View Full Version : 60% by 2010
Just spotted this in The Times from last year - I didn't
know that 60% of our city's streets were going to be 20 mph
in 6 years - who'd want to drive a car then? I reckon the
council are after Cambridge's number 1 slot in time for the
2011 census ;-)
Traffic speed limits of 20mph have cut dramatically the
number of road casualties in Hull. The city council has
imposed the limit on 26 per cent of its roads, and has a
target of 60 per cent by 2010. The reason, it says, is that
it works: since the first scheme in 1994, the number of
road casualties has fallen by 14.3 per cent, against a 1.5
per cent rise in the wider region. Among children, there
has been a 64 per cent fall in road deaths or serious
injuries. There are now 120 zones covering 500 streets, and
they cost an average of £39,000 to implement. In most cases
"speed cushions" are used, but one, on a busy shopping
street, is a pedestrian crossing whose light remains red
for cars until after it detects that one has stopped. The
newest 20mph zone is aimed at protecting Hull's cyclists,
whose work trips are six times the national average
--
Simon M.
"Simon Mason" <simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:z7-cnRQlrKDZHw7dSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk...
> Just spotted this in The Times from last year - I didn't
> know that 60% of our city's streets were going to be 20
> mph in 6 years - who'd want to
drive
> a car then?
...and ride a bike? 20mph easily exceeded so watch out -
cyclists will/must be held accountable as well.
DG.
In article <inLkc.36468$h44.5444238@stones.force9.net>,
dg@vertnogo.org.uk says...
> ...and ride a bike? 20mph easily exceeded so watch out -
> cyclists will/must be held accountable as well.
Except that as I understood it, cycles are not subject to
the speed limits. Cycling without due care and attention not
withstanding. In addition to which, most cyclists are highly
aware of their surroundings and potential hazards as they
represent a danger-to-self.
Jon
In news:inLkc.36468$h44.5444238@stones.force9.net,
DG <dg@vertnogo.org.uk> typed:
> "Simon Mason" <simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:z7-cnRQlrKDZHw7dSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk...
>> Just spotted this in The Times from last year - I didn't
>> know that 60% of our city's streets were going to be 20
>> mph in 6 years - who'd want to drive a car then?
>
> ...and ride a bike? 20mph easily exceeded so watch out -
> cyclists will/must be held accountable as well.
>
Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on the
flat, and there's very few people for whom it's effortless,
and there's no speed limit for bikes. Although of course the
cyclist is legally responsible for being in control of their
bike at a safe speed.
A
"Jon Senior" <jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove> wrote in message
news:MPG.1afd954530a9099a9896c0@news.clara.net...
> In article <inLkc.36468$h44.5444238@stones.force9.net>,
> dg@vertnogo.org.uk says...
> > ...and ride a bike? 20mph easily exceeded so watch out -
> > cyclists
will/must
> > be held accountable as well.
>
> Except that as I understood it, cycles are not subject to
> the speed limits. Cycling without due care and attention
> not withstanding. In addition to which, most cyclists are
> highly aware of their surroundings and potential hazards
> as they represent a danger-to-self.
>
> Jon
I know that 'speeding' is not an offence in the
conventionally understood manner i.e. no offence is
committed per se by exceeding the speed limit, but how do
you think it will appear when you overtake the occasional
car that actually adheres to the limit? Believe me, there
are many, many cyclists who will regard such behaviour as
their 'right'.
Apart from the driver being pissed off at such behaviour,
I think a police officer will regard it as careless or
even reckless.
DG
In article <CFLkc.36471$h44.5444902@stones.force9.net>,
dg@vertnogo.org.uk says...
> I know that 'speeding' is not an offence in the
> conventionally understood manner i.e. no offence is
> committed per se by exceeding the speed limit, but how do
> you think it will appear when you overtake the occasional
> car that actually adheres to the limit? Believe me, there
> are many, many cyclists who will regard such behaviour as
> their 'right'.
I think that it will appear that you are on a superior form
of transport for the road conditions. ;-)
> Apart from the driver being pissed off at such behaviour,
> I think a police officer will regard it as careless or
> even reckless.
I would hope not (Although experience tends toward a lot of
plods not really understanding bikes very well)! Given that
a cyclist may be more aware of their surroundings and that a
bike travelling at 20mph can probably stop in a shorter
distance than a car travelling at the same speed, I think to
regard that behaviour as careless or reckless simply on the
basis of speed, would show a lack of understanding.
The pissed off driver is the greater problem, since they may
thus develop a disrespect for either the limits, or cyclists
(Or both!).
Jon
On Sat, 1 May 2004 12:10:23 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<$FirstnameInitialofSurname$@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
<c700gr$gqd7b$1@ID-93953.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on the
>flat, and there's very few people for whom it's effortless,
Speak for yourself ;-)
--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
Just zis Guy, you know? outlook.bugs@microsoft.com opined
the following...
> On Sat, 1 May 2004 12:10:23 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> <$FirstnameInitialofSurname$@onetel.net.uk> wrote in
> message <c700gr$gqd7b$1@ID-93953.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>
> >Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on the
> >flat, and there's very few people for whom it's
> >effortless,
>
> Speak for yourself ;-)
But we all know that joining the Dark Side gives an unfair
advantage.
That said, I can cruise at 20mph on the fixer and exceed
30mph on the flat on the Giant.
Jon
On Sat, 1 May 2004 12:10:23 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<$FirstnameInitialofSurname$@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on
>the flat,
Oh come on !
30mph is a struggle, especially in commuting garb, but 20 is
no big deal.
--
Smert' spamionam
On Sat, 1 May 2004 13:37:15 +0100, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
<MPG.1afdaa59c03a72a39896c5@news.clara.net>:
>> >Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on the
>> >flat, and there's very few people for whom it's
>> >effortless,
>> Speak for yourself ;-)
>But we all know that joining the Dark Side gives an unfair
>advantage.
My 'bent is bent and has been for some time; I was referring
to my 20-year-old tourer wth mudguards and hub dynamo :-)
>That said, I can cruise at 20mph on the fixer and exceed
>30mph on the flat on the Giant.
I cruise at around 22mph on the tourer (in still air) but
can't do 30 on the flat except in a paceline.
--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:da4790pdr41urjrka662dvi8r6g84kho86@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 1 May 2004 12:10:23 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> <$FirstnameInitialofSurname$@onetel.net.uk> wrote in
> message <c700gr$gqd7b$1@ID-93953.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>
> >Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on the
> >flat, and
there's
> >very few people for whom it's effortless,
>
> Speak for yourself ;-)
You took the words out of my mouth.....
E
"Simon Mason" <simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote in
message news:<z7-cnRQlrKDZHw7dSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk>... snipped
> . In most cases "speed cushions" are used, but one, on a
> busy shopping street, is a pedestrian crossing whose
> light remains red for cars until after it detects that
> one has stopped.
A novel idea having the default setting favouring
pedestrians. I would think it would work well at slowing the
boy racers down late at night as well having to halt at
every pelican crossing. Iain C
On Sat, 1 May 2004 21:50:15 +0100, "Doki" <doki@spamtroNspidar.com>
wrote in message <1083444427.51088.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>:
>A car stops quicker than a motorbike. I expect a pushbike
>can't brake as fast as a motorbike :).
Mine stops pretty sharply, and will be even better with the
Hope discs. But of course I am not at risk of going over
the bars...
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
In news:36Rkc.2307$8P1.21882081@news-text.cableinet.net,
Frobnitz <eddie_d@@@blueyonder.ocbackwards.uk> typed:
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com>
> wrote in message
> news:da4790pdr41urjrka662dvi8r6g84kho86@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 1 May 2004 12:10:23 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
>> <$FirstnameInitialofSurname$@onetel.net.uk> wrote in
>> message <c700gr$gqd7b$1@ID-93953.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>>
>>> Yes, except that 20mph isn't that easily exceeded on the
>>> flat, and there's very few people for whom it's
>>> effortless,
>>
>> Speak for yourself ;-)
>
> You took the words out of my mouth.....
>
Look, none of you lot are average.
And anyway, I've only just fitted a computer to my bike
again after a year without, so I can't confidently say what
speed I average, since I haven't done any steady riding
since. I've found that since lowering the gearing, I spin
out at about 35km/h, which doesn't bother me, though. Thing
is, cyclists would be less put out at being restricted to
20mph on suburban roads than motorists would. Speaking from
experience, when I am going over 20mph in the 20 zone I live
in, there's almost always a car that catches up with me.
Can't overtake easily cause of all the parked cars, though.
A
In news:1083444427.51088.0@demeter.uk.clara.net,
Doki <doki@spamtroNspidar.com> typed:
> Jon Senior wrote:
>> In article <CFLkc.36471$h44.5444902@stones.force9.net>,
>> dg@vertnogo.org.uk says...
>>> I know that 'speeding' is not an offence in the
>>> conventionally understood manner i.e. no offence is
>>> committed per se by exceeding the speed limit, but how
>>> do you think it will appear when you overtake the
>>> occasional car that actually adheres to the limit?
>>> Believe me, there are many, many cyclists who will
>>> regard such behaviour as their 'right'.
>>
>> I think that it will appear that you are on a superior
>> form of transport for the road conditions. ;-)
>>
>>> Apart from the driver being pissed off at such
>>> behaviour, I think a police officer will regard it as
>>> careless or even reckless.
>>
>> I would hope not (Although experience tends toward a lot
>> of plods not really understanding bikes very well)! Given
>> that a cyclist may be more aware of their surroundings
>> and that a bike travelling at 20mph can probably stop in
>> a shorter distance than a car travelling at the same
>> speed, I think to regard that behaviour as careless or
>> reckless simply on the basis of speed, would show a lack
>> of understanding.
>
> A car stops quicker than a motorbike. I expect a pushbike
> can't brake as fast as a motorbike :).
Reaction time is significantly quicker on a bike, as it's
controlled by the hands, not the feet (it takes non-
negligible time for the nerve impulses to reach the feet),
and it's less far to pull the brake pedal.
I can only remember seeing a car do an emergency stop once
or twice in my life, though, as compared to me stopping with
the rear wheel lifted at least half the time (I know, it's a
bad habit.) Normally the bike won't hit, and if it does it
won't be too hard. Not a good idea to risk it, though. And
normally the bike can swerve.
A
Just zis Guy, you know? outlook.bugs@microsoft.com opined
the following...
> On Sat, 1 May 2004 21:50:15 +0100, "Doki"
> <doki@spamtroNspidar.com> wrote in message
> <1083444427.51088.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>:
>
> >A car stops quicker than a motorbike. I expect a pushbike
> >can't brake as fast as a motorbike :).
>
> Mine stops pretty sharply, and will be even better with
> the Hope discs. But of course I am not at risk of going
> over the bars...
Despite riding a really badly set up bike for some time,
I've never managed to pitch over the handlebars. I'm not
sure how fast I can stop the Giant, but I've done a two
wheel skid on it before and with dual pivots I can easily
lift the rear wheel.
Even a modern motorbike is relatively heavy. I guess it just
comes down to traction.
Jon
Jon Senior wrote:
>
> Despite riding a really badly set up bike for some time,
> I've never managed to pitch over the handlebars. I'm not
> sure how fast I can stop the Giant, but I've done a two
> wheel skid on it before and with dual pivots I can easily
> lift the rear wheel.
>
Jobst Brant reckons going over the bars is more a
consequence of failing to brace your body against the bars
to stop it going forward than an unavoidable consequence of
hard braking.
Tony
Tony Raven junk@raven-family.com opined the following...
> Jon Senior wrote:
> >
> > Despite riding a really badly set up bike for some time,
> > I've never managed to pitch over the handlebars. I'm not
> > sure how fast I can stop the Giant, but I've done a two
> > wheel skid on it before and with dual pivots I can
> > easily lift the rear wheel.
> >
>
> Jobst Brant reckons going over the bars is more a
> consequence of failing to brace your body against the bars
> to stop it going forward than an unavoidable consequence
> of hard braking.
And the day I learnt this, was the point at which my
dominant brake became the front one.
Jon
"iarocu" <iarocu@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:776fb9de.0405011327.185a8fba@posting.google.com...
> "Simon Mason" <simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote
> in message
news:<z7-cnRQlrKDZHw7dSa8jmw@karoo.co.uk>...
> snipped
> > . In most cases "speed cushions" are used, but one, on a
> > busy shopping street, is a pedestrian crossing whose
> > light remains red for cars until after it detects that
> > one has stopped.
>
> A novel idea having the default setting favouring
> pedestrians. I would think it would work well at slowing
> the boy racers down late at night as well having to halt
> at every pelican crossing. Iain C
Exactly. There used to be late night boy racers on the
town centre inner ring road of my town. Cured by
defaulting the lights on the main road to red instead of
green. Nuisance on a bike though, when there's nothing in
sight in any direction. Nobody knows if you go through a
red light though, except the wardens? that watch the CCTV
cameras. Paul.
in message <c72edr$hd6dm$1@ID-178940.news.uni-berlin.de>, Tony Raven
('junk@raven-family.com') wrote:
> Jon Senior wrote:
>>
>> Despite riding a really badly set up bike for some time,
>> I've never managed to pitch over the handlebars. I'm not
>> sure how fast I can stop the Giant, but I've done a two
>> wheel skid on it before and with dual pivots I can easily
>> lift the rear wheel.
>>
>
> Jobst Brant reckons going over the bars is more a
> consequence of failing to brace your body against the bars
> to stop it going forward than an unavoidable consequence
> of hard braking.
While it would cause me physical pain to agree with the good
Mr Brant on anything, I've never managed to go over the bars
on any bike under and circumstances, and that includes a lot
of idiotically steep off road downhills. Touch wood, fingers
crossed - I don't believe I would enjoy
it.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke)
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bi
ll
Le
e
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