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Elsewhere, someone posted this on an OU forum

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Gawnsoft
  
"Perhaps the main point of the one you cite is that it would
give responsible parents a lever to insist on their children
wearing cycle helmets. When I started riding motor cycles
nobody thought about wearing helmets except for racing but
now it is accepted practice and has saved lives. A similar
process is coming about with horse riders, without legal
sanctions. I can't quote the statistics off the cuff, but I
believe a significant number of cyclists' injuries are, in
fact, head injuries. A further point worth making is that a
law for wearing cycle helmets does appear to work well in
Australia."

I'm feeling compelled to reply, despite how off-topic the
posters comments were to the discussion of 'Online banking -
is it secure?'

==================

I realise this is now getting substantially off-topic, but
these are well circulated misapprehensions about bicycle
helmet efficacy which I feel quite strongly about and as
they have been raised here, I feel compelled to address
these points here.

These misapprehensions showed up earlier this week for
instance in a newspaper headline in Hull which proclaimed
'A helmet would have saved her' - written of a cyclist who
was killed when a distracted driver hit her with his cement
mixer. (The 'would' was amended to 'could' in later
editions of the paper.
[http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zkilled.htm] )

I'll discuss the reasons why, even though a motorbike helmet
might have saved her, the headline is untrue.

> ...Perhaps the main point of the one you cite is that it
> would give responsible parents a lever to insist on
> their children wearing cycle helmets. When I started
> riding motor cycles nobody thought about wearing helmets
> except for racing but now it is accepted practice and
> has saved lives.

Motorcycle helmets are designed and manufactured to a
significantly different brief to bike helmets - they are
designed for protection in high speed collisions with
motor vehicles. They achieve this by being very
substantial objects.

In contrast, the most stringent bicycle helmet safety
standard (Snell) only designs for a 5 foot fall onto the
ground while stationary (110 Joules). i.e. the energy levels
it protects against are miniscule compared to those involved
in colllisions with motor vehicles. (A typical family saloon
car will possess sufficient energy to overwhelm such a
helmet 700 times over, at only 25mph)

In any event, most helmets available for purchase in the UK
do not meet even this standard, instead meeting only the
much laxer European EN1078.

A similar process is coming about with horse riders, without
legal sanctions.

Again, horse-riding helmets are quite different in design to
bicycle helmets. They are much more akin to construction
site hard hats - being a tough outer layer with good
penetration resistance and little if any holes for
ventilation held clear of the head by straps.

One key reason for the differences between bike helmets and
the others you mention is that neither horse riders nor
motorbikers are providing the motive power for their
transport. Additional weight of helmet does not cause the
same hardships, and there are not the same heat dissipation
requirements. Even at rest a human is typically dumping
100Watts of heat, (20Watts of that comes from the brain
alone) , and needs removed. + of heat from their head. When
carrying out continuous physical exertion this only
increases. Some cyclists are known to peak at over
800Watts). Expanded polystyrene, like that used in bicycle
helmets, is a very good insulator of heat.

In the case of horse helmets, there are also the facts that
horse riders generally have their head higher off the ground
than cyclists to begin with, so need greater protection in
the case of an unplanned dismount; horses are only directed,
not controlled, by their riders. For instance, in case of a
fall from a rearing horse, protection for the back of the
skull is required.

> "I can't quote the statistics off the cuff, but I believe
> a significant number of cyclists' injuries are, in fact,
> head injuries."

The question is, are they head injuries which would be
mitigated by bicycle helmets.

1) A lot of the head injuries recorded are to the face or
chin. Bike helmets do not cover these areas.

2) A lot of cases recorded as fatal head injuries are for
cases where the injuries to the other parts of the body
would, in any case, have been fatal.

3) While only 10% of head injuries while cycling happen due
to motor vehicles, 50% of the fatalities happen from
these. I've already discussed earlier how bike helmets,
unlike motorbike helmets, are only efficacious for drops
to the ground at gentle speed, not for being hit by over
a ton of metal at high speed.

(Despite this, insurance companies acting for drivers who
have killed or seriously injured cyclists have tried to
place contributory negligence on cyclists who were not
wearing helmets. So far, the courts have held that bike
helmets would not have affected the outcomes).

4) Bicycle helmets do not protect against penetrative
impacts by sharp objects - they are, quite literally,
full of holes.

5) Closed skull injuries can often cause the greatest brain
damage (due to rotational shear, etc), and helmets may
well increase the incidence and severity of such trauma
(due to increasing the effective diameter of the head)

US Consumer Product Safety Commission announced (reported in
The New York Times, 29th July 2001) that an increase in
helmet wearing from 18% to 50% between 1991 and 2001 was
associated with a 40% rise in risk of head injury.

6) A child a year dies in the UK from strangulation from
bike helmet chinstraps. It is far from clear that /any/
lives are actually saved by bike helmets. (Although it is
clear that helmets do protect against minor bumps and
scrapes to some parts of the head from unplanned
dismounts).

> "A further point worth making is that a law for wearing
> cycle helmets does appear to work well in Australia."

The Australian statistics show head injury levels were
maintained even once helmets became compulsory. They also
show that cycling levels fell dramatically when helmets
became compulsory.

The BMA's opinion is that any very slight additional risk
posed by cycling is overwhelmed by the benefits of exercise,
so that a law which depressed levels of cycling in children
would paradoxically provide, on balance, overwhelming levels
of health /dis/benefits.

Cheers, and my apologies for going on quite so long,

=======

My key concerns - did I get the annual strangulation
stat correct?

Is the 10% / 50% for RTA correct?

Finally, has anyone yet managed to obtain a copy of
the paper with the 'would have' headline and stick it
on the web?

Anyway - I feel better now I've written this.

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr (http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr/)
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 (http://html.dnsalias.net:1122/) Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Just Zis Guy
  
On Sat, 15 May 2004 23:47:23 +0100, Gawnsoft
<xlucid@users.sourceforge.remove.this.antispam.net> wrote in message
<qg6da099olfcm6kajlabbfqfenrlr00pf8@4ax.com>:

>My key concerns - did I get the annual strangulation
>stat correct?

I don't think so, the cases are rare (2 in Sweden, one in NZ
that I know of)

>Is the 10% / 50% for RTA correct?

That applies for all child injury admissions & fatalities.
In the case of cycling, only 1 out of 20+ deaths in a
typical year is /not/ due to motor vehicle impact.

>Anyway - I feel better now I've written this.

And so you should :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

The Ideas Man
  
>>Motorcycle helmets are ... designed for protection in
>>high speed
collisions with motor vehicles. They achieve this by being
very substantial objects...One key reason for the
differences between bike helmets and the others you mention
is that neither horse riders nor motorbikers are providing
the motive power for their transport....at rest a human is
typically dumping 100Watts of heat, (20Watts of that comes
from the brain alone), and needs removed. + of heat from
their head....physical exertion this only increases.<<

Proposal for an improved cycle helmet:

Requirements
- Helmet 'of more substantial construction' (see motorcycle
helmet standards).
- Forced air ventilation system to overcome heat dissipation
problems. Probably derived from a lightweight air pump
mounted on the riders back, connected via hose.
Construction a power/noise/weight/cost compromise of
similar construction to a hair dryer (without the need of
heated elements). Full helmet integration possible if
future power/weight improvements can be made.
- Minimise impact on riders peripheral vision and hearing.
- Save lives.

Question Would you buy it? Would you wear it?

Regards The ideas man.

Just Zis Guy
  
On Sun, 16 May 2004 12:21:51 +0100, "The ideas man" <The@ideas.man>
wrote in message <c87ita$623$1@news.freedom2surf.net>:

>Proposal for an improved cycle helmet:
>
>Requirements
>- Helmet 'of more substantial construction' (see motorcycle
> helmet standards).
>- Forced air ventilation system to overcome heat
> dissipation problems. Probably derived from a lightweight
> air pump mounted on the riders back, connected via hose.
> Construction a power/noise/weight/cost compromise of
> similar construction to a hair dryer (without the need of
> heated elements). Full helmet integration possible if
> future power/weight improvements can be made.
>- Minimise impact on riders peripheral vision and hearing.
>- Save lives.
>
>Question Would you buy it? Would you wear it?

No, because it would have to be made of Unobtainium and the
extraction of Unobtanium from its ore requires an Ingonetium
catalyst and is *very* environmetally unsound.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Simon Mason
  
"Gawnsoft"
<xlucid@users.sourceforge.remove.this.antispam.net> wrote
in message
> These misapprehensions showed up earlier this week for
> instance in a newspaper headline in Hull which proclaimed
> 'A helmet would have saved her' - written of a cyclist who
> was killed when a distracted driver hit her with his
> cement mixer. (The 'would' was amended to 'could' in later
> editions of the paper.
> [http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zkilled.htm] )

Oh no - If people are going to refer to my site like this,
I'll have to keep my z files on site!

--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'WT
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net (http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/)

Howard
  
> Finally, has anyone yet managed to obtain a copy of the
> paper with the 'would have' headline and stick it on
> the web?
>

See below.

http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/downloads/IreneDorley1.jpg
http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/downloads/IreneDorley2.jpg

The 'journalist' who came up with this can be e-mailed at
ahoughton@hulldailymail.co.uk

The readers letters page is at letters@hulldailymail.co.uk
The papers editor is John Meeham , telephone 01482 315350
Newspaper website http://www.thisishulland (http://www.thisishulland/) eastriding.co.uk

Regards,

Howard.

Roger Hughes
  
Gawnsoft wrote:

> Again, horse-riding helmets are quite different in design
> to bicycle helmets. They are much more akin to
> construction site hard hats - being a tough outer layer
> with good penetration resistance and little if any holes
> for ventilation held clear of the head by straps.

My riding hat ain't; nor are any that I've seen on sale or
in use; the head is in direct contact with cloth covering
a polystyrene foam padding. I think that the outside is a
3mm polycarbonate shell, quite a bit lighter than a
motorbike helmet. Builders' hard hats are just polythene
and air though.

Although there is no general legal compulsion, insurance
companies pretty much enforce helmet wearing for any form of
organised equestrian activity.

> One key reason for the differences between bike helmets
> and the others you mention is that neither horse riders
> nor motorbikers are providing the motive power for their
> transport.

Horse riding does involve a certain amount of exercise, and
the things still get unpleasantly hot for me in most
conditions.

Additional weight of helmet
> does not cause the same hardships, and there are not the
> same heat dissipation requirements. Even at rest a human
> is typically dumping 100Watts of heat, (20Watts of that
> comes from the brain alone) , and needs removed. + of heat
> from their head. When carrying out continuous physical
> exertion this only increases. Some cyclists are known to
> peak at over 800Watts). Expanded polystyrene, like that
> used in bicycle helmets, is a very good insulator of heat.
>
> In the case of horse helmets, there are also the facts
> that horse riders generally have their head higher off the
> ground than cyclists to begin with, so need greater
> protection in the case of an unplanned dismount; horses
> are only directed, not controlled, by their riders. For
> instance, in case of a fall from a rearing horse,
> protection for the back of the skull is required.

In my experience of falling off horses, I can only say that
I've hurt my neck because the riding hat clipped the ground
even though my head was well tucked in (many more years of
helmetless cycling practice). I've only gone over the bars
and over the side, so far, not done the over the back one
yet, though my riding hat doesn't seem to me to come any
further down behind my head than a cycling helmet.

Horse riders also seem to wear body protectors (like a polystyrene-foam-
filled lifejacket); they look horridly uncomfortable to me,
but I think that broken ribs are fairly common.

RH

Roger Hughes
  
Gawnsoft wrote:

> Again, horse-riding helmets are quite different in design
> to bicycle helmets. They are much more akin to
> construction site hard hats - being a tough outer layer
> with good penetration resistance and little if any holes
> for ventilation held clear of the head by straps.

My riding hat ain't; nor are any that I've seen on sale or
in use; the head is in direct contact with cloth covering
a polystyrene foam padding. I think that the outside is a
3mm polycarbonate shell, quite a bit lighter than a
motorbike helmet. Builders' hard hats are just polythene
and air though.

Although there is no general legal compulsion, insurance
companies pretty much enforce helmet wearing for any form of
organised equestrian activity.

> One key reason for the differences between bike helmets
> and the others you mention is that neither horse riders
> nor motorbikers are providing the motive power for their
> transport.

Horse riding does involve a certain amount of exercise, and
the things still get unpleasantly hot for me in most
conditions.

Additional weight of helmet
> does not cause the same hardships, and there are not the
> same heat dissipation requirements. Even at rest a human
> is typically dumping 100Watts of heat, (20Watts of that
> comes from the brain alone) , and needs removed. + of heat
> from their head. When carrying out continuous physical
> exertion this only increases. Some cyclists are known to
> peak at over 800Watts). Expanded polystyrene, like that
> used in bicycle helmets, is a very good insulator of heat.
>
> In the case of horse helmets, there are also the facts
> that horse riders generally have their head higher off the
> ground than cyclists to begin with, so need greater
> protection in the case of an unplanned dismount; horses
> are only directed, not controlled, by their riders. For
> instance, in case of a fall from a rearing horse,
> protection for the back of the skull is required.

In my experience of falling off horses, I can only say that
I've hurt my neck because the riding hat clipped the ground
even though my head was well tucked in (many more years of
helmetless cycling practice). I've only gone over the bars
and over the side, so far, not done the over the back one
yet, though my riding hat doesn't seem to me to come any
further down behind my head than a cycling helmet.

Horse riders also seem to wear body protectors (like a polystyrene-foam-
filled lifejacket); they look horridly uncomfortable to me,
but I think that broken ribs are fairly common.

RH

Zog The Undenia
  
Roger Hughes wrote:

> Horse riding does involve a certain amount of exercise

Then the horses must be glad they don't have to wear
helmets ;-)

(why do I know Bell Helmets are reading this right now and
spotting a gap in the market...)

Roger Hughes
  
Zog The Undeniable wrote:

> Roger Hughes wrote:
>
>> Horse riding does involve a certain amount of exercise
>
>
> Then the horses must be glad they don't have to wear
> helmets ;-)

Can't see it improving an already flaky relationship...

> (why do I know Bell Helmets are reading this right now and
> spotting a gap in the market...)

Should probably be made compulsory for travel in horseboxes,
of course.

RH

Gawnsoft
  
On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:38:50 +0000 (UTC), Roger Hughes
<roger@hughes-MYSPAMFILTERSWORKPRETTYWELLANYWAY-translations.com>
wrote (more or less):

>My riding hat ain't; nor are any that I've seen on sale or
>in use; the head is in direct contact with cloth covering
>a polystyrene foam padding. I think that the outside is a
>3mm polycarbonate shell, quite a bit lighter than a
>motorbike helmet. Builders' hard hats are just polythene
>and air though.

Could you give me details of any standards marked on the
helmet? (I'm starting to get intrigued enough to find out
more preceisely the differences in specs.

And if anyone knows what the specs are for motorbike
helmets, I'd be interested to know these, too.

>> One key reason for the differences between bike helmets
>> and the others you mention is that neither horse riders
>> nor motorbikers are providing the motive power for their
>> transport.
>
>Horse riding does involve a certain amount of exercise, and
>the things still get unpleasantly hot for me in most
>conditions.

But let's face it, 'a certain amount' is not like 'providing
motive power for rider and vehicle'. After all, you have a
1hp horse under you doing the bulk of the work. :-)

>Additional weight of helmet
>> does not cause the same hardships, and there are not the
>> same heat dissipation requirements. Even at rest a human
>> is typically dumping 100Watts of heat, (20Watts of that
>> comes from the brain alone) , and needs removed. + of
>> heat from their head. When carrying out continuous
>> physical exertion this only increases. Some cyclists are
>> known to peak at over 800Watts). Expanded polystyrene,
>> like that used in bicycle helmets, is a very good
>> insulator of heat.
>>
>> In the case of horse helmets, there are also the facts
>> that horse riders generally have their head higher off
>> the ground than cyclists to begin with, so need greater
>> protection in the case of an unplanned dismount; horses
>> are only directed, not controlled, by their riders. For
>> instance, in case of a fall from a rearing horse,
>> protection for the back of the skull is required.
>
>In my experience of falling off horses, I can only say that
>I've hurt my neck because the riding hat clipped the ground
>even though my head was well tucked in (many more years of
>helmetless cycling practice). I've only gone over the bars
>and over the side, so far, not done the over the back one
>yet, though my riding hat doesn't seem to me to come any
>further down behind my head than a cycling helmet.

And it increases the effective size of the head less than a
bike helmet does.

(Horse helmet strength comes from it's hard, thick tough
polycarbonate. The wrapper on a bike helmet is tissue thin.
All its effectiveness comes from the expanded foam).

Have a look at a bike helmet again soon. The current trend
is for huge big spikey lumps on the back - for aero effects.
Imagine falling backwards onto them! (I kust have, and I'm
now a bit disturbed by it)

>Horse riders also seem to wear body protectors (like a polystyrene-foam-
>filled lifejacket); they look horridly uncomfortable to me,
>but I think that broken ribs are fairly common.

Yes - luckily being attacked and viciously kicked by a
bicycle is yet another risk we don't have to suffer, but horse-
folk need to think about.

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr (http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr/)
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 (http://html.dnsalias.net:1122/) Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Peter Amey
  
Gawnsoft wrote:

[snip]
>
>
> Yes - luckily being attacked and viciously kicked by a
> bicycle is yet another risk we don't have to suffer ...
>

Except for fixers, obviously.

Peter

Fat Lad
  
{snippity quote quote}Proposal for an improved cycle helmet:

Requirements
- Helmet 'of more substantial construction' (see motorcycle
helmet standards).
- Forced air ventilation system to overcome heat dissipation
problems. Probably derived from a lightweight air pump
mounted on the riders back, connected via hose.
Construction a power/noise/weight/cost compromise of
similar construction to a hair dryer (without the need of
heated elements). Full helmet integration possible if
future power/weight improvements can be made.
- Minimise impact on riders peripheral vision and hearing.
- Save lives.

Question Would you buy it? Would you wear it?

Regards The ideas man. {?}

I'd wear it!
As long as it has some device to stop me swallowing bugs.
Perhaps one of those blue insect electrocuters positioned just in front of my mouth. Maybe even dynamo powered off a wind turbine on top of my head, brilliant! Dayglo painted fins on the fan and a blue light on my face with occasional sparks has got to raise my visibility.
This is a surefire winner
:D

Roger Hughes
  
Gawnsoft wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:38:50 +0000 (UTC), Roger Hughes <roger@hughes-MYSPAMFILTERSWORKPRETTYWELLANYWAY-
> translations.com> wrote (more or less):
>
>
>>My riding hat ain't; nor are any that I've seen on sale or
>>in use; the head is in direct contact with cloth covering
>>a polystyrene foam padding. I think that the outside is a
>>3mm polycarbonate shell, quite a bit lighter than a
>>motorbike helmet. Builders' hard hats are just polythene
>>and air though.
>
>
> Could you give me details of any standards marked on the
> helmet? (I'm starting to get intrigued enough to find out
> more preceisely the differences in specs.

Unfortunately I've ditched the in-store label that had more
on it, but the label in the hat itself states "BSI Licence
No 6640" and "B.S.EN: 1384.1997". It was bought earlier this
year from Decathlon, and is a Champion (seems to be a pretty
common brand) Euro model ("Made in Great Britain").

I have picked up along the line that the standard generally
applied for various formal requirements (hats lent out by
riding schools, and so on) has changed in the last few
years, so I assume that's the new one.

> And if anyone knows what the specs are for motorbike
> helmets, I'd be interested to know these, too.
>
>
>>>One key reason for the differences between bike helmets
>>>and the others you mention is that neither horse riders
>>>nor motorbikers are providing the motive power for their
>>>transport.
>>
>>Horse riding does involve a certain amount of exercise,
>>and the things still get unpleasantly hot for me in most
>>conditions.
>
>
> But let's face it, 'a certain amount' is not like
> 'providing motive power for rider and vehicle'. After
> all, you have a 1hp horse under you doing the bulk of the
> work. :-)

Indeed (I tested this by riding up a few bits of Black
Mountain the other day on a norse and then doing the Bwlch
yr Efengyl on my Merckx). But it can still hurt quite a bit
after four or five hours. And you can mostly get away with
leaving looking after the bike until the next day...

>>In my experience of falling off horses, I can only say
>>that I've hurt my neck because the riding hat clipped the
>>ground even though my head was well tucked in (many more
>>years of helmetless cycling practice). I've only gone
>>over the bars and over the side, so far, not done the
>>over the back one yet, though my riding hat doesn't seem
>>to me to come any further down behind my head than a
>>cycling helmet.
>
>
> And it increases the effective size of the head less than
> a bike helmet does.
>
> (Horse helmet strength comes from it's hard, thick tough
> polycarbonate. The wrapper on a bike helmet is tissue
> thin. All its effectiveness comes from the expanded foam).
>
> Have a look at a bike helmet again soon. The current trend
> is for huge big spikey lumps on the back - for aero
> effects. Imagine falling backwards onto them! (I kust
> have, and I'm now a bit disturbed by it)

My neck hurts just to think about it (although obviously
more normal scenario is that it you tuck your head in as you
go into a forward roll over the bars [one nice thing about
falling off horses is that nothing gouges chunks out of your
knees as you go over the top] and then the tail of the
helmet pulls your head back out again as it hits the ground
[and of course breaks off to make sure that you know it
saved your life]).

>>Horse riders also seem to wear body protectors (like a polystyrene-foam-
>>filled lifejacket); they look horridly uncomfortable to
>>me, but I think that broken ribs are fairly common.
>
>
> Yes - luckily being attacked and viciously kicked by a
> bicycle is yet another risk we don't have to suffer, but
> horse-folk need to think about.

The body-armour seems to be intended for falls, rather than
getting kicked around the yard (ie people only put it on
just before they get on themselves) but I guess that the
scope for being trodden on may well be significant. Not yet
found any horses that are significantly more vicious and
unpredictable than the competitors in your average thirds
and juniors on Eastway used to be.

Cheers

Roger

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