The Injury Blues

[Jesse Sheidlowe]

Warning: long, self-indulgent post follows.
---

I'm injured.

And it's really getting me down. I've been avoiding posting
about it up to now because I didn't see much point, but
there's only so long I can go without talking about running,
and that's about to end.

After having done only casual running, mostly as cross-
training for other sports (rowing, cycling), I decided some
months ago that it was time to get serious and devote myself
to running. I made a big effort to train intelligently so I
could avoid injury--even though I thought a lot of the
suggestions were overly conservative. I increased mileage
gradually, I limited the amount of speedwork I did (and only
started it after I had developed a good base), I
incorporated rest days and easier weeks into my training.
And the effort of this restraint was considerable--I really
wanted to hammer harder, or do more mileage or especially
more speedwork. I also tried to do more stretching of my
always inflexible legs.

Everything had been going very well: I built up to a mileage
level in the low 30s per week, comfortably, and though I
hadn't run any races, I was happy with where I seemed to be,
pacewise. A goal of a sub-40m 10K seemed not unreasonable by
the summer.

I suppose the problems started about a month ago. I switched
my shoes from the New Balance 1220 to the NB 765, which felt
good and seemed to offer a similar amount of support in a
slightly lighter shoe. I did a few days on the treadmill,
which felt fine, but on my first day outside, on a rolling-
hill course, I bashed the hell out of my toes, ending up
with an extremely painful black toe. The pain subsided after
a rest day, so I switched my shoes back; a few normal runs
followed. But then I had to bag a speed workout in the
middle, feeling lousy.

I took several rest days after that--I was coming down with
a cold and it seemed a good idea not to risk overtraining,
if that's what it was. Sometime in this period I realized my
ankle was hurting a little, and then more than a little,
too. I took further rest but the ankle didn't improve.

It took two weeks to get in to a doctor, and he quickly
confirmed a pretty classic case of achilles tendinitis. He
gave me orthotics and anti-inflammatories and instructions
to visit a physical therapist. The PT judged me to have very
low arches, and still-inflexible legs, but thinks that I'll
recover well with work and time. I've just started this.
He's got me on assorted stretching and strengthening and ice
and ultrasound; the pain is mostly gone, but of course I
haven't been running at all.

So where does this leave me? The most important thing I'm
realizing is just how much I depend on running now; I really
miss it, and not being able to run is incredibly
frustrating. I'm also irritated that even with the care I
put in to avoiding injury, I still got it--I feel cheated in
a way, like I could have been doing much harder and more
satisfying work and then gotten injured, but here I held
back, which was maddening, yet then got injured anyway.

And there are the worries about the future: how long will it
take until I can run hard again? How careful will I have to
be? Will I have to add another sport to get training that
won't risk another achilles problem? And more practically:
what kind of shoes should I get next time? Will I be doomed
to wear heavy things with orthotics in them, or will I ever
be able to use lighter shoes (light trainers, not racing
flats) for races? (In retrospect, I doubt this could have
been caused by the shoe switch--I didn't do enough mileage
in the 765s, and they're a pretty solid shoe themselves--
it's not like I went from heavy trainers to running high
mileage in racing flats.) (Despite living in New York, I've
been unable to get any good shoe advice--I've been to
several of the specialty running stores around, and no one
has ever looked at the wear of my previous shoes, or watched
how I run in a few different new pairs.)

So there we are. These are all rhetorical questions, by the
way--I'm just expressing them, I'm not seeking or expecting
any answers, if they could even be given. Sorry for the self-
indulgence, but I just needed to do something running-
related, even merely talking about it, so thanks for
reading this far.

Jesse Sheidlower

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> So where does this leave me? The most important thing
> I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
> I really miss it, and not being able to run is
> incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
> with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
> it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
> doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
> gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
> maddening, yet then got injured anyway.

It's tough -- nearly everyone here has been injured at some
time or other and while avoiding ill-advised training
greatly reduces the risks, it does not eliminate them.
People with biomechanical quirks (that's you) are at risk
even with very smart training.

> And there are the worries about the future: how long will
> it take until I can run hard again?

Achilles tendonitis took about 6 months out of my
competitive running. However, I think being more willing to
seek treatment or rest early would have reduced this. The
fact that you've already sought professional assistance is a
very positive sign -- I wasn't smart enough to do this.

Another similar soft tissue injury I had, shinsplints, went
away in a few days because I was willing to accept downtime
very early.

The bottom line is, the more you're willing to accept the
bitter pill of no running in the early stages, the faster
you'll recover.

One way to monitor this injury is that you can always feel
it most when you get out of bed in the morning. I still
often get some soreness there in the morning, though it no
longer interferes with my running. I don't think it's
realistic to wait until there's no soreness in the morning
(you'll be waiting for ever), but you should wait until you
can run without symptoms showing up at all. When you do
return to running you should be at the stage where you don't
feel the injury on a day-to-day basis (e.g. when it's
injured, you sometimes feel it when the calf is stretched
like when you run up stairs or play sport or similar)

> How careful will I have to be? Will I have to add another
> sport to get training that won't risk another achilles
> problem?

Cross-training works well for some people. I'd recommend it.
Unlike you, my injury was caused by fairly ill-advised
training, so I was able to adapt to a demanding running
program over time.

It might be a good idea to add some cross-training, but if
you really give yourself time, you could well be able to run
a on a very demanding program a couple of years down the
road -- don't write it off.

> And more practically: what kind of shoes should I get
> next time?

Motion control or stability.

> Will I be doomed to wear heavy things with orthotics in
> them, or will I ever be able to use lighter shoes (light
> trainers, not racing flats) for races?

Yes. Seriously, I know some competitive runners who also
have various pronation issues, despite the fact that they
are fairly talented. What these runners do is use heavy
shoes with orthotics and the works for their training, but
switch to lightweight trainers or flats for races and
possibly speedwork.

Most of these injuries are chronic stress issues, so unless
you're racing every day, or pushing yourself into
overtraining through racing, the acute stress of a single
race should not cause injury. I wouldn't jump into
lightweight racing shoes just after an injury, but I think
it will be a realistic option for you in the future. Also,
there are lightweight stability shoes (Mizuno Maverick,
Asics DS Trainer, NB 900, Nike Zoom Elite) and even
stability racing flats (Asics DS Racer).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Gleshna]

>(Jesse Sheidlower)

>. He gave me orthotics and anti-inflammatories and
> instructions to visit a physical therapist.

NO!!!!!!!

Geeze, I don't see why the word doesn't get around. Okay,
one more time:

Go to MEDLINE, look up "Heavy Load" "Eccentrics" "Achilles"
You will see a research that was done years ago. It showed
excellent results with chronic achilles problems. The
results have been reinforced since. Why this is not well
known in the running community or even people posting on
this thread baffles me.

If you truly want to fix yourself permanently take the
trouble to find and read the research. Good luck.

Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire

DA LAKES: Da Lake Tube:
http://www.greatlakesurfing.com/images/Gallery/point.jpg Da
new Lake Movie: http://www.unsalted.tv/ Da Bears ???????

[Macelroy]

One of the main reasons you are getting injured is because
you don't understand training and you don't understand
speedwork and you don't understand the purpose of speedwork.
I haven't had achilles tendonitis for many years though I
have run speedwork all the time. Once you understand what
the purpose of speed is all about and that it has to be done
naturally and without force and in good form then it is very
difficult to get injured. I see these incredible idiots out
there running speedwork like they were running from Alcade
terrorists chasing them with bombs. I mean you should see
the expressions on their faces. They are like in deep pain
doing it. And then last week I saw a college coach putting
distance runners through quarter mile repeats with 5 minute
rest intervals which is something that is completely useless
and something I have never done in my entire life. It's
really sad to see that kind of complete ignorance not to
mention the harm and useless training for the athlete. It's
no wonder so many of his runners were injured.

Secondly, you were right in switching back to your other
shoes when you came down with that toe problem. I have 10
pairs of shoes and constantly switch between them. I have
made all kinds of adjustment to shoes that didn't quite
fit right and then got them to fit perfectly. I switch
between shoes to rotate pressure points and other times to
run in some of the lower heeled shoes so as to simulate
running in spikes. Lower heals feel better to me but there
are times where I might like to run in my higher heeled
shoes. I can take almost any foot problem you could come
up with and adjust the shoe so that it would be
comfortable. I can do this because I have had hundreds of
foot problems from shoes in the past and have by trial and
error made the proper adjustments to shoes. To progress
quickly and not like so many of the old ladies on this
board, it is extremely important to stay consistent and
foot problems with shoes have to be resolved immediately.

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) wrote in message
news:<c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> Warning: long, self-indulgent post follows.
> ---
>
> I'm injured.
>
> And it's really getting me down. I've been avoiding
> posting about it up to now because I didn't see much
> point, but there's only so long I can go without talking
> about running, and that's about to end.
>
> After having done only casual running, mostly as cross-
> training for other sports (rowing, cycling), I decided
> some months ago that it was time to get serious and devote
> myself to running. I made a big effort to train
> intelligently so I could avoid injury--even though I
> thought a lot of the suggestions were overly conservative.
> I increased mileage gradually, I limited the amount of
> speedwork I did (and only started it after I had developed
> a good base), I incorporated rest days and easier weeks
> into my training. And the effort of this restraint was considerable--
> I really wanted to hammer harder, or do more mileage or
> especially more speedwork. I also tried to do more
> stretching of my always inflexible legs.
>
> Everything had been going very well: I built up to a
> mileage level in the low 30s per week, comfortably, and
> though I hadn't run any races, I was happy with where I
> seemed to be, pacewise. A goal of a sub-40m 10K seemed not
> unreasonable by the summer.
>
> I suppose the problems started about a month ago. I
> switched my shoes from the New Balance 1220 to the NB 765,
> which felt good and seemed to offer a similar amount of
> support in a slightly lighter shoe. I did a few days on
> the treadmill, which felt fine, but on my first day
> outside, on a rolling-hill course, I bashed the hell out
> of my toes, ending up with an extremely painful black toe.
> The pain subsided after a rest day, so I switched my shoes
> back; a few normal runs followed. But then I had to bag a
> speed workout in the middle, feeling lousy.
>
> I took several rest days after that--I was coming down
> with a cold and it seemed a good idea not to risk
> overtraining, if that's what it was. Sometime in this
> period I realized my ankle was hurting a little, and then
> more than a little, too. I took further rest but the ankle
> didn't improve.
>
> It took two weeks to get in to a doctor, and he quickly
> confirmed a pretty classic case of achilles tendinitis. He
> gave me orthotics and anti-inflammatories and instructions
> to visit a physical therapist. The PT judged me to have
> very low arches, and still-inflexible legs, but thinks
> that I'll recover well with work and time. I've just
> started this. He's got me on assorted stretching and
> strengthening and ice and ultrasound; the pain is mostly
> gone, but of course I haven't been running at all.
>
> So where does this leave me? The most important thing
> I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
> I really miss it, and not being able to run is
> incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
> with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
> it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
> doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
> gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
> maddening, yet then got injured anyway.
>
> And there are the worries about the future: how long will
> it take until I can run hard again? How careful will I
> have to be? Will I have to add another sport to get
> training that won't risk another achilles problem? And
> more practically: what kind of shoes should I get next
> time? Will I be doomed to wear heavy things with orthotics
> in them, or will I ever be able to use lighter shoes
> (light trainers, not racing flats) for races? (In
> retrospect, I doubt this could have been caused by the
> shoe switch--I didn't do enough mileage in the 765s, and
> they're a pretty solid shoe themselves--it's not like I
> went from heavy trainers to running high mileage in racing
> flats.) (Despite living in New York, I've been unable to
> get any good shoe advice--I've been to several of the
> specialty running stores around, and no one has ever
> looked at the wear of my previous shoes, or watched how I
> run in a few different new pairs.)
>
> So there we are. These are all rhetorical questions, by
> the way--I'm just expressing them, I'm not seeking or
> expecting any answers, if they could even be given. Sorry
> for the self-indulgence, but I just needed to do something
> running-related, even merely talking about it, so thanks
> for reading this far.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower

[Joe]

Welcome to the club. My wife just said that your post looks like something
I would have written. :-)

Relax, you're just going through running withdrawal. It will
take a few weeks to wear off. Its like quitting heroin, only
better. ;-)

Keep your endurance and aerobic capacity up on the
elliptical. It will make a huge difference when you start
out again. Start low and go slow when you do start again.

Joe

"Jesse Sheidlower" <jester@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com...
>
> Warning: long, self-indulgent post follows.
> ---
>
> I'm injured.
>
> And it's really getting me down. I've been avoiding
> posting about it up to now because I didn't see much
> point, but there's only so long I can go without talking
> about running, and that's about to end.
>
> After having done only casual running, mostly as cross-
> training for other sports (rowing, cycling), I decided
> some months ago that it was time to get serious and devote
> myself to running. I made a big effort to train
> intelligently so I could avoid injury--even though I
> thought a lot of the suggestions were overly conservative.
> I increased mileage gradually, I limited the amount of
> speedwork I did (and only started it after I had developed
> a good base), I incorporated rest days and easier weeks
> into my training. And the effort of this restraint was considerable--
> I really wanted to hammer harder, or do more mileage or
> especially more speedwork. I also tried to do more
> stretching of my always inflexible legs.
>
> Everything had been going very well: I built up to a
> mileage level in the low 30s per week, comfortably, and
> though I hadn't run any races, I was happy with where I
> seemed to be, pacewise. A goal of a sub-40m 10K seemed not
> unreasonable by the summer.
>
> I suppose the problems started about a month ago. I
> switched my shoes from the New Balance 1220 to the NB 765,
> which felt good and seemed to offer a similar amount of
> support in a slightly lighter shoe. I did a few days on
> the treadmill, which felt fine, but on my first day
> outside, on a rolling-hill course, I bashed the hell out
> of my toes, ending up with an extremely painful black toe.
> The pain subsided after a rest day, so I switched my shoes
> back; a few normal runs followed. But then I had to bag a
> speed workout in the middle, feeling lousy.
>
> I took several rest days after that--I was coming down
> with a cold and it seemed a good idea not to risk
> overtraining, if that's what it was. Sometime in this
> period I realized my ankle was hurting a little, and then
> more than a little, too. I took further rest but the ankle
> didn't improve.
>
> It took two weeks to get in to a doctor, and he quickly
> confirmed a pretty classic case of achilles tendinitis. He
> gave me orthotics and anti-inflammatories and instructions
> to visit a physical therapist. The PT judged me to have
> very low arches, and still-inflexible legs, but thinks
> that I'll recover well with work and time. I've just
> started this. He's got me on assorted stretching and
> strengthening and ice and ultrasound; the pain is mostly
> gone, but of course I haven't been running at all.
>
> So where does this leave me? The most important thing
> I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
> I really miss it, and not being able to run is
> incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
> with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
> it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
> doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
> gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
> maddening, yet then got injured anyway.
>
> And there are the worries about the future: how long will
> it take until I can run hard again? How careful will I
> have to be? Will I have to add another sport to get
> training that won't risk another achilles problem? And
> more practically: what kind of shoes should I get next
> time? Will I be doomed to wear heavy things with orthotics
> in them, or will I ever be able to use lighter shoes
> (light trainers, not racing flats) for races? (In
> retrospect, I doubt this could have been caused by the
> shoe switch--I didn't do enough mileage in the 765s, and
> they're a pretty solid shoe themselves--it's not like I
> went from heavy trainers to running high mileage in racing
> flats.) (Despite living in New York, I've been unable to
> get any good shoe advice--I've been to several of the
> specialty running stores around, and no one has ever
> looked at the wear of my previous shoes, or watched how I
> run in a few different new pairs.)
>
> So there we are. These are all rhetorical questions, by
> the way--I'm just expressing them, I'm not seeking or
> expecting any answers, if they could even be given. Sorry
> for the self-indulgence, but I just needed to do something
> running-related, even merely talking about it, so thanks
> for reading this far.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower

[Dot]

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

>
> It took two weeks to get in to a doctor, and he quickly
> confirmed a pretty classic case of achilles tendinitis. He
> gave me orthotics and anti-inflammatories and instructions
> to visit a physical therapist. The PT judged me to have
> very low arches, and still-inflexible legs, but thinks
> that I'll recover well with work and time. I've just
> started this. He's got me on assorted stretching and
> strengthening and ice and ultrasound; the pain is mostly
> gone, but of course I haven't been running at all.
>
> So where does this leave me?

Perhaps on the road to a more steady running life?

Not sure what the cause of your AT was, but I've had some
recurring AT problems. First about 5 yr ago, when only the
symptoms were treated - ultrasound, massage, etc, but no
exercises. About 2 yr ago, I had a relatively minor
reoccurrence, just about the time I had found a PT who could
do a gait analysis. Anyway, in his gait analysis as well as
overall analysis, he found a number of functional issues -
weird things in my foot/ankle, muscle imbalances, etc. - but
they were all "fixable" things. He prescribed a bunch of
strength and stretching exercises. I've done those plus a
couple more that I found that fit my particular issues. The
best for me has been heel raises, esp. single footed on a
ramp (like running up a hill). I haven't yet, but will add
weights. This becomes very much like the heavy load,
eccentric drills for achilles (I use ramp, not step, which
lessens the stretch so I may not be getting same benefits,
but it works for me), although I hadn't seen the research at
the time I started this. I'm still working on the
strengthening, but am running the trails I like (at least
the achilles isn't the issue). I'm not where I'd like to be
at this point, but I haven't had any significant running
setbacks since last Sept. (knock on wood).

But had a PT not pointed out some of those things and gotten
me straightened around, I'd probably still be having major
recurring problems and taking bandaid approaches. And I know
now that if I don't pay attention to those things
diligently, I *will* have them again. It was a case of going
to someone who looked at the whole body interactions - in a
way that I could never diagnose myself. Your problems may be
simple overuse, or it could be a symptom of underlying
structural and functional issues.

What exercises is he having you do?

>The most important thing I'm realizing is just how much I
>depend on running now; I really miss it, and not being able
>to run is incredibly frustrating.

One of the things I found after my PT gave me some
strengthening exercises is that it gave me some running-
related exercises to do on the non-running days that would
help me run better when I was running. If things didn't feel
quite right for a run or it was really icy or whatever, I
didn't fight pushing the run back a day and doing more
strengthening exercises.

Also using the muscles and tendons after somewhat healed is
extremely important in recovery - need to "remodel" the
connections so you don't get scar tissue buildup. You might
need to restore normal motion before you can strengthen.
Generally totally backing off isn't the best solution,
unless you've torn or broken something. Some motion is
almost always good (there are exceptions), from my limited
experience, anyway.

> I'm also irritated that even with the care I put in to
> avoiding injury, I still got it--I feel cheated in a way,

I'm willing to bet your body was warning you, and you
didn't listen to
it. AT doesn't pop up over night.

>
> And there are the worries about the future: how long will
> it take until I can run hard again? How careful will I
> have to be? Will I have to add another sport to get
> training that won't risk another achilles problem?

It'll depend on the healing rate as well as how well you
follow the exercises and strengthen the achilles area and
foot/ankle in general.

And more practically:
> what kind of shoes should I get next time?

You might ask your PT for shoe recommendations if they're
familiar with running shoes. Mine made specific suggestions
- namely switched me from motion control to stability that
helped with my delayed overpronation. The models were not
available at the running shoe store so he ordered some for
me to try, and they've worked pretty well for me. I do have
an orthotic from the previous podiatrist, which may or may
not be the best in light of what the current PT diagnosed as
cause of my AT. I'm not convinced I've seen the last of the
foot issues as I build more time, but the exercises and
change of shoes do seem to help.

Depending on what caused your AT, it may be an issue of
strengthen the foot and ankle, which I'm presuming may be
some of the exercises he gave you. If it's structural, then
orthotics might be needed. If it's both, you win the jackpot
and get to do exercises *and* have orthotics ;) like
iu. You're not alone by any means.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

[Swstudio]

"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> In article <c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse
> Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > So where does this leave me? The most important thing
> > I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
> > I really miss it, and not being able to run is
> > incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
> > with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
> > it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
> > doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
> > gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
> > maddening, yet then got injured anyway.
>
> It's tough -- nearly everyone here has been injured at
> some time or other and while avoiding ill-advised training
> greatly reduces the risks, it does not eliminate them.
> People with biomechanical quirks (that's you)

What convinces you to declare that a "biomechanical quirk"
caused this injury? He only started a few months ago, and in
fact switched shoes right before the injury occured. The
shoes were clearly ill-fitting, having cause him a painfully
bruised toe. A couple days later (during a break in running)
he notices ankle tenderness.

I think it's clear that there's a number of directions one
could go with this, rather than surmising it as a
"biomechanical quirk". I'm thinking the shoes aggravated
something.

> > Will I be doomed to wear heavy things with orthotics in
> > them, or will I ever be able to use lighter shoes (light
> > trainers, not racing flats) for races?
>
> Yes. Seriously, I know some competitive runners who also
> have various pronation issues, despite the fact that they
> are fairly talented.

This simply isn't true. I have pronation issues that used to
keep me injured all the time, then I switched to racing
flats only (training and racing) with minimalist,
lightweight custom orthotics made with the flats in mind.

So to the original poster - you are NOT doomed to wear heavy
shoes with orthotics. There's a lot of options. Mine is just
one of dozens.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

[Onemarathon]

In article <slrnc9v3ha.4eq.abuse@panix2.panix.com>,
Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:

> In article <c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse
> Sheidlower wrote:
>

> > And more practically: what kind of shoes should I get
> > next time?
>
> Motion control or stability.

but not if the orthotics correct the pronation problem for
you. in that case, a neutral or cushioning shoe is what
you'll wear with the orthotics. no need for the special
features in the shoe there. but without the orthotics....
what Donovan said.

Cam

[.?.]

Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc9v3ha.4eq.abuse@panix2.panix.com>...
> It's tough -- nearly everyone here has been injured at
> some time or other

Only the punks.

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <1fdc560b.0405101601.4f9e14b9@posting.google.com>, macelroy wrote:
> One of the main reasons you are getting injured is because
> you don't understand training and you don't understand
> speedwork and you don't understand the purpose of
> speedwork.

But that hasn't caused you any injury, has it ?

> I haven't had achilles tendonitis for many years

Right, because you haven't trained.

> though I have run speedwork all the time. Once you

Yes, in your dreams you have.

> understand what the purpose of speed is all about and that
> it has to be done naturally and without force

Yes, if you do it in your dreams, then you don't need to
exert any force. It's purely a neural exercise.

> and in good form then it is very difficult to get injured.

Well, you could fall out of the bed or something.

> I see these incredible idiots out there running speedwork
> like they were running from Alcade terrorists chasing them
> with bombs. I mean you should see the expressions on their
> faces. They are like in deep pain doing it. And then last
> week I saw a college coach putting distance runners
> through quarter mile repeats with 5 minute rest intervals
> which is something that is completely useless and
> something I have never done in my entire life. It's really
> sad to see that kind of complete ignorance not to mention
> the harm and useless training for the athlete. It's no
> wonder so many of his runners were injured.

Yeah, it would have been so much easier to just dream about
working out instead.

> Secondly, you were right in switching back to your other
> shoes when you came down with that toe problem. I have
> 10 pairs of shoes and constantly switch between them.

1" heels, 2" heels, 3" heels, 4" heels ... it's one of those
girly things, huh?

> I switch between shoes to rotate pressure points and other
> times to run in some of the lower heeled shoes so as to
> simulate running in spikes. Lower heals feel better to me
> but there are times where I might like to run in my higher
> heeled shoes.

> I can take almost any foot problem you could come up with
> and adjust the shoe so that it would be comfortable. I can
> do this because I have had hundreds of foot problems from
> shoes in the past and have by trial and error made the
> proper adjustments to shoes. To progress quickly and not
> like so many of the old ladies on this board,

You've got to emulate the young drag queens instead, right ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Jesse Sheidlowe]

In article <1fdc560b.0405101601.4f9e14b9@posting.google.com>,
macelroy <macelroy1@winnings.com> wrote:
>One of the main reasons you are getting injured is
>because you don't understand training and you don't
>understand speedwork and you don't understand the purpose
>of speedwork. I haven't had achilles tendonitis for many
>years though I have run speedwork all the time. Once you
>understand what the purpose of speed is all about and
>that it has to be done naturally and without force and in
>good form then it is very difficult to get injured. I see
>these incredible idiots out there running speedwork like
>they were running from Alcade terrorists chasing them
>with bombs. I mean you should see the expressions on
>their faces.

While I liked Donovan's answer, I feel obligated to point
out in addition that whatever it is you think I don't know
about training and speedwork, the fact remains that I did
not do the sort of work you're saying I did. I _wanted_ to,
but all of my speedwork was natural and without force and in
good form and without expressions of pain. I would have much
preferred to kill myself and suffer and limp home, and then
do it again the next day to prove my toughness, but instead
I followed the conservative path.

Which also didn't work, but hey.

Jesse Sheidlower

[Macelroy]

Regarding the running withdrawl he is going through. This
one has to do with more than just wanting to jog. This one
has to do with the compulsive desire to be in great shape.
You see, there is an incredible difference when it comes to
jogging and being in shape to do some real running. There is
a huge amount of adrenaline and other hormones released from
quality running that joggers can only dream about. All those
hormones released from high quality running can be just as
addictive as any drug because they make you feel incredible.
And there is then a compulsive desire to feel like that all
the time. But the problem is that the the high wears off
very quickly after just a couple of days so that is when you
could start feeling sluggish like a jogger again and start
longing to feel pumped up again like before. It's that
adrenaline hormonal pump that he is looking for. It's very
addictive.

"Joe" <joeblow632@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pjVnc.16854$0K.14272@twister.rdc-
kc.rr.com>...
> Welcome to the club. My wife just said that your post
> looks like something I would have written. :-)
>
> Relax, you're just going through running withdrawal. It
> will take a few weeks to wear off. Its like quitting
> heroin, only better. ;-)
>
> Keep your endurance and aerobic capacity up on the
> elliptical. It will make a huge difference when you start
> out again. Start low and go slow when you do start again.
>
> Joe
>
> "Jesse Sheidlower" <jester@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com...
> >
> > Warning: long, self-indulgent post follows.
> > ---
> >
> > I'm injured.
> >
> > And it's really getting me down. I've been avoiding
> > posting about it up to now because I didn't see much
> > point, but there's only so long I can go without talking
> > about running, and that's about to end.
> >
> > After having done only casual running, mostly as cross-
> > training for other sports (rowing, cycling), I decided
> > some months ago that it was time to get serious and
> > devote myself to running. I made a big effort to train
> > intelligently so I could avoid injury--even though I
> > thought a lot of the suggestions were overly
> > conservative. I increased mileage gradually, I limited
> > the amount of speedwork I did (and only started it after
> > I had developed a good base), I incorporated rest days
> > and easier weeks into my training. And the effort of
> > this restraint was considerable--I really wanted to
> > hammer harder, or do more mileage or especially more
> > speedwork. I also tried to do more stretching of my
> > always inflexible legs.
> >
> > Everything had been going very well: I built up to a
> > mileage level in the low 30s per week, comfortably, and
> > though I hadn't run any races, I was happy with where I
> > seemed to be, pacewise. A goal of a sub-40m 10K seemed
> > not unreasonable by the summer.
> >
> > I suppose the problems started about a month ago. I
> > switched my shoes from the New Balance 1220 to the NB
> > 765, which felt good and seemed to offer a similar
> > amount of support in a slightly lighter shoe. I did a
> > few days on the treadmill, which felt fine, but on my
> > first day outside, on a rolling-hill course, I bashed
> > the hell out of my toes, ending up with an extremely
> > painful black toe. The pain subsided after a rest day,
> > so I switched my shoes back; a few normal runs followed.
> > But then I had to bag a speed workout in the middle,
> > feeling lousy.
> >
> > I took several rest days after that--I was coming down
> > with a cold and it seemed a good idea not to risk
> > overtraining, if that's what it was. Sometime in this
> > period I realized my ankle was hurting a little, and
> > then more than a little, too. I took further rest but
> > the ankle didn't improve.
> >
> > It took two weeks to get in to a doctor, and he quickly
> > confirmed a pretty classic case of achilles tendinitis.
> > He gave me orthotics and anti-inflammatories and
> > instructions to visit a physical therapist. The PT
> > judged me to have very low arches, and still-inflexible
> > legs, but thinks that I'll recover well with work and
> > time. I've just started this. He's got me on assorted
> > stretching and strengthening and ice and ultrasound; the
> > pain is mostly gone, but of course I haven't been
> > running at all.
> >
> > So where does this leave me? The most important thing
> > I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
> > I really miss it, and not being able to run is
> > incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
> > with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
> > it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
> > doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
> > gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
> > maddening, yet then got injured anyway.
> >
> > And there are the worries about the future: how long
> > will it take until I can run hard again? How careful
> > will I have to be? Will I have to add another sport to
> > get training that won't risk another achilles problem?
> > And more practically: what kind of shoes should I get
> > next time? Will I be doomed to wear heavy things with
> > orthotics in them, or will I ever be able to use lighter
> > shoes (light trainers, not racing flats) for races? (In
> > retrospect, I doubt this could have been caused by the
> > shoe switch--I didn't do enough mileage in the 765s, and
> > they're a pretty solid shoe themselves--it's not like I
> > went from heavy trainers to running high mileage in
> > racing flats.) (Despite living in New York, I've been
> > unable to get any good shoe advice--I've been to several
> > of the specialty running stores around, and no one has
> > ever looked at the wear of my previous shoes, or watched
> > how I run in a few different new pairs.)
> >
> > So there we are. These are all rhetorical questions, by
> > the way--I'm just expressing them, I'm not seeking or
> > expecting any answers, if they could even be given.
> > Sorry for the self-indulgence, but I just needed to do
> > something running-related, even merely talking about it,
> > so thanks for reading this far.
> >
> > Jesse Sheidlower

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <cONnc.5827$_12.2743@read1.cgocable.net>, SwStudio wrote:
> "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
>> In article <c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse
>> Sheidlower wrote:
>>
>> > So where does this leave me? The most important thing
>> > I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
>> > I really miss it, and not being able to run is
>> > incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
>> > with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
>> > it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
>> > doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
>> > gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
>> > maddening, yet then got injured anyway.
>>
>> It's tough -- nearly everyone here has been injured at
>> some time or other and while avoiding ill-advised
>> training greatly reduces the risks, it does not eliminate
>> them. People with biomechanical quirks (that's you)
>
> What convinces you to declare that a "biomechanical quirk"
> caused this injury?

I'm not convinced that it *caused* this injury. I'm merely
convinced that it's a risk factor.

>> > Will I be doomed to wear heavy things with orthotics in
>> > them, or will I ever be able to use lighter shoes
>> > (light trainers, not racing flats) for races?
>>
>> Yes. Seriously, I know some competitive runners who also
>> have various pronation issues, despite the fact that they
>> are fairly talented.
>
> This simply isn't true. I have pronation issues that used
> to keep me injured all the time, then I switched to racing
> flats only (training and racing) with minimalist,
> lightweight custom orthotics made with the flats in mind.

You're having serious reading comprehension problems today.
I was merely trying to point out that one can go with
heavier trainers and still use lightweight shoes for racing
and/or speedwork. I'm aware that some people have enjoyed
success with less conventional approaches (including
barefoot running). I'm would not/could not stop you or
anyone else from such unorthodox approaches. Someone who
really wants to train in flats will not not, should not
listen to anything I say about the matter anyway. But the
fact remains that I am not comfortable in prescribing such
methods to strangers on the internet.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Jesse Sheidlowe]

Fellow Panician Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

> One way to monitor this injury is that you can always feel
> it most when you get out of bed in the morning. I still
> often get some soreness there in the morning, though it no
> longer interferes with my running.

I did want to state that I don't feel it at all in the
morning. In fact, I don't feel it at all, period. I'm past
the point when it was hurting. But I'm still not stressing
it in any way, of course.

In article <cONnc.5827$_12.2743@read1.cgocable.net>,
SwStudio <shhhh_secrets@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
>> In article <c7o04r$ge0$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse
>> Sheidlower wrote:
>>
>> > So where does this leave me? The most important thing
>> > I'm realizing is just how much I depend on running now;
>> > I really miss it, and not being able to run is
>> > incredibly frustrating. I'm also irritated that even
>> > with the care I put in to avoiding injury, I still got
>> > it--I feel cheated in a way, like I could have been
>> > doing much harder and more satisfying work and then
>> > gotten injured, but here I held back, which was
>> > maddening, yet then got injured anyway.
>>
>> It's tough -- nearly everyone here has been injured at
>> some time or other and while avoiding ill-advised
>> training greatly reduces the risks, it does not eliminate
>> them. People with biomechanical quirks (that's you)
>
>What convinces you to declare that a "biomechanical quirk"
>caused this injury? He only started a few months ago, and
>in fact switched shoes right before the injury occured. The
>shoes were clearly ill-fitting, having cause him a
>painfully bruised toe. A couple days later (during a break
>in running) he notices ankle tenderness.
>
>I think it's clear that there's a number of directions one
>could go with this, rather than surmising it as a
>"biomechanical quirk". I'm thinking the shoes aggravated
>something.

I don't know what direction to go with this either, but the
reason I thought that the change in shoes was _not_
especially important (despite the undeniable fact that there
were fit problems) is that they felt fine the whole time,
and I didn't do that much mileage in them before the problem
occurred. They were relatively similar to the previous pair
(i.e. "supportive cushioning"--I didn't switch from a
stability shoe to a racing flat), they felt good in several
runs (7M recovery, 6M tempo, 6M of speedwork), and then the
9-miler when my toes got bashed. So there was never a point
when my gait felt wrong, or I had any ankle or leg pain, in
28 miles of work.

My expectation would be that I must have been doing some
damage beforehand, or this on its own wouldn't have been
enough to trigger the injury. Thus I'd think that even if
the new shoes had some kind of contributing effect, they
can't have been the main cause of my injury.

But I don't know what I'm talking about.

Jesse Sheidlower

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <c7peue$cq2$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> While I liked Donovan's answer, I feel obligated to
> point out in

[snip]

Don't bother. MacElroy is a troll and a fraud. The only
useful function he plays around here is that he gives us
something to laugh at.

Here's some of his drivel, for your amusement ...

-----
First of all, STAY COMPLETELY OFF THE TREADMILL. It is
absolutely useless. The only thing I would even dare use it
for is recovery. Do absolutely not use it for interval
sessions. It has no correspondence to real running. You have
a motor powering your running and that does you no good.
-----

I'm sorry but is that your first week of running. Can you
give us your age please? Are you maybe 80 years old? Do you
have a weight problem? If not, something is very very wrong.
And you should go get a medical checkup for a heart
condition or something else. Running 9 minute per mile pace
for such short distances is not running. You are going to
have to explain to us why you are running that slow.
-----
Please post your body weight and height. Anyone who is even
20 pounds overweight will find it much more difficult to
run. The average runner to me is around 30 pounds
overweight. So you don't need to explain why running is
difficult and why you can't run more than 5K.

The trouble with all you people is that eating is too
important to you all to give up even for running. Eating and
extra weight are your orst enemy as a runner. It makes me
want to puke when I got out on runs with people and all they
can talk about is what restaurant they are going to eat at
that evening or that they can't wait to get home so they can
eat their Haggendas ice cream. STOP EATING, STOP EATING,
STOP EATING.


--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Macelroy]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) wrote in message
news:<c7peue$cq2$1@panix2.panix.com>... Jesse,

That just supports what I said. If you understood
training better then the likely hood of something like
achilles strains or any other kinds of strains like
that happening are reduced 100 fold. The things I
mentioned are only the tip of the iceberg and your
strains could be caused by any number of reasons which
because of the number of reasons involved you haven't
been able to figure out.

> In article
> <1fdc560b.0405101601.4f9e14b9@posting.google.com>,
> macelroy <macelroy1@winnings.com> wrote:
> >One of the main reasons you are getting injured is
> >because you don't understand training and you don't
> >understand speedwork and you don't understand the purpose
> >of speedwork. I haven't had achilles tendonitis for many
> >years though I have run speedwork all the time. Once you
> >understand what the purpose of speed is all about and
> >that it has to be done naturally and without force and in
> >good form then it is very difficult to get injured. I see
> >these incredible idiots out there running speedwork like
> >they were running from Alcade terrorists chasing them
> >with bombs. I mean you should see the expressions on
> >their faces.
>
> While I liked Donovan's answer, I feel obligated to point
> out in addition that whatever it is you think I don't know
> about training and speedwork, the fact remains that I did
> not do the sort of work you're saying I did. I _wanted_
> to, but all of my speedwork was natural and without force
> and in good form and without expressions of pain. I would
> have much preferred to kill myself and suffer and limp
> home, and then do it again the next day to prove my
> toughness, but instead I followed the conservative path.
>
> Which also didn't work, but hey.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower

[Swstudio]

"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> In article <cONnc.5827$_12.2743@read1.cgocable.net>,
> SwStudio wrote:
> > "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> > This simply isn't true. I have pronation issues that
> > used to keep me injured all the time, then I switched
> > to racing flats only (training and racing) with
> > minimalist, lightweight custom orthotics made with the
> > flats in mind.
>
> You're having serious reading comprehension problems
> today.

Wrong side of the bed again this morning, Donovan?
sheesh! ;-)

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <c7pel9$95n$1@panix2.panix.com>, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> Fellow Panician Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>> One way to monitor this injury is that you can always
>> feel it most when you get out of bed in the morning. I
>> still often get some soreness there in the morning,
>> though it no longer interferes with my running.
>
> I did want to state that I don't feel it at all in the
> morning. In fact, I don't feel it at all, period. I'm past
> the point when it was hurting. But I'm still not stressing
> it in any way, of course.

I think if it's not hurting, and you don't feel anything
there when you run, then you're probably ready to start
running. Cautiously, in footwear that fits properly.

>>What convinces you to declare that a "biomechanical quirk"
>>caused this injury? He only started a few months ago, and
>>in fact switched shoes right before the injury occured.
>>The shoes were clearly ill-fitting, having cause him a
>>painfully bruised toe. A couple days later (during a break
>>in running) he notices ankle tenderness.
>>
>>I think it's clear that there's a number of directions one
>>could go with this, rather than surmising it as a
>>"biomechanical quirk". I'm thinking the shoes aggravated
>>something.
>
> I don't know what direction to go with this either, but
> the reason I thought that the change in shoes was _not_
> especially important (despite the undeniable fact that
> there were fit problems) is that they felt fine the whole
> time, and I didn't do that much mileage in them before the
> problem occurred. They were relatively similar to the
> previous pair (i.e. "supportive cushioning"--I didn't
> switch from a stability shoe to a racing flat), they felt
> good in several runs (7M recovery, 6M tempo, 6M of
> speedwork), and then the 9-miler when my toes got bashed.
> So there was never a point when my gait felt wrong, or I
> had any ankle or leg pain, in 28 miles of work.

28 miles or so is still enough to really screw you up
pretty badly -- that could easily be 40,000 steps or so.
So I wouldn't completely rule out the shoe as a
contributing factor.

> My expectation would be that I must have been doing some
> damage beforehand, or this on its own wouldn't have been
> enough to trigger the injury.

You've already pointed out that you've got biomechanical
problems which make you more vulnerable to injury. This
combined with the wrong footwear could potentially bring on
problems. Fit problems could cause problems with your gait.
For example, if your toes always hurt, it could interfere
with your landing and toe-off.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[Anders Lustig]

jester@panix.com (Jesse Sheidlower) wrote in message news:<c7pel9$95n$1@panix2.panix.com>...

> My expectation would be that I must have been doing some
> damage beforehand, or this on its own wouldn't have been
> enough to trigger the injury. Thus I'd think that even if
> the new shoes had some kind of contributing effect, they
> can't have been the main cause of my injury.

It could well be that every beginning (or restarting) runner
is preprogrammed to have an injury after n hours, no matter
what he does...

OTOH misfitting shoes, whether a size too small or too
large, *can* foul up one´s foot mechanics and render the
shoes´ stability features ineffective.

Anders

[Donovan Rebbech]

In article <2JUnc.40$gr5.10@read1.cgocable.net>, SwStudio wrote:
> "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
>> In article <cONnc.5827$_12.2743@read1.cgocable.net>,
>> SwStudio wrote:
>> > "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
>> > This simply isn't true. I have pronation issues that
>> > used to keep me injured all the time, then I switched
>> > to racing flats only (training and racing) with
>> > minimalist, lightweight custom orthotics made with the
>> > flats in mind.
>>
>> You're having serious reading comprehension
>> problems today.
>
> Wrong side of the bed again this morning, Donovan?
> sheesh! ;-)

Not at all, just being factual if blunt. Hey, at least I'm
not running around telling people that their PRs are
miserable failures (-;

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/