Best mountain bike spoke??
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I have a Raleigh Talus 2003 XC mountain bike with WTB Speed Disc wheelset. I hvae put around 500 trail miles on this bike and I weigh between 240 and 250 lbs. Over the past couple months I have been breaking spokes on the rear wheel like popcorn. I figure the lifetime of the original spokes has been reached and I want to re-lace the wheel with the best spokes available. The wheel is 26" wheel with 32 black spokes. I have heard Wheelsmith and DT spokes are the best. How can I determine which size spokes I need to buy for my wheel and where can I buy them??? Also I have heard black spokes are weaker than stainless steel because they have been anodized. Any truth to that statement? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
The most common reason for breaking spokes has nothing to do with the spokes. Breaking spokes is normally an indicator of a poorly built wheel where the spoke tension is not even throughout the wheel. Spoke tension can obviously also become uneven with heavy use over a period of time. So the sensible thing to do would be to get a new wheel built using a new rim and new spokes, by a reputable wheel builder.
Wheelsmith and DT are both very good brands, you won't go wrong there. Try to get double-butted spokes which are a little lighter for the same amount of strength.
As far as I know there is no difference in the strength between black and silver spokes - the black colouring is simply a coating on the same spoke.
When you say "poorly built wheel." are you referring to the rim or the entire thing (rim, hub, spokes, tire). Can a "poorly built" wheel be fixed to a reliable level, say by re-lacing the wheel with DT Swiss spokes??? I have a WTB Speed Disc Rim which isnt the best but its not the bottom of the line in fact its pretty nice...
Originally posted by gobigjeff
When you say "poorly built wheel." are you referring to the rim or the entire thing (rim, hub, spokes, tire). Can a "poorly built" wheel be fixed to a reliable level, say by re-lacing the wheel with DT Swiss spokes??? I have a WTB Speed Disc Rim which isnt the best but its not the bottom of the line in fact its pretty nice...
By "poorly built" I mean the entire thing. Re-lacing the wheel (by a decent wheel-builder) will work, but the rim must be in good shape.
You may find after stripping the rim out that it is not so true anymore, then a new rim might be a better bet - it'll certainly make the wheelbuilding easier and in the long run would make for a more reliable wheel. For your weight I would suggest something like a Mavic XM819.
Originally posted by gobigjeff
When you say "poorly built wheel." are you referring to the rim or the entire thing (rim, hub, spokes, tire). Can a "poorly built" wheel be fixed to a reliable level, say by re-lacing the wheel with DT Swiss spokes??? I have a WTB Speed Disc Rim which isnt the best but its not the bottom of the line in fact its pretty nice...
Yes, have it rebuilt using DT Competition DB 14/15 spokes.
Wheelsmith and Sapim double butted spokes are also good.
Properly tensioned, stress relieved, and tension balanced.
The builder will do the spoke calculations for proper length.
Black and silver spokes both work equally well.
Does anodizing weaken the spokes at all? I have heard from a bike mechanic that it does. Also is a WTB Speed Disc rim worth re-lacing if it is in good shape? I am thinking about a backup wheel scenario. I weigh 240 lbs and am on a budget. If I do need a new rim whihat rim should I buy given my weight and financial situation?
Originally posted by gobigjeff
Does anodizing weaken the spokes at all? I have heard from a bike mechanic that it does. Also is a WTB Speed Disc rim worth re-lacing if it is in good shape? I am thinking about a backup wheel scenario. I weigh 240 lbs and am on a budget. If I do need a new rim whihat rim should I buy given my weight and financial situation?
The black coating doesn't weaken the spokes.
However, the black coating costs more and doesn't add anything except for looks.
As long as the rim isn't damaged, it is fine.
Quality build with quality double butted spokes is the most important aspect. Disc bakes make the challenge greater due to the fact that they add more load to the spokes.
Tension balance, spoke alignment, and stress relieving are all required.
Originally posted by gobigjeff
I have a Raleigh Talus 2003 XC mountain bike with WTB Speed Disc wheelset. I hvae put around 500 trail miles on this bike and I weigh between 240 and 250 lbs. Over the past couple months I have been breaking spokes on the rear wheel like popcorn. I figure the lifetime of the original spokes has been reached and I want to re-lace the wheel with the best spokes available. The wheel is 26" wheel with 32 black spokes. I have heard Wheelsmith and DT spokes are the best. How can I determine which size spokes I need to buy for my wheel and where can I buy them??? Also I have heard black spokes are weaker than stainless steel because they have been anodized. Any truth to that statement? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
One more thing to consider with the wheel is the quality of the hub, ie how large are the spoke holes in the flange? If they are larger than 2.3mm then you will want to make sure that it is rebuilt with either brass spokehead washers or DT's triple butted Alpine III spokes. Even the "best built" wheel will still suffer spoke breakage sooner in this scenario because the spoke head is still able to move in the hole with every rotation of the wheel thus work-hardening the elbow and making it become brittle. The easiest way to guage if you need either option above is to take a new 14g (2.0mm) spoke and put it in the hole of the flange. Run it in line as if it were running to the rim. Then, try to move it back in the direction of the hub itself. If there is any detectable play then the hole has been made too big (which is very common by the way) and you will need to remedy it. Alpine III spokes have a 13g or 2.3mm head end. Using a brass head washer also works by having the washer form a "cone" shape and keeping the elbow of the spoke tight in the flange hole.
Also, look at using a Salsa brand rim...they have been very nice builds for me and will suit a heavier rider. The Mavic rim already mentioned by someone else would be a good one too.
Originally posted by Philman
One more thing to consider with the wheel is the quality of the hub, ie how large are the spoke holes in the flange? If they are larger than 2.3mm then you will want to make sure that it is rebuilt with either brass spokehead washers or DT's triple butted Alpine III spokes. Even the "best built" wheel will still suffer spoke breakage sooner in this scenario because the spoke head is still able to move in the hole with every rotation of the wheel thus work-hardening the elbow and making it become brittle. The easiest way to guage if you need either option above is to take a new 14g (2.0mm) spoke and put it in the hole of the flange. Run it in line as if it were running to the rim. Then, try to move it back in the direction of the hub itself. If there is any detectable play then the hole has been made too big (which is very common by the way) and you will need to remedy it. Alpine III spokes have a 13g or 2.3mm head end. Using a brass head washer also works by having the washer form a "cone" shape and keeping the elbow of the spoke tight in the flange hole.
Also, look at using a Salsa brand rim...they have been very nice builds for me and will suit a heavier rider. The Mavic rim already mentioned by someone else would be a good one too.
Very good suggestions "Philman".
Rear wheels have this potential movement exaggerated due to pedaling torque. Disc braking adds to the challenge.
Your existing hub may have had some "hole enlargement" due to the spokes moving while you were riding.
Good conformity of spoke to hub flange also helps. Spoke alignment at the hub end makes a difference. You need to attain a tight fit, with no movement. Brass spoke washers are a good investment in durability. Not all hub flanges and spoke holes are the same. Try the "Philman" movement test with a few different hubs. If you get a chance include a Phil Wood hub in the test.
Stiffer rims also make a difference. Salsa rims are harder to find and may weigh 75 to 100 grams more than what you have now.
However, if you look at the percentage weight difference including the rider and total bicycle, it makes no significant difference in the weight aspect. Quality rims make a difference in duraility. The "nice build" refers to rims that provide for balanced tension when the wheel is finished. Some rims don't have consistant quality to allow tension balance and true.
If I were you I'd have my wheel rebuilt with straight guage, 14 gauge spokes and brass nipples, built three-cross. If you use that set-up and an experienced wheel-builder it makes for a pretty bomb-proof wheel. Yes it's a bit heavier than butted spokes, alloy nipples with radial lacing (and all that BS) but at 250 pounds you should be more concerned with durability than light weight (in my opinion). Only replace the rim if it's significantly damaged ( a good wheel builder can tell you). There's no need to replace it otherwise.
Originally posted by meehs
If I were you I'd have my wheel rebuilt with straight guage, 14 gauge spokes and brass nipples, built three-cross. If you use that set-up and an experienced wheel-builder it makes for a pretty bomb-proof wheel. Yes it's a bit heavier than butted spokes, alloy nipples with radial lacing (and all that BS) but at 250 pounds you should be more concerned with durability than light weight (in my opinion). Only replace the rim if it's significantly damaged ( a good wheel builder can tell you). There's no need to replace it otherwise.
Yes "meehs" durability is the key here but it is a common misassumption that a straight guage spoke is a stronger spoke. It is to the degree that the center section is of a larger diameter and, looking at that only would be stronger. But what comes into play is that when the wheel is "overloaded" by a bump the center section of that spoke does not give like that of a double butted spoke...it transmits all the shock to the elbow which already has enough to do. In the end the elbow will still suffer too much abuse and fail. The DT Alpine III spokes are a 13/15/14 guage spoke. The elbow is "beefed-up" to take more abuse from the torsional forces of the disc brake. The center section is drawn down to a 15g spoke to offer a bit of weight savings but also to allow the "flex" to keep the strain off the elbow. The thread end is kept at the prefferable "standard" of 14g. A spoke will very rarely break in the center section no matter what happens to it or due to it's thickness. I have just found it to be true that a very good "professional" built wheel that you want to last longer should be built with butted spokes. Looking at it another way, on a good quality wheel built to good tension the weak link will end up being the rim, not the spokes. So a slightly beefier rim will allow better tension overall and the wheel should last a very long time. But do not compromise a few cents on the spokes that in the end will not last as long.
Originally posted by Philman
Yes "meehs" durability is the key here but it is a common misassumption that a straight guage spoke is a stronger spoke.
Come to think of it, I can't even remember the last time I had to replace a butted spoke because of apparent fatigue failure. Last time I replaced a straight gauge spoke (right side, 3X rear wheel) was last week...
On butted spokes I have had several occasions where the nipples have snapped of (even brass ones) due to branch entanglement and serious tacoing. The elbows however have "all" held up. The rims usually survive, even if the nipple is ripped apart.
I went ahead and bought all the tools to fix broken spokes. I have had so many break that it would save me money to fix them myself. Eventually they will all be brand new:) Oh well because Im paying .99 per spoke.
Originally posted by dabac
Come to think of it, I can't even remember the last time I had to replace a butted spoke because of apparent fatigue failure. Last time I replaced a straight gauge spoke (right side, 3X rear wheel) was last week...
On butted spokes I have had several occasions where the nipples have snapped of (even brass ones) due to branch entanglement and serious tacoing. The elbows however have "all" held up. The rims usually survive, even if the nipple is ripped apart.
I've had to replace two butted spokes in the last year because they broke due to apparent fatigue failure. I've never replaced a straight gauge spoke. Could be coincidence I suppose.
Originally posted by Philman
Yes "meehs" durability is the key here but it is a common misassumption that a straight guage spoke is a stronger spoke. It is to the degree that the center section is of a larger diameter and, looking at that only would be stronger. But what comes into play is that when the wheel is "overloaded" by a bump the center section of that spoke does not give like that of a double butted spoke...it transmits all the shock to the elbow which already has enough to do. In the end the elbow will still suffer too much abuse and fail. The DT Alpine III spokes are a 13/15/14 guage spoke. The elbow is "beefed-up" to take more abuse from the torsional forces of the disc brake. The center section is drawn down to a 15g spoke to offer a bit of weight savings but also to allow the "flex" to keep the strain off the elbow. The thread end is kept at the prefferable "standard" of 14g. A spoke will very rarely break in the center section no matter what happens to it or due to it's thickness. I have just found it to be true that a very good "professional" built wheel that you want to last longer should be built with butted spokes. Looking at it another way, on a good quality wheel built to good tension the weak link will end up being the rim, not the spokes. So a slightly beefier rim will allow better tension overall and the wheel should last a very long time. But do not compromise a few cents on the spokes that in the end will not last as long.
The center section of the spoke is narrower than the spoke bend and the nipple end. Not vice versa as you've suggested here. For example a butted spoke might be 2mm in diameter at the spoke bend, narrow to 1.5mm in the middle and then go back to 2mm in diameter at the nipple end. A straight gauge spoke has no butt (the point at which the spoke diameter narrows) obviously,which creates a (theoretical at least) weak spot in the spoke.
Originally posted by meehs
The center section of the spoke is narrower than the spoke bend and the nipple end. Not vice versa as you've suggested here. For example a butted spoke might be 2mm in diameter at the spoke bend, narrow to 1.5mm in the middle and then go back to 2mm in diameter at the nipple end. A straight gauge spoke has no butt (the point at which the spoke diameter narrows) obviously,which creates a (theoretical at least) weak spot in the spoke.
I greatly apologize if my posting was unclear. I was trying to state that a straight guage spoke is thicker in the center section than a butted spoke will be, but that by virtue of that thickness is not necessarily stronger than it's counterpart due to the forces encountered by the wheel throughout any given rotation. The weakest part of the spoke is not the center section...butted spoke or otherwise. The weakest part is the elbow and is also the part under the most stress. The more "gently" you can treat the elbow the longer the structure will last. The thicker center section of a non-butted spoke simply transmits more shock to the elbow by not being as easily flexed. That is all that I was trying to suggest. Not saying that wheels built with straight guage spokes are bad, I just do not feel that they are a better wheel.
Originally posted by meehs
The center section of the spoke is narrower than the spoke bend and the nipple end. Not vice versa as you've suggested here. For example a butted spoke might be 2mm in diameter at the spoke bend, narrow to 1.5mm in the middle and then go back to 2mm in diameter at the nipple end. A straight gauge spoke has no butt (the point at which the spoke diameter narrows) obviously,which creates a (theoretical at least) weak spot in the spoke.
We read and interpret "philman's" response quite differently.
I read "philman" as butted spokes having a thinner and therefore more elastic center section.
Stress is highest at the elbow and threads.
The increase in elasticity in the center section and work hardening of the spoke wire increases strength.
Durability of the wheel is influenced by many contributions. Fatigue at the elbow is most often the cause of spoke breakage.
Since spokes perform only in tension; keeping all spokes in tension at all times is required. "philman's" point about a sturdier rim is about spreading the dynamic load over more spokes.
Thicker spoke section (13 g. in "philman's" example) is a unique butting on the DT Alpine III spokes. The 13 g. section is at the elbow end, 15 g. (thinnest) for elasiticity in the center section, and 14 g. at the rolled thread end. DT Alpine III spokes help solve the problem of hubs with larger spoke holes.
The original poster has decided to replace a spoke at a time as the old ones break. Even though this wouldn't be my approach, it will work as long as he uses quality replacement spokes and installs them using best practices.
Originally posted by daveornee
We read and interpret "philman's" response quite differently.
I read "philman" as butted spokes having a thinner and therefore more elastic center section.
Stress is highest at the elbow and threads.
The increase in elasticity in the center section and work hardening of the spoke wire increases strength.
Durability of the wheel is influenced by many contributions. Fatigue at the elbow is most often the cause of spoke breakage.
Since spokes perform only in tension; keeping all spokes in tension at all times is required. "philman's" point about a sturdier rim is about spreading the dynamic load over more spokes.
Thicker spoke section (13 g. in "philman's" example) is a unique butting on the DT Alpine III spokes. The 13 g. section is at the elbow end, 15 g. (thinnest) for elasiticity in the center section, and 14 g. at the rolled thread end. DT Alpine III spokes help solve the problem of hubs with larger spoke holes.
The original poster has decided to replace a spoke at a time as the old ones break. Even though this wouldn't be my approach, it will work as long as he uses quality replacement spokes and installs them using best practices.
Yeah, I can see now that I totally misread Philman's post. Sorry!
So what is the best combination of rims and spokes for ultimate strenght and weight???
Originally posted by sugufish
So what is the best combination of rims and spokes for ultimate strenght and weight???
Sugufish, that is a pretty subjective question. It would totally depend on the type of bike and riding situation. A road machine that you want "race wheels" for you can use a lighter rim ie: DT 4.1, Open Pro, Velocity Arrowhead etc and Revolution spokes with alloy nipples...except on the drive side of the rear wheel...a training wheel you would want to select a slightly heavier rim and use 14/15 butted spokes...an mtb with disc brakes I prefer DT's Alpine III spokes...and so forth. But you also must account for rider weight, riding style that is...big gear masher or spinner. With all of these questions answered you can make a good sound choice of components that should make a wheel that can nearly last a lifetime.
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