Discovery about recovery...

[Qtrader]

I realized after my run today how effective my routine has
become and I'm noting remarkable progress in my fitness this
year as opposed to other years. Running less, cross-training
on the bike, and resting alot more than I ever did before
has completely revamped my exercise program, and has
improved my running fitness greatly compared to other years.

Right now I'm doing a cyclical program of running, followed
by biking the next day, followed by a day of either full
rest or a walk of a few miles at a casual pace. I just
repeat this cycle over and over, but if the weather is
particularly bad or something I take another day off. I vary
my running and cycling times between an hour and two hours,
depending on how I feel and what I did the previous time. I
do fartlek runs for speedwork, and I also do longer runs and
bike rides ever 10 days to 2 weeks. Since biking and running
don't use exactly the same muscles, it allows at least 2
days rest between runs and bike rides, which is amazing in
its effects.

My heart rate and running times for training runs have
dropped far faster and with less effort than with any other
training program I've tried in the past. I also have alot
more power and no feelings of overuse in my legs. The main
difficulty is in always being disciplined in taking the 3rd
day off. When the day is beautiful and when the day off
lands on a weekend its hard sometimes, but I've adjusted and
now I just walk around the lake with friends or something
and trust that my next run will be fuller and better with
this type of recovery.

In our evolutionary past, humans probably VERY rarely ran
day after day after day after day. More likely if they were
travelling they walked day after day.... To be sure long
running efforts must have been required at times, but this
would have been avoided day after day. I highly recommend
reading "Protein Power Lifeplan" by Dr.s Eades, that
explains the Paleolithic approach to exercise as well as the
type of diet humans ate in the past. Reading about this and
listening to my body and realizing that RECOVERY /
IMPROVEMENT is the only goal of exercise led me to my
current approach - so I decided to share it. Has anyone else
found success in a similar approach?

- Tony

[Virginiaz]

<< Has anyone else found success in a similar approach?>>

what you describe makes a lot of sense. i suppose one major
challenge -- for some of us -- is dealing with the reduced
brain neurotransmitter stimulation (aka: addiction to
exercise) that a less-intensive program offers.

\\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----
+ +------------------------Oooo----+ oooO
( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <qADmc.28039$wY.3227@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>, qTrader wrote:
> I realized after my run today how effective my routine has
> become and I'm noting remarkable progress in my fitness
> this year as opposed to other years. Running less, cross-
> training on the bike, and resting alot more than I ever
> did before has completely revamped my exercise program,
> and has improved my running fitness greatly compared to
> other years.

It's possible that you were overtraining before. It's hard
to say much about your "after" program without seeing the
"before" program.

Most beginners make the mistake of doing their training runs
way too hard (but still too easy to be effective for speed
work). This creates a high risk of both overtraining and
injury. To run every day, you do need to run most of your
milage at a pace that does not overly tax the muscular
system -- aerobic running. Avoiding running is one way to
avoid taxing the muscular system, but another way is a
combination of adapting to training load and maintaining an
intensity that doesn't leave you beaten down.

> past. I also have alot more power and no feelings of
> overuse in my legs.

I get this just from peaking. For example, doing heavy
training for a while, then bringing milage down. I feel more
energetic on 40 miles per week than I did before on no
training at all, because I adapted to 60 then dropped to 40.

This is how you get to have your cake and eat it too. Sure,
you can consistently do light training and this will produce
fairly good results for a while. But adapting to heavy
training and then reducing the load is historically what has
produced some of the greatest race performances.

> In our evolutionary past, humans probably VERY rarely ran
> day after day after day after day. More likely if they
> were travelling they walked day after day.... To be sure
> long running efforts must have been required at times, but
> this would have been avoided day after day. I highly
> recommend reading "Protein Power Lifeplan" by Dr.s Eades,
> that explains the Paleolithic approach to exercise as well
> as the type of diet humans ate in the past.

Sorry, you've lost me here. I'm sure there's a good reason
that your training protocol works *for you*, but your
ambitious attempt to come up with some deep theory about the
success of your program ignores the fact that there's no
evidence that this training protocol works for anyone else.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Eno]

qTrader wrote:
> I realized after my run today how effective my routine has
> become and I'm noting remarkable progress in my fitness
> this year as opposed to other years. Running less, cross-
> training on the bike, and resting alot more than I ever
> did before has completely revamped my exercise program,
> and has improved my running fitness greatly compared to
> other years.
>
> Right now I'm doing a cyclical program of running,
> followed by biking the next day, followed by a day of
> either full rest or a walk of a few miles at a casual
> pace. I just repeat this cycle over and over, but if the
> weather is particularly bad or something I take another
> day off. I vary my running and cycling times between an
> hour and two hours, depending on how I feel and what I did
> the previous time. I do fartlek runs for speedwork, and I
> also do longer runs and bike rides ever 10 days to 2
> weeks. Since biking and running don't use exactly the same
> muscles, it allows at least 2 days rest between runs and
> bike rides, which is amazing in its effects.

<snip>

I can identify with this. Every time I start heading into
25+ miles/week territory, my body starts complaining. Back
off, mix it up a little, and life is good. I won't get any
faster or stronger this way, but maybe something's trying to
tell me to relax and enjoy life instead of continually
seeking this or that performance boost.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

[Tim Downie]

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

> Sorry, you've lost me here.

Come on Donovan. Is a spammer *that* hard to spot?

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

[Qtrader]

Virginiaz wrote in message <20040506235013.18279.00000745@mb-
m23.aol.com>...
><< Has anyone else found success in a similar approach?>>
>
>what you describe makes a lot of sense. i suppose one major
>challenge --
for
>some of us -- is dealing with the reduced brain
>neurotransmitter
stimulation
>(aka: addiction to exercise) that a less-intensive
>program offers.
>
Yes, this is a good point. While I still feel addicted to
exercise, it's no longer in the same slavish way of going
out and slogging through long boring road miles day after
day. I run trails almost exclusively these days, which is
must more stimulating.

>
>
>
> \\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----
> + +------------------------Oooo----+ oooO
> ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_

[Larry McMahan]

Tim,

Gotta learn to tell the difference between spam and troll!

:-)
Larry

Tim Downie <timdownie2003@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> writes:
: Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

:> Sorry, you've lost me here.

: Come on Donovan. Is a spammer *that* hard to spot?

: Tim

: --
: Remove the obvious to reply by email.

[Qtrader]

Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message ...
>In article <qADmc.28039$wY.3227@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
>qTrader wrote:
>> I realized after my run today how effective my routine
>> has become and I'm noting remarkable progress in my
>> fitness this year as opposed to other years. Running
>> less, cross-training on the bike, and resting alot more
than
>> I ever did before has completely revamped my exercise
>> program, and has improved my running fitness greatly
>> compared to other years.
>
>It's possible that you were overtraining before. It's hard
>to say much
about your
>"after" program without seeing the "before" program.
>
>Most beginners make the mistake of doing their training
>runs way too hard
(but
>still too easy to be effective for speed work). This
>creates a high risk of both overtraining and injury. To run
>every day, you do need to run most of
your
>milage at a pace that does not overly tax the muscular
>system -- aerobic
running.
>Avoiding running is one way to avoid taxing the muscular
>system, but
another way
>is a combination of adapting to training load and
>maintaining an intensity
that
>doesn't leave you beaten down.

I'm now 41 and 've been running since I was 14 playing
soccer. I concur with what you say here about the mistakes
beginners make. I learned about training in the aerobic zone
a long time ago, and when I was doing alot of orienteering
races I ran nearly everyday for a number of years through my
late 20's. After that I ran recreationally for much of my
30's and in the last 5 years I've been entering some
orienteering races again, and I bike and run singletrack
trails for enjoyment. I dont run much on roads and don't do
road races anymore either because I enjoy trails. My
training before the variation I posted here was also cross-
training, but with only an occasional day off a week as
opposed to two solid days off. Everyone has different goals
and different training needs and my post was just a report
about experimenting and about something I think is hard to
learn - that recovery is the key to improvement. If there is
one thing I've learned its that.

>
>> past. I also have alot more power and no feelings of
>> overuse in my legs.
>
>I get this just from peaking. For example, doing heavy
>training for a
while,
>then bringing milage down. I feel more energetic on 40
>miles per week than
I
>did before on no training at all, because I adapted to 60
>then dropped to
40.
>
>This is how you get to have your cake and eat it too.
>Sure, you can
consistently
>do light training and this will produce fairly good results
>for a while.
But
>adapting to heavy training and then reducing the load is
>historically what
has
>produced some of the greatest race performances.

What you describe above is tapering, and yes, I've
experienced the same thing with that. My training is now
done at a slightly higher intensity than in the past, but
with more rest in between efforts. Actually my total
exercise time is up 20% over last year too, so what I'm
doing is not "consistently light" training. I'm not
suggesting that what I do will work for everyone, but I'm
only suggesting that one can experiment and learn from
listening to their body's ability to recover and adjust
their program accordingly.

>
>> In our evolutionary past, humans probably VERY rarely ran
>> day after day after day after day. More likely if they
>> were travelling they walked day after day.... To be sure
>> long running efforts must have been required at times,
>> but this would have been avoided day after day. I highly
recommend
>> reading "Protein Power Lifeplan" by Dr.s Eades, that
>> explains the Paleolithic approach to exercise as well as
>> the type of diet humans ate
in
>> the past.
>
>Sorry, you've lost me here. I'm sure there's a good reason
>that your
training
>protocol works *for you*, but your ambitious attempt to
>come up with some
deep
>theory about the success of your program ignores the fact
>that there's no evidence that this training protocol works
>for anyone else.

Hey its just food for thought, or have you learned all you
wish to learn already? I saw this post called spam I suppose
because of my reference to a book here. Well I don't
subscribe to everything in that or any other book, but I
found that section on exercise intriguing. As a natural born
sprinter who enjoys longer distance events I have my work
cut out for me, so I'm always learning and experimenting.
I'm not trying to propose a deep theory; just sharing a
program that works for me, and suggesting that it might be
worth experimenting with for others. In all the books I've
read about exercise, recovery seems to be the thing that is
key to improvement, but is the hardest thing to optimize.

To show im not spamming the other book i'll mention a few
other ones I consider great reads here:

"Precision Heart Rate Training", Edmund R. Burke ed.
"Training Lactate Pulse-Rate" Peter G.J.M. Janssen "Slow
Burn" Stu Mittleman

>
>Cheers,
>--
>Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Swstudio]

"qTrader" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I realized after my run today how effective my routine has
> become and I'm noting remarkable progress in my fitness
> this year as opposed to other years. Running less, cross-
> training on the bike, and resting alot more
than
> I ever did before has completely revamped my exercise
> program, and has improved my running fitness greatly
> compared to other years.

<snip training info>

> Has anyone else found success in a similar approach?

I have always found that my best race results came when my
training included cross-training, but not really in a
'recovery' sense - I was going to the pool with a friend who
understand proper swim training and doing sets much like
running's interval training. I also was cycling quite a bit.

I think this simply has a lot to do with getting the heart
rate up there more often.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

[Dot]

qTrader wrote:

>I'm only suggesting that one can experiment and learn from
>listening to their body's ability to recover and adjust
>their program accordingly.
>

Yes. This is a common mantra of some of the more experienced
runners here. Know thy recovery.

Dot just a beginner trail runner

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[Doug Freese]

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
news:Qb_mc.31207$Ut1.898537@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> qTrader wrote:
>
> >I'm only suggesting that one can experiment and
> >learn from
> > listening to their body's ability to recover and
> > adjust their
program
> > accordingly.
> >
>
> Yes. This is a common mantra of some of the more
> experienced
runners
> here. Know thy recovery.

A-bleepin-men!!!! When in doubt ask the injured, overtrained
and burned out. All this type A base, power, speed to run
further and faster is just fine but the first ingredient to
master should be REST. Yup, a carefully placed day off to
bake cookies or watch movies or a short walk. Elites and
elite wanna-be's need not respond.

Just finished about 2 1/2 weeks of wonderful slow easy junk
averaging about 25 miles. Rest is my drug of choice.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" dfreese@NOBShvc.rr.com
(remove the NOBS)