"Wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote
>
> If you are on a bicycle and a bus is about to run over you
> it seems to me that wouldn't be the proper time to dwell
> on who is wrong or what led up to the situation, or officials you might
> discuss the problem with later. I should
> think you would spend that moment coming up with a new
> Plan A for getting your butt out of the way.

I have agreed that *not being run over* is preferable to being
run over. I have *not* suggested that at the moment of
pending impact any internal or external dialog about fault or
statistics is useful.

Rather, to reduce the likelihood of someone being between
that bus and a hard place in the future, I *have* suggested

1) educating public bus drivers about driving around cyclists
2) escalating complaints concerning such drivers' behavior as
appropriate
3) riding in a manner that improves visibility and promotes
safer interaction with motor vehicles

>>> spandex racing bike outfit,

On some physiques, I might appreciate such attire,
but not my own. My cycling clothes are inexpensive
and functional.

>>> leather gloves,
> [...] Leather gloves are good.

Ok, but I haven't found a need for them. In a decade
of recumbent riding, I've never used gloves of any sort.
In the times I've gone "rubber side up" on my recumbents,
my hands have never left the handlebar grips.

People who ride low racers and may use hands
to support them at stops might find gloves useful.
The pavement can be dirty, hot, wet, etc...

>>> and a really cool styrofoam helmet?
> [...]
> I've ridden with helmets of so long I feel uneasy with out one.

I don't have a "cool" h*lm*t, but a rather utilitarian one.
Best feature is the visor. I wear one, but I don't attribute
great protective qualities to bicycle h*lm*ts.

> What do you say?

I say the h*lm*t flame wars are predictable and uninteresting.

> So what am I to think? I get the feeling you choose
> not to address the issue.

I have, and also attempted to broaden the discussion.
See my comments and suggestions, repeated above.

> Here's how you handled it the first time:
>
> [ bike vs bus ]

How about Mini Cooper vs. Tractor-trailer rig? %^)

>>>> [staticistics for fatality risk per hour of exposure]

Two stories:

1) My family likes to camp and backpack in the Rocky
Mountains. My mother-in-law collects newspaper
clippings about bears and campers and sends them
to us, often just before we leave for a trip. She is
projecting based on what seems common sense to
her that camping and hiking such places where there
are bears, it not camping and hiking in general, is
inherently unsafe. I point out we're at much greater
risk of serious injury or death driving to the trailhead
than once we get there.

She doesn't get it. People are generally pretty poor
judges of relative risk.

2) Often when non-cyclists hear that I ride to some
nearby city for exercise or lunch, they say, "Don't you
feel unsafe out there on the highway or farm to market
roads?" My answer is no. They are projecting based
on what seems to them common sense that cycling such
roads, if not cycling in general, is inherently unsafe. They
don't think driving or riding in a passenger car is unsafe,
yet the number of people killed in motor vehicle accidents
is much larger, both in absolute terms and by hour of
exposure.

They don't get it. People are generally pretty poor
judges of relative risk.

*That doesn't mean I ignore the bears or the buses.*

I take prudent precautions while camping and
hiking, not just for bears, but for other potential
risks.

I take prudent precautions while cycling, not just for
buses, but for other potential risks.

Jon

"Jon" <jonmein@none.non> wrote in message
news:483ff553$0$5914$88260bb3@news.teranews.com...
> "Wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote
>> "Jon" <jonmein@none.non> wrote
>>>"Wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote
>>
>> If you are on a bicycle and a bus is about to run over you
>> it seems to me that wouldn't be the proper time to dwell
>> on who is wrong or what led up to the situation, or officials you might
>> discuss the problem with later. I should
>> think you would spend that moment coming up with a new
>> Plan A for getting your butt out of the way.
>
> I have agreed that *not being run over* is preferable to being
> run over. I have *not* suggested that at the moment of
> pending impact any internal or external dialog about fault or
> statistics is useful.
>

It took a while, but thank you.


> Rather, to reduce the likelihood of someone being between
> that bus and a hard place in the future, I *have* suggested
>
> 1) educating public bus drivers about driving around cyclists
> 2) escalating complaints concerning such drivers' behavior as
> appropriate
> 3) riding in a manner that improves visibility and promotes
> safer interaction with motor vehicles
>

I'm in favor of all that. And I'm ok with you wearing what ever you like.

>> So what am I to think? I get the feeling you choose
>> not to address the issue.
>
> I have, and also attempted to broaden the discussion.
> See my comments and suggestions, repeated above.
>
>> Here's how you handled it the first time:
>>
>> [ bike vs bus ]
>
> How about Mini Cooper vs. Tractor-trailer rig? %^)
>
>>>>> [staticistics for fatality risk per hour of exposure]



Same thing. You calculate the fatality risk per hour of exposure, but I'll
take the Tractor-trailer rig regardless of the outcome of your calculations.



>
> I take prudent precautions while cycling, not just for
> buses, but for other potential risks.
>

No argument there.

"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
news:l7idnf4E3uxiHd3VnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@prairiewave.com...

> The only one here who is poor at judging risk, relative or otherwise, is
> Jon. Cyclists on the road are few and far between. If there were many,
> there would be many deaths.
> [...]
>

Relative risk is a funny thing. There was a time 15 years ago when I had
access to a lab with testing equipment that was willing to do a VO2 Max
(sort of the gold standard of fitness testing) test on me. I had been
training quite hard and I was curious as to what the result would be. For
someone who was healthy, the test carried with it about a 1 in 10,000 chance
of a life threatening adverse event or death.

A physician friend of mine asked me "Are you going to learn anything that
would make a difference in your health care?" I said no and that it was just
a chance to find out how fit I am. He said, "Then don't do this test. 1 in
10,000 events happen all the time." I ended up not doing the test.

So if you were going to tell me that the risk of a serious accident while
street riding were 1 in 10,000, I would say two things:

1. One in 10,000 events happen all the time.
2. It won't make a difference what the odds are after it has happened.

But what can I say? I wouldn't have stopped street riding before my
accident. I was encouraging more people to ride not less. I was getting
another car off the road and I was damn proud of it. The weekend after I got
hit I was supposed to go pick up a Lietra velomobile. I was planning four
season, all weather trike commuting. I had to call the owner from a hospital
bed to tell him I wasn't coming.

Unfortunately, most places in this country, it isn't safe to ride on the
streets. The cars don't like us and don't want to share the road. The car
that hit me wasn't an agressive bike hater. She was someone who didn't
expect to find a bike on the road dispite the fact that I was on the
"official bike route" and that there were signs posted. I think I actually
got hit right near one of the signs.

The City's idea of a bike route was simply to put up some signs. The road
wasn't actually safe to cycle on but the signs gave you a false sense of
security.

The one place I think Ed is wrong is when he says "If there were many, there
would be many deaths.". I think that if there were many then cars would
expect to have to share the road with cyclists. There might be a greater
number of deaths in total but there would be fewer as a percent of cyclists.
So I'm caught in a bind. On the one hand I tell people, "Don't do it. It
isn't safe" and on the other hand I argue that only if more people do it
will it become safer. Go figure!

Jeff

In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent on Sat, 31 May 2008 11:05:49 -0400
Jeff Grippe <jeff@door7.com> wrote:
>
> 1. One in 10,000 events happen all the time.
> 2. It won't make a difference what the odds are after it has happened.

I'd say a 3rd "We all die one day"

I am rather damaged from motorcycle crashes. All single vehicle. I
still ride my motorcycle fast in the twisties because dammit it is
fun!

I ride my recumbent in traffic because I ride it to work. In good
traffic and bad.

everyone gets to make their own decisions as to how bad their traffic
is. By Australian standards Sydney traffic is horrific with narrow
streets and angry people. I have had a couple of incidents of passing
too close or turn across me, but most people are fine.

No idea what traffic's like where you are, but given how people tell
me that Sydney traffic is exactly as you describe, is it that much
different?

People die on the roads all the time. In cars. Thinking they were
safe.

I might well die tomorrow as my uncle did - of a brain aenurism. I
might die as people did at the Granville bridge, in a train
derailment. I might die in a car when someone else smashes into it
through no fault of my own. If I let it bother me I'd never leave the
house.

I like riding. I ride to work for the pleasure of the trip, for the
exercise, I don't pay for petrol, it doesn't matter what time I leave
as the trip takes about the same amount of time, I don't have to find
parking.

Yes, someone might hit me and hurt me. For *me* the game is worth the
candle, the ride is worth the risk. And so far I am not, as far as I
know, dead.

If it is 1 in 10,000 then I guess I have a few more rides to reach the
10,000. So I'll keep going.


Zebee

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrng43f6m.m1u.zebeej@gmail.com...
> In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent on Sat, 31 May 2008 11:05:49 -0400
> Jeff Grippe <jeff@door7.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1. One in 10,000 events happen all the time.
>> 2. It won't make a difference what the odds are after it has happened.
>
> I'd say a 3rd "We all die one day"
>

And 4th, We all get to make our own decisions.

I didn't die on my bike. I sustained a spinal cord injury that has left me
with a life long pain management problem and while I'm simply too stuborn to
let it take away my athletic activities, I am fighting an uphill battle all
the way. Simple things like walking have gone from enjoyable to down right
unpleasent.

FYI, I live in a suburb of New York City, a small city about 25 miles North
of Manhattan.

Jeff

"Wilson" <ww@dixiedancekings.com> wrote in message
news:fJGdnfgXcYNxW93VnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> It took a while, but thank you.

You're welcome. Check the thread. I've been addressing
the issue of prevention and education all along. And part of
education is that cycling is not inherently unsafe.

> [...] You calculate the fatality risk per hour of exposure, but I'll
> take the Tractor-trailer rig regardless of the outcome of your
> calculations.

Hooked.

Then the only reasonable recourse is to be the biggest, baddest
fastest one on the road? It's a flawed generalization that because
in some particular instance greater mass is an "advantage" that it's
an advantage over all.

Say a large number of people put their bikes in their cars and
drive thirty minutes to ride their bikes for an hour and then drive
home. That's something that a fair number of cyclists may do on
a regular basis for weekly club or group rides. During what
portion of this are the people "protected" by more mass, by
highly engineered safety features? During what portion of
this are the people exposed to greater risk of fatality
over all?

Which is perceived as "safer"? Most people think the
time in cars. But it's a strange definition of "safer" where
the risks of fatality are nearly twice as high.

Jon