How to run faster question

[Lynne Durham]

Hi everyone.

Okay, so I know that track work is one way to run faster,
and it's one I can
do. But I've also heard that running with people who are
faster than you are is another way to run faster.

My question is: how much faster than I am should they be for
me to benefit? I've tried running with a group, and within a
couple of city blocks their slowest runners had already
dropped me (I was averaging 11 min/mile over 8.5 miles).

I've been invited to run with women who are planning on 10
min miles. Is that still to fast for me to aim for
immediately?

Trying to get faster!

Lynne Durham Benton Harbor, Michigan

[Eddy Eagle]

"Lynne Durham" <lynnerdurhamNOSPAM@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<UCWlc.2801$eH1.1622723@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>...
> Hi everyone.
>
> Okay, so I know that track work is one way to run faster,
> and it's one I can
> do. But I've also heard that running with people who are
> faster than you are is another way to run faster.
>
> My question is: how much faster than I am should they
> be for me to benefit? I've tried running with a group,
> and within a couple of city blocks their slowest
> runners had already dropped me (I was averaging 11
> min/mile over 8.5 miles).
>
> I've been invited to run with women who are planning on 10
> min miles. Is that still to fast for me to aim for
> immediately?
>
> Trying to get faster!
>
> Lynne Durham Benton Harbor, Michigan

If you are running at an 11" pace and feel maxed out, you
probably are putting out a high perceived effort. Sometimes
people can fool themselves into thinking they are working
hard and they may actually be doing a 60% effort. Running
with slightly faster people can improve cadence and overall
effort. But the major gain in speed is likely to come from a
change in form. Review some of the concepts put forth in the
archives of this group. Experiment and you might hit on
something that works for you. Aging marathoner Bill Rodgers
of Boston always said he could never understand how people
could run for 3-4 hours straight. He said this because he
believed those people were putting out a major effort just
like he was and he'd hate to do it for 4 hours. The
difference is efficiency and, of course, physical attributes
that can't be changed. So work on your form and efficiency
to get more out for a given effort.

[Miss Anne Throp]

Jog up to the biggest, dirtiest, hairiest, biker you can
find, and call him a quiche eating sissy. You'll find
yourself running faster than ever before.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <UCWlc.2801$eH1.1622723@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>, Lynne Durham wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> Okay, so I know that track work is one way to run faster,
> and it's one I can
> do. But I've also heard that running with people who are
> faster than you are is another way to run faster.

It can be, but running all-out for long runs is very
stressful and can only be done sparingly. The best way to
do this is just enter a race. The best way to run hard in
a group is to do speed work with people who are at about
your level of ability. This usually leads to everyone
working harder.

You can do some sort of quality work once a week if you
find it enjoyable, but it's not necessary at this stage.
If you do want to do this, I'd recommend hills. You will
get quite a boost both physiologically and psychologically
from conquering a tough hill. Slower beginners tend to
really struggle on hills, so it's a good entry point into
quality training.

> slowest runners had already dropped me (I was averaging 11
> min/mile over 8.5 miles).

If you're running at 11 minutes per mile, you are probably
some way below your genetic potential -- with some training,
you will probably surpass this pace by a large margin.

I think it's premature to worry about trying to run as fast
as you can at this stage. I'd suggest entering a race to get
a record of your current performance level, and then focus
on easy running at "conversational pace". The most important
factor in your training for now is consistency. Log all your
milage, and be consistent. Don't worry about doing high
milage, high distance or high frequency, but be consistent.
If you've been running 4 days and 15 miles a week, try to
stick to that closely -- make sure you get those 4 workouts
and 15 miles in but don't try to get in 6 days and 25 miles.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Qtrader]

Lynne Durham wrote in message ...
>Hi everyone.
>
>Okay, so I know that track work is one way to run faster,
>and it's one I
can
>do. But I've also heard that running with people who are
> faster than you
are
>is another way to run faster.

Yes, but track work is very boring IMHO.
>
>My question is: how much faster than I am should they be
>for me to benefit? I've tried running with a group, and
>within a couple of city blocks their slowest runners had
>already dropped me (I was averaging 11 min/mile over
8.5
>miles).

Running with others unless they have very similar
abilities as yourself is usually a big mistake because
speedwork should be a small percentage of your total
running time. Racing is better to get you running faster
and your effort will count more because its a personal
measure of your ability.
>
>I've been invited to run with women who are planning on 10
>min miles. Is that still to fast for me to aim for
>immediately?

That might work for you.
>
>Trying to get faster!

I suggest speedplay workouts called fartlek (swedish)
workouts, in which you vary your pace a great deal,
simulating intervals of various types. If you want to get
more sophisticated, then get a heart rate monitor so you can
run most of your workouts in the proper moderate effort
zone, and your speed workouts at a heart rate that will
boost your lactate threshold (LT) heart rate. If you have a
scientific bent then it can be alot of fun to read about
this and experiment.
>
>Lynne Durham Benton Harbor, Michigan

[Lynne Durham]

Thank you to everyone who responded. I gravitated
immediately to "I'm just not pushing it enough." At the end
of my marathon training last year, I was diagnosed with
persistent asthma and to be honest, the wheezing and
coughing scare me. But I ran hard today for three miles and
was able to push it to 9
min/miles. Quite obviously, I've let my fear of not being
able to breathe slow me down.

Now that I know I am easily capable of more, I'll take all
of the great advice here and put it into action.

Best,

Lynne Durham Benton Harbor, Michigan

"Lynne Durham" <lynnerdurhamNOSPAM@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> wrote
in message
news:UCWlc.2801$eH1.1622723@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> Hi everyone.
>
> Okay, so I know that track work is one way to run faster,
> and it's one I
can
> do. But I've also heard that running with people who are
> faster than you
are
> is another way to run faster.
>
> My question is: how much faster than I am should they be
> for me to
benefit?
> I've tried running with a group, and within a couple of
> city blocks their slowest runners had already dropped me
> (I was averaging 11 min/mile over
8.5
> miles).
>
> I've been invited to run with women who are planning on 10
> min miles. Is that still to fast for me to aim for
> immediately?
>
> Trying to get faster!
>
> Lynne Durham Benton Harbor, Michigan

[Jenn]

I'm a new runner and have a somewhat related question. I
currently run only 2 miles (and walk a half mile before and
after). I've read that I should only increase my mileage
about 10% every two weeks. In the meantime, I expect my
speed to improve, currently I probably average about 11
minutes per mile. (I am also an experienced cyclist, so I
already have a decent level of fitness.)

While running about the same distances over the weeks (with
small increases as per above), would it be better for me to
run at a moderate heart rate and hope that over time my
speed picks up, or is it better to run at a faster speed and
higher heart rate and hope that over time my heart rate
drops so that the effort becomes less? Obviously, if I want
to run longer miles I need to be able to do them at a
sustainable heart rate, but at my current short distance, I
can get by with a higher heart rate. I'm just not sure which
method is better. It sounds like Donovan is recommending the
lower heart rate method. I'm just worried that I'll develop
a "comfort level" at too low a speed and have trouble
breaking out of it later.

Thanks,

Jenn Santa Clara, CA

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
news:<slrnc9hvte.515.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...
>
> It can be, but running all-out for long runs is very
> stressful and can only be done sparingly. The best way to
> do this is just enter a race. The best way to run hard in
> a group is to do speed work with people who are at about
> your level of ability. This usually leads to everyone
> working harder.
>
> You can do some sort of quality work once a week if you
> find it enjoyable, but it's not necessary at this stage.
> If you do want to do this, I'd recommend hills. You will
> get quite a boost both physiologically and psychologically
> from conquering a tough hill. Slower beginners tend to
> really struggle on hills, so it's a good entry point into
> quality training.
>
> > slowest runners had already dropped me (I was averaging
> > 11 min/mile over 8.5 miles).
>
> If you're running at 11 minutes per mile, you are
> probably some way below your genetic potential -- with
> some training, you will probably surpass this pace by a
> large margin.
>
> I think it's premature to worry about trying to run as
> fast as you can at this stage. I'd suggest entering a race
> to get a record of your current performance level, and
> then focus on easy running at "conversational pace". The
> most important factor in your training for now is
> consistency. Log all your milage, and be consistent. Don't
> worry about doing high milage, high distance or high
> frequency, but be consistent. If you've been running 4
> days and 15 miles a week, try to stick to that closely --
> make sure you get those 4 workouts and 15 miles in but
> don't try to get in 6 days and 25 miles.
>
> Cheers,

[Eddy Eagle]

High_Colonic@webtv.net (Miss Anne Thrope) wrote in message news:<16935-4098FE15-483@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net>...
> Jog up to the biggest, dirtiest, hairiest, biker you can
> find, and call him a quiche eating sissy. You'll find
> yourself running faster than ever before.

Nah, even an 11" pace would put him beyond bottle throwing
distance in a few seconds and that would exceed the
attention span of the individual you describe.

When you do speed work the payoff comes weeks later. Simply
measuring more and closer will make you focus on your form
and effort. Just do something once or twice a week or race
and you will improve.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <65ce157a.0405051217.7300f256@posting.google.com>, Jenn wrote:
> I'm a new runner and have a somewhat related question. I
> currently run only 2 miles (and walk a half mile before
> and after). I've read that I should only increase my
> mileage about 10% every two weeks. In

How frequently do you do this ? Usually, I'd recommend a
slower rate of increase, about 10% every 3 weeks, but if
your milage is very low (less than 10 miles per week) you
could bring it up a little faster by adding more sessions
each week.

> the meantime, I expect my speed to improve, currently I
> probably average about 11 minutes per mile. (I am also an
> experienced cyclist, so I already have a decent level of
> fitness.)

Yes, I'd expect that your speed would improve quite a lot
even if your general fitness is quite good. Specific
adaptions have an enormous effect.

> While running about the same distances over the weeks
> (with small increases as per above), would it be better
> for me to run at a moderate heart rate and hope that over
> time my speed picks up, or is it better to run at a faster
> speed and higher heart rate and hope that over time my
> heart rate drops so that the effort becomes less?
> Obviously, if I want to run longer miles I need to be able
> to do them at a sustainable heart rate, but at my current
> short distance, I can get by with a higher heart rate.

That's one of the problems with doing short runs. You'll get
better gains in your endurance from doing longer runs at an
easier pace. However, you need to increase distance
gradually.

> I'm just not sure which method is better. It sounds like
> Donovan is recommending the lower heart rate method.

Yes. More intense training carries a greater risk of injury.
Even when you get more experience, it's better to do most of
your training at aerobic intensity.

> I'm just worried that I'll develop a "comfort level" at
> too low a speed and have trouble breaking out of it later.

I think you will develop worse habits by trying to do your
training runs too quickly. Most beginners tend to perform
their training runs too quickly, and their speed workouts
too slowly. Attempting to run fast on your training runs is
*not* going to adequately prepare you to properly perform a
speed workout.

If you are still concerned about this, I think the best
preparation for getting familiar with the effort level
that speed work requires, I'd suggest finding a good hill
to do reps on. If your usual pace for 2 miles is 11:00
pace, then running up a moderately steep hill will force
you to increase your effort level well beyond your 2 mile
pace. Even then, I would not recommend doing this more
than once a week.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Jenn]

Donovan,

Thanks for your replies. I only run about 3 times a week,
because I'm busy cycling on most of the other days (and
sometimes I do both). So far my idea has been that on one of
the run days I will try to run faster, and the other two
days I will run at a comfortable level and not worry about
my speed much. I am looking forward to increasing my mileage
and incorporating walking recovery periods into my runs to
help lengthen them, but I don't want to injure myself, so
I'm increasing the mileage slowly.

Unfortunately I don't have a hill I can reach on foot, so
I'll let that wait until I get serious enough to actually
want to fire up a vehicle in order to run in a specific
place. For now I just run around my neighborhood with our
two dogs. It's exactly 1/2 mile around my block, so that
gives me an easy option for a known mileage.

Jenn Santa Clara, CA

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
news:<slrnc9ilpm.aim.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...
> In article
> <65ce157a.0405051217.7300f256@posting.google.com>,
> Jenn wrote:
> > I'm a new runner and have a somewhat related question. I
> > currently run only 2 miles (and walk a half mile before
> > and after). I've read that I should only increase my
> > mileage about 10% every two weeks. In
>
> How frequently do you do this ? Usually, I'd recommend a
> slower rate of increase, about 10% every 3 weeks, but if
> your milage is very low (less than 10 miles per week) you
> could bring it up a little faster by adding more sessions
> each week.
>
> > the meantime, I expect my speed to improve, currently I
> > probably average about 11 minutes per mile. (I am also
> > an experienced cyclist, so I already have a decent level
> > of fitness.)
>
> Yes, I'd expect that your speed would improve quite a lot
> even if your general fitness is quite good. Specific
> adaptions have an enormous effect.
>
> > While running about the same distances over the weeks
> > (with small increases as per above), would it be better
> > for me to run at a moderate heart rate and hope that
> > over time my speed picks up, or is it better to run at a
> > faster speed and higher heart rate and hope that over
> > time my heart rate drops so that the effort becomes
> > less? Obviously, if I want to run longer miles I need to
> > be able to do them at a sustainable heart rate, but at
> > my current short distance, I can get by with a higher
> > heart rate.
>
> That's one of the problems with doing short runs. You'll
> get better gains in your endurance from doing longer runs
> at an easier pace. However, you need to increase distance
> gradually.
>
> > I'm just not sure which method is better. It sounds like
> > Donovan is recommending the lower heart rate method.
>
> Yes. More intense training carries a greater risk of
> injury. Even when you get more experience, it's better to
> do most of your training at aerobic intensity.
>
> > I'm just worried that I'll develop a "comfort level" at
> > too low a speed and have trouble breaking out of it
> > later.
>
> I think you will develop worse habits by trying to do your
> training runs too quickly. Most beginners tend to perform
> their training runs too quickly, and their speed workouts
> too slowly. Attempting to run fast on your training runs
> is *not* going to adequately prepare you to properly
> perform a speed workout.
>
> If you are still concerned about this, I think the best
> preparation for getting familiar with the effort level
> that speed work requires, I'd suggest finding a good hill
> to do reps on. If your usual pace for 2 miles is 11:00
> pace, then running up a moderately steep hill will force
> you to increase your effort level well beyond your 2 mile
> pace. Even then, I would not recommend doing this more
> than once a week.
>
> Cheers,

[_!_]

thejen12@hotmail.com (Jenn) wrote in message news:<65ce157a.0405061039.42ac0df0@posting.google.com>...
>>
> Jenn Santa Clara, CA

So Jenn, just how big are those puppys? And do they bounce
nice when you run?