FREEMAP: Free mapping system for walkers/cyclists: Legal (copyright) issues

[Nick]

Hello,

(to uk.rec.walking/cycling) Many thanks to all helpful
comments made on FREEMAP.

(to uk.legal) A bit of background: I am in the early stages
of developing a free, web-based mapping database for walkers
and cyclists, whereby users of the service would enter a
grid reference or place name and a map of the area would be
generated. Data (i.e. footpath or feature coordinates) would
be sourced through individuals surveying paths using GPS
(Global Positioning System) devices, hand-held electronic
devices which pinpoint your position on the earth using
satellites.

(To all) One or two people pointed out potential legal
issues with other people
(i.e. not myself) contributing data to Freemap. Namely,
people could potentially contribute copyright data
from Ordnance Survey mapping products and claim that
they surveyed it themselves. Could anyone give me
guidance as to how to assure that responsibility in
such cases is in the hands of the contributor of the
data, and not me, the application developer, nor any
web hosting company?

Would it be legitimate for me to state, on the page where
contributors could upload data, a statement to the effect:

"All data contributed to Freemap must be sourced by the
contributor, or from other non-copyright data. Neither
Freemap nor web hosting

contributed to the Freemap database. In these instances,
Freemap will support the copyright owner in identifying the
source of the copyright data" (sounds a bit heavy, not
really "me" but if it has to be done it has to be done....)

with "Accept"/"Decline" buttons, as per your typical
software licence agreement.

Users would also be asked to state from where they sourced
the data. A database of users and data sources would be kept
(users would be notified of this, and the reason why, as per
the data protection act).

Or do I have to do things the old fashioned way and ask
contributors of data to send signed paper agreements to that
effect to me by post?

Thanks, Nick

[Nick Hopton]

In a recent message
<a859c046.0403151247.3380bd3a@posting.google.com>, Nick
<nick@hogweed.org> wrote.

[...]
>Would it be legitimate for me to state, on the page where
>contributors could upload data, a statement to the effect:

>"All data contributed to Freemap must be sourced by the
>contributor, or from other non-copyright data. Neither
>Freemap nor web hosting

>contributed to the Freemap database. In these instances,
>Freemap will support the copyright owner in identifying the
>source of the copyright data" (sounds a bit heavy, not
>really "me" but if it has to be done it has to be done....)

You'd need to have a notice on the main web page to this
effect, but how about something like this, which would have
to be accepted by anyone wishing to upload data:

'I confirm that the data I am about to upload to Freemap is
not copied or derived from a source covered by a copyright
that excludes such use'.

This should take care of the problem with copyrighted
material that is made available for free, public use, but
with conditions attached.

>with "Accept"/"Decline" buttons, as per your typical
>software licence agreement.

That's right.

>Users would also be asked to state from where they sourced
>the data. A database of users and data sources would be
>kept (users would be notified of this, and the reason why,
>as per the data protection act).

Shouldn't be necessary, I'd have thought.

>Or do I have to do things the old fashioned way and ask
>contributors of data to send signed paper agreements to
>that effect to me by post?

Again, shouldn't be necessary, I'd have thought.

I don't have any expert knowledge in this field, you need
to know <g>.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<hopton@dsl.pipex.com

[Paul Saunders]

Nick wrote:

> I am in the early stages of developing a free, web-based
> mapping database

> Data would be sourced through individuals surveying paths
> using GPS

> One or two people pointed out potential legal issues with
> other people
> (i.e. not myself) contributing data to Freemap. Namely,
> people could potentially contribute copyright data
> from Ordnance Survey mapping products and claim that
> they surveyed it themselves.

> Users would also be asked to state from where they sourced
> the data.

Surely if the data is sourced using GPS then the contributor
would have the relevant GPS files in their possession. In
the case of tracks you'd need to be sent the actual
tracklogs, which in themselves should constitute proof that
they'd been created with a GPS since they'd usually contain
relevant time and date data for each point, as well as
occasional spurious points. A track traced from a digital
map wouldn't look the same, it wouldn't have the correct
timestamps and it would match the map too perfectly. Even
without major reception errors, GPS tracks often don't match
footpaths perfectly.

Waypoint grid refs would be more tricky, since they could be
submitted in simple text format, but again, real waypoints
collected with a GPS would rarely ever match the exact
coordinates that you'd get if you marked the waypoint on a
digital map, so there should be realistic differences,
although more difficult to prove.

Why not set a requirement that all submitted data be
provided (or substantiated) in the form of the raw
(unedited) GPS track and waypoint files? Thus the submitted
files would effectively constitute the proof that they were
sourced by GPS.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk (http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/)
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk (http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/)
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

[Steve Maudsley]

"Paul Saunders" <pvs1@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c39krh$il1$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Nick wrote:
>
> > I am in the early stages of developing a free, web-based
> > mapping database
>
> > Data would be sourced through individuals surveying
> > paths using GPS
>
> > One or two people pointed out potential legal issues
> > with other people
> > (i.e. not myself) contributing data to Freemap. Namely,
> > people could potentially contribute copyright data
> > from Ordnance Survey mapping products and claim
> > that they surveyed it themselves.
>
> > Users would also be asked to state from where they
> > sourced the data.
>
> Surely if the data is sourced using GPS then the
> contributor would have the relevant GPS files in their
> possession. In the case of tracks you'd need to be sent
> the actual tracklogs, which in themselves should
> constitute proof that they'd been created with a GPS since
> they'd usually contain relevant time and date data for
> each point, as well as occasional spurious points. A track
> traced from a digital map wouldn't look the same, it
> wouldn't have the correct timestamps and it would match
> the map too perfectly. Even without major reception
> errors, GPS tracks often don't match footpaths perfectly.

Are GPS reference copyright to the people who own the
satellites? Or the people who made the GPS receiver?

[Blah]

Paul Saunders wrote:
> Nick wrote:
>
>> I am in the early stages of developing a free, web-based
>> mapping database
>
>> Data would be sourced through individuals surveying paths
>> using GPS
>
>> One or two people pointed out potential legal issues with
>> other people (i.e. not myself) contributing data to
>> Freemap. Namely, people could potentially contribute
>> copyright data from Ordnance Survey mapping products and
>> claim that they surveyed it themselves.
>
>> Users would also be asked to state from where they
>> sourced the data.
>
> Surely if the data is sourced using GPS then the
> contributor would have the relevant GPS files in their
> possession. In the case of tracks you'd need to be sent
> the actual tracklogs, which in themselves should
> constitute proof that they'd been created with a GPS since
> they'd usually contain relevant time and date data for
> each point, as well as occasional spurious points. A track
> traced from a digital map wouldn't look the same, it
> wouldn't have the correct timestamps and it would match
> the map too perfectly. Even without major reception
> errors, GPS tracks often don't match footpaths perfectly.

Have you seen www.geowiki.com

[Ian G Batten]

In article <c39krh$il1$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Paul Saunders <pvs1@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Surely if the data is sourced using GPS then the
> contributor would have the relevant GPS files in their
> possession. In the case of tracks you'd

I think it would be for the OS to prove that your data came
from their maps, not vice versa.

In practice the difference would be easy to show, as GPS
data would align to the ground far more closely than
references taken from the maps. That's because (a) the
fundamental levelling has yet to be made 100% GPS compliant
and (b) it's unlikely, without access to very large scale
maps, that you would measure things off the sheets to match
GPS. The chances of a set of eight or ten figure grid
references taken off a handheld matching a measurement
taken from a consumer map (1:25000 or something) are
approximately zero.

ian

[Ian G Batten]

In article <ASSY352820496@assayer.co.uk>,
Steve Maudsley <news1@sjmaudsley.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Are GPS reference copyright to the people who own the
> satellites? Or the people who made the GPS receiver?

Neither.

ian

[Boo]

> Are GPS reference copyright to the people who own the
> satellites? Or the people who made the GPS receiver?

As per the general principle of copyright law : they are
the copyright of the person who made the recording, ie
the GPS user.

Except that, constituting a mere list of points, I'm not
certain whether or not they can be copyrighted at all ?

--
Boo

[Chris Lawrence]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Boo wrote:

> > Are GPS reference copyright to the people who own the
> > satellites? Or the people who made the GPS receiver?
>
> As per the general principle of copyright law : they are
> the copyright of the person who made the recording, ie the
> GPS user.
>
> Except that, constituting a mere list of points, I'm not
> certain whether or not they can be copyrighted at all ?

A similar subject came up in the Go newsgroup. Somebody
asked what the copyright position would be on Go problems
which they created and made available if it turned out
that a specific problem already existed somewhere else.
Since these problems are merely sequences of moves on a
board, which anyone could play or think of, such a
situation could arise.

The general consensus was that it would be hard to claim
copyright on a mere problem (because practically anyone
could think of that problem) but it would likely be easier
to claim copyright on a collection of problems (because they
represent the collection owner's work in selecting them and
putting them together to form something unique).

--
Chris

[R McPheat]

Ian G Batten <I.G.Batten@batten.eu.org> wrote in message news:<c3a08o$fgg$1@news-out.ftel.co.uk>...
> In article <c39krh$il1$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, Paul
> Saunders <pvs1@wildwales.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Surely if the data is sourced using GPS then the
> > contributor would have the relevant GPS files in their
> > possession. In the case of tracks you'd
>
> I think it would be for the OS to prove that your data
> came from their maps, not vice versa.

There are a number of deliberate minor mistakes in OS maps.
As long as you don't have the mistakes in your maps then
you are ok.

Robert