Polystyrene: The Wonder Material
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From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4101
Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
juggernauts
Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state
the protective abilities of their wares. But politicians,
newspaper headline writers and, it seems, police officers,
appear to believe polystyrene lids are effective in the
sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-
cages would be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a
cycling lollipop lady in Hull died not only because she was
ran down by a cement mixer but because she wasn't wearing a
bicycle helmet...
Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece in
yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could have
saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of Irene
Dorley who was killed when she was hit by a cement mixer
last September.
Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
Wilson who is alleged to have said "If a cycle helmet had
been worn, her injuries may not have been as severe."
David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told police:
"I don't understand how I didn't see her."
The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental death.
In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
chest injuries, could have been saved had they been wearing
cycle helmets.
--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)
Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!
On Mon, 17 May 2004 09:47:43 +0100, Just zis Guy, you know?
<outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> wrote:
> From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-
> news/article.php?id=4101
>
> Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
> juggernauts
I was reading some website the other day, I think it might
have been part of the BBC's web, and it had a section of
what to wear when cycling. Helmets weren't overly promoted
and when mentioning them it had some line like, 'helmets are
made out of polystyrene, the same material as some drinks
cups'. I thought it nicely suggested their limitations
without being overtly negative.
Colin
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2grchfF5rf6kU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
> in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
> have saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of
> Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by
a
> cement mixer last September.
They should have used the later " *would* have saved
her" headline.
--
Simon M.
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-
> news/article.php?id=4101
>
> Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
> juggernauts
>
> Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state
> the protective abilities of their wares. But politicians,
> newspaper headline writers and, it seems, police officers,
> appear to believe polystyrene lids are effective in the
> sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel roll-
> cages would be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a
> cycling lollipop lady in Hull died not only because she
> was ran down by a cement mixer but because she wasn't
> wearing a bicycle helmet...
>
> Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
> in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
> have saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of
> Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by a cement
> mixer last September.
>
> Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
> Wilson who is alleged to have said "If a cycle helmet had
> been worn, her injuries may not have been as severe."
>
> David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told
> police:
>
> "I don't understand how I didn't see her."
>
> The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental
> death.
>
> In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
> Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
> chest injuries, could have been saved had they been
> wearing cycle helmets.
>
I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as
helmet safety and how they work, what their limitations are.
If not, then the coroner should not have taken his advise.
"Pete whelan" <pete.whelan@talk12.com> wrote in message
news:40A8E6CA.5030008@talk12.com...
>
>
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> > From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-
> > news/article.php?id=4101
> >
> > Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect
> > speeding juggernauts
> >
> > Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-
> > state the
protective
> > abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper
> > headline writers
and,
> > it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene
> > lids are
effective
> > in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type
> > steel roll-cages
would
> > be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling
> > lollipop lady in
Hull
> > died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer
> > but because she wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...
> >
> > Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
> > in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
> > have saved her', referring to
an
> > inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed
> > when she was hit
by a
> > cement mixer last September.
> >
> > Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
> > Wilson who is
alleged
> > to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
> > injuries may not have been as severe."
> >
> > David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told
> > police:
> >
> > "I don't understand how I didn't see her."
> >
> > The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental
> > death.
> >
> > In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
> > Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
> > chest injuries, could have been
saved
> > had they been wearing cycle helmets.
> >
>
> I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as
> helmet safety and how they work, what their
> limitations are. If not, then the coroner should not
> have taken his advise.
>
I've always been convinced that my helmet would protect me
against cement mixers. Glad to have been proved right.
Peter
"Pete whelan" <pete.whelan@talk12.com> wrote in message
news:40A8E6CA.5030008@talk12.com...
>
>
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> > From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-
> > news/article.php?id=4101
> >
> > Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect
> > speeding juggernauts
> >
> > Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-
> > state the
protective
> > abilities of their wares. But politicians, newspaper
> > headline writers
and,
> > it seems, police officers, appear to believe polystyrene
> > lids are
effective
> > in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type
> > steel roll-cages
would
> > be of use. According to the Hull Daily Mail, a cycling
> > lollipop lady in
Hull
> > died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer
> > but because she wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...
> >
> > Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
> > in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
> > have saved her', referring to
an
> > inquest into the death of Irene Dorley who was killed
> > when she was hit
by a
> > cement mixer last September.
> >
> > Houghton based his report on a comment from PC Anthony
> > Wilson who is
alleged
> > to have said "If a cycle helmet had been worn, her
> > injuries may not have been as severe."
> >
> > David Bayliss, the driver of the cement mixer, told
> > police:
> >
> > "I don't understand how I didn't see her."
> >
> > The inquest coroner recorded a verdict of accidental
> > death.
> >
> > In the recent helmet compulsion debate in the House of
> > Commons, many MPs reported that children who died from
> > chest injuries, could have been
saved
> > had they been wearing cycle helmets.
> >
>
> I presume this PC is a world-expert on such matters as
> helmet safety and how they work, what their
> limitations are. If not, then the coroner should not
> have taken his advise.
>
I've always been convinced that my helmet would protect me
against cement mixers. Glad to have been proved right.
Peter
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2grchfF5rf6kU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Hull Daily Mail reporter Alistair Houghton wrote a piece
> in yesterday's paper that was headlined 'A helmet could
> have saved her', referring to an inquest into the death of
> Irene Dorley who was killed when she was hit by
a
> cement mixer last September.
However could the dimwit arrive at that conclusion?
Unless of course he has studied the mechanics of protective
wear, carried out a post-mortem on the disceased, is skilled
in accident investigation techniques etc., etc.
--
Regards, Pete
On Mon, 17 May 2004 09:56:00 +0100, "Colin Blackburn"
<colin.blackburn@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>I was reading some website the other day, I think it might
>have been part of the BBC's web, and it had a section of
>what to wear when cycling. Helmets weren't overly promoted
>and when mentioning them it had some line like, 'helmets
>are made out of polystyrene, the same material as some
>drinks cups'. I thought it nicely suggested their
>limitations without being overtly negative.
"Warning, contents may be lukewarm"
Tim
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2grchfF5rf6kU1@uni-berlin.de...
> From BikeBiz http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-
> news/article.php?id=4101
>
> Polystyrene: the wonder material that can deflect speeding
> juggernauts
>
> Bicycle helmet manufacturers are careful not to over-state
> the protective abilities of their wares. But politicians,
> newspaper headline writers and, it seems, police officers,
> appear to believe polystyrene lids are
effective
> in the sort of smashes nothing less than Volvo-type steel
> roll-cages would be of use. According to the Hull Daily
> Mail, a cycling lollipop lady in
Hull
> died not only because she was ran down by a cement mixer
> but because she wasn't wearing a bicycle helmet...
>
Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet might
have saved her, if she was not run over by the cement mixer,
but just knocked down?
Tapio
posted by Tapio Kohonen
[B
Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet might
have saved her, if she was not run over by the cement mixer,
but just knocked down?
Tapio [/B]
Yeah Tapio, perhaps it might be possible and indeed it is conceivable that (insert here whatever you are motivated to believe or wish to be the case). You could similarly argue that (within some bounds) anything is possible if it's conceivable - but for one thing there's an expectation shared by some of us that newspaper headlines shouldn't be at the mercy of hijackers who want to inflict and infect others with their pet beliefs. Those of us who take issue with this have an expectation that journalistic reporting should try to stick to reporting facts, impartially and with balance (admittedly that's a rather hopeful expectation) rather than using its ability to influence in aid of championing its own pet cause.
As other posters have pointed out (on another thread) there's a gap between what can be considered possible (which is speculative) and what is empirically probable (i.e. based on evidence and knowledge). Many of us prefer rigorous reasoning and the standards of science rather than the anxiety alleviating comfort that is afforded in the wishful thinking of what might be possible.
If there's any reluctance to acknowledge that "it is possible that..." then this reticence is, I would suggest, in response to the tendency, typical of some, to turn what's only possible into something that is clearly not.
Roger
> Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
> this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet
> might have saved her, if she was not run over by the
> cement mixer, but just knocked down?
>
> Tapio
1) The ability of a cycle helmet to absorb impacts is
very limited. They are designed to absorb a 12.5 MPH
impact onto a flat surface -about 14 MPH for the
highest rated helmets. These sort of impacts very
rarely lead to a fatality.
2) In high impacts helmets tend to fail catastrophically,
rather then absorbing a significant proportion of the
overall impact.
3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been most
unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.
4) Whatever the individual circumstances of this case it was
wrong to place more emphasis on what the victim might or
might have not done then the negligent behaviour of the
driver who killed her.
5) The 'Would have saved her' and 'a helmet could have saved
her' headlines were simply made up by the 'journalist'
involved. No actually made such a claim.
6) This sort of victim blaming would not be done if the
victim was another driver. Imagine the outcry if a court
made more of the fact that a motorist drove a car that
was not fitted with airbags then the fact they were hit
and killed by a negligent lorry driver. Similarly,
imagine the outcry if the perceived 'solution' to
'pavement cycling' was to argue that pedestrians should
wear helmets and any who did not and were hit by a
cyclist were negligent and at least as much to blame as a
law breaking cyclist!
7) This issue has been tested in the high court and it was
accepted that it is not possible to claim that a helmet
could have reduced serious head injuries. To quote Edward
Leigh, Conservative MP, quoted in Hansard, following the
April 23rd debate on Eric Martlew MP's helmet bill.
"[Helmet expert] Brian Walker [ quotes] a High Court case ‘a
respected materials specialist argued that a cyclist who was
brain injured from what was essentially a fall from their
cycle, without any real forward momentum, would not have had
their injuries reduced or prevented by a cycle helmet. This
event involved contact against a flat tarmac surface with an
impact energy potential of no more than 75 joules ' The
court found in favour of his argument. So a High Court has
decided that cycle helmets do not prevent injury even when
falling from a cycle onto a flat surface , with little
forward momentum. Cycle helmets will almost always perform
much better against a flat surface than any other.' Brian
Walker continues: ‘Referring back to the Court case
mentioned earlier, the very eminent QC under whose
instruction I was privileged to work, tried repeatedly to
persuade the equally eminent neurosurgeons acting for either
side, and the technical expert, to state that one must be
safer wearing a helmet than without. All three refused to do
so, stating th at they had seen severe brain damage and
fatal injury both with and without cycle helmets being worn.
In their view, the performance of cycle helmets is much too
complex a subject for such a sweeping claim to be made."
8) We might add to the above that the mechanisms of brain
injury are also too complex to allow such a claim to be
made. It is often said that the brain has the consistency
of porridge and many serious brain injuries result not
from direct impacts but from the brain rotating or
‘swirling' within the skull, suffering tears where it is
more firmly attached or suffering damage from impacting
against the inside of the skull. Helmets do little to
prevent such injuries and may even make them worse. No
one ever died from a ‘fractured skull' unless this had
brain injuries associated with it.
On 18 May 2004 00:48:50 -0700, Howard wrote:
> 3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been
> most unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.
True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the
original thread.
>
> 4) The 'Would have saved her' and 'a helmet could have
> saved her' headlines were simply made up by the
> 'journalist' involved. No actually made such a claim.
Didn't they? Well, they certainly got very close to making
such a claim. I quote, "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle
helmet had been worn, her injuries may not have been as
severe.'" The implication in his words that the woman was,
at least partially, responsible for her own death can not be
avoided. The error was originally the policeman's and then
compounded by the journalist.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I feel so miserable
without you, it's almost like having you here." -Stephen
Bishop www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
"Tapio Kohonen" <tko@tekla.com> wrote in message news:<1084828260.496584@vanessa.tekla.fi>...
> Hmm...I do not get it, maybe you know more details about
> this than I do. Is it not quite possible that a helmet
> might have saved her, if she was not run over by the
> cement mixer, but just knocked down?
Possible, yes. Probable, no.
--
Dave...
Michael MacClancy:
> "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been worn,
> her injuries may not have been as severe.'" The
> implication in his words that the woman was, at least
> partially, responsible for her own death can not
be
> avoided.
No - his comment relates to the effects of the incident, not
the cause. There is no implication of blame either way.
As it happens, the PC is most probably wrong in his
assessment of the efficacy of cycle helmets but we don't
know that his comment had any bearing on the findings of
the inquest anyway. What matters here is the way the story
was reported.
d.
On Tue, 18 May 2004 10:54:18 +0000 (UTC), davek wrote:
> Michael MacClancy:
>> "PC Anthony Wilson said, 'If a cycle helmet had been
>> worn, her injuries may not have been as severe.'" The
>> implication in his words that the woman was, at least
>> partially, responsible for her own death can not
> be
>> avoided.
>
> No - his comment relates to the effects of the
> incident, not the cause. There is no implication of
> blame either way.
>
I'm sorry, but I think only the most literal of people would
read his statement and fail to infer that because her
injuries may not have been as severe she may not have died
and, therefore, had she decided to wear a helmet she might
not be dead so she may be responsible for her own death. A
bit contorted, I know, but I feel that the PC wanted to
imply that (why else would he have said what he said?) and
the journalist certainly infered
it.
If an unhelmeted motorcyclist died of head injuries almost
everybody would say/think s/he was stupid for not wearing a
helmet and, unfortunately, many people will extend the same
efficacy to cycle helmets.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He is not only dull
himself, he is the cause of dullness in others." -Samuel
Johnson www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
Michael MacClancy <herzelNOSPAM@o2.co.uk> wrote in message news:<20magyrkcxlh.smb2xcghwhy5$.dlg@40tude.net>...
> On 18 May 2004 00:48:50 -0700, Howard wrote:
> > 3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been
> > most unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.
>
> True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the
> original thread.
Possible, yes. Probable, no.
(Is there an echo in here?)
--
Dave...
Michael MacClancy <herzelNOSPAM@o2.co.uk> wrote in message news:<20magyrkcxlh.smb2xcghwhy5$.dlg@40tude.net>...
> On 18 May 2004 00:48:50 -0700, Howard wrote:
> > 3) If she just fell from her cycle she would have been
> > most unlikely to suffer a fatal head injury.
>
> True, but this is possible, as has been discussed in the
> original thread.
Possible, yes. Probable, no.
(Is there an echo in here?)
--
Dave...
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