Traffic policing (mildly OT)
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Hello,
This was posted to uk.local.lincolnshire earlier today; it
may be of interest to some here.
http://www.polfed.org/0304road-policing.pdf
I am slightly concerned by the occurrence of "road fund
license" on the first page, however...
Regards,
-david
On 18/5/04 12:09 pm, in article
slrncajrmi.fa3.David.Nutter@vampire.lincoln.ac.uk, "David Nutter"
<David.Nutter@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This was posted to uk.local.lincolnshire earlier today; it
> may be of interest to some here.
>
> http://www.polfed.org/0304road-policing.pdf
>
> I am slightly concerned by the occurrence of "road fund
> license" on the first page, however...
Old habits die hard..
My thoughts on tracking vehicles/technology led policing
would be to have an RFID (like in the tags in shops to stop
you pinching the goods) in the tax disk. These can be
detected from a considerable distance and linked to a
national computer. Similar things already work for road
tolls in other countries.
within one year, any vehicle with a non current
tax/insurance/MOT will be detectable. Any vehicle with the
wrong tax disk will be detectable through ANPR linking the
tax disk to the registration. This means that selective
stop and search can be performed, picking up
uninsured/untaxed vehicles.
Even better if the vehicle is impounded there and then
and the occupants made to arrange their own transport
from then on.
As there seems to be a direct correlation between the bad
driving that is responsible for a lot of accidents and lack
of insurance etc. this would go a long way towards helping
reduce this kind of problem.
The RFID in the tax disk would also allow point to point
speed controls to be implemented, ie providing a minimum
time for travelling along the M6.
..d
TBH, I'd rather not live in a society where I can be
monitored by the state like that. Sure, it'd have benefits,
but I think that they're massively outweighed by the
consequences for society as a whole.
TBH, I'd rather not live in a society where I can be
monitored by the state like that. Sure, it'd have benefits,
but I think that they're massively outweighed by the
consequences for society as a whole.
David Martin wrote:
> On 18/5/04 12:09 pm, in article
> slrncajrmi.fa3.David.Nutter@vampire.lincoln.ac.uk, "David
> Nutter" <David.Nutter@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> This was posted to uk.local.lincolnshire earlier today;
>> it may be of interest to some here.
>>
>> http://www.polfed.org/0304road-policing.pdf
>>
>> I am slightly concerned by the occurrence of "road fund
>> license" on the first page, however...
>
> Old habits die hard..
>
> My thoughts on tracking vehicles/technology led policing
> would be to have an RFID (like in the tags in shops to
> stop you pinching the goods) in the tax disk. These can be
> detected from a considerable distance and linked to a
> national computer. Similar things already work for road
> tolls in other countries.
I'd rather see some traffic police knocking about to pick up
on bad driving. The only time I ever see any is on the
motorway or driving round of a night trying to spot drunk
drivers / boy racers. The only other times you see them are
speed traps and tax disk checks.
> within one year, any vehicle with a non current
> tax/insurance/MOT will be detectable. Any vehicle with the
> wrong tax disk will be detectable through ANPR linking the
> tax disk to the registration. This means that selective
> stop and search can be performed, picking up
> uninsured/untaxed vehicles.
By who?
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <d.m.a.martin@dundee.ac.uk> breathed:
>As there seems to be a direct correlation between the bad
>driving that is responsible for a lot of accidents and lack
>of insurance etc. this would go a long way towards helping
>reduce this kind of problem.
Agreed 100%!
>The RFID in the tax disk would also allow point to point
>speed controls to be implemented, ie providing a minimum
>time for travelling along the M6.
<mode: tech> Nice idea, quick and easy to implement too.
There are experimental detectors on a section of road in
Leeds already, and in the US I believe they've already put
RFID tags in $20 bills, so putting on in a tax disk should
be fairly easy - though the issuing offices would need
equipment to program the tags at issue time.
If they were going to use it for speed controls though I'd
want to see the motorway limits raised significantly - the
fact is it is possible to cruise most of the M6 (northern
section) at 90 without any major risks, and the lack of
speed cameras on such routes except at roadworks would
suggest this is tacitly allowed by the authorities.
100mph on non-urban motorways as a sop to the road lobby,
while imposing RFID and far more 20mph zones in towns might
work, even the most avid petrol-head doesn't really want
people doing 50mph past primary schools.
RFID might have interesting side-implication though - it
would open the way for possible mandatory licensing of
bikes, with easy detection of unlicensed ones via handheld
units issued to local plod, not to mention what happens if
you combine RFID with national ID cards, and make carrying
them mandatory. </mode>
And from a personal liberties POV, do you really want the
government to be able to track your every movement and build
up a picture of everywhere you go?
--
- Pyromancer.
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk (http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk/) <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk (http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk/) <-- Electronic Metal!
- http://www.revival.stormshadow.com (http://www.revival.stormshadow.com/) <-- The Gothic
Revival.
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <d.m.a.martin@dundee.ac.uk> breathed:
>As there seems to be a direct correlation between the bad
>driving that is responsible for a lot of accidents and lack
>of insurance etc. this would go a long way towards helping
>reduce this kind of problem.
Agreed 100%!
>The RFID in the tax disk would also allow point to point
>speed controls to be implemented, ie providing a minimum
>time for travelling along the M6.
<mode: tech> Nice idea, quick and easy to implement too.
There are experimental detectors on a section of road in
Leeds already, and in the US I believe they've already put
RFID tags in $20 bills, so putting on in a tax disk should
be fairly easy - though the issuing offices would need
equipment to program the tags at issue time.
If they were going to use it for speed controls though I'd
want to see the motorway limits raised significantly - the
fact is it is possible to cruise most of the M6 (northern
section) at 90 without any major risks, and the lack of
speed cameras on such routes except at roadworks would
suggest this is tacitly allowed by the authorities.
100mph on non-urban motorways as a sop to the road lobby,
while imposing RFID and far more 20mph zones in towns might
work, even the most avid petrol-head doesn't really want
people doing 50mph past primary schools.
RFID might have interesting side-implication though - it
would open the way for possible mandatory licensing of
bikes, with easy detection of unlicensed ones via handheld
units issued to local plod, not to mention what happens if
you combine RFID with national ID cards, and make carrying
them mandatory. </mode>
And from a personal liberties POV, do you really want the
government to be able to track your every movement and build
up a picture of everywhere you go?
--
- Pyromancer.
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk (http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk/) <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk (http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk/) <-- Electronic Metal!
- http://www.revival.stormshadow.com (http://www.revival.stormshadow.com/) <-- The Gothic
Revival.
David Martin wrote:
>> I am slightly concerned by the occurrence of "road fund
>> license" on the first page, however...
> Old habits die hard..
Indeed. The Road Fund was wound up by Winston Churchill,
AFAIR, so they are about half a century out of date!
--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)
Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!
David Martin wrote:
>> I am slightly concerned by the occurrence of "road fund
>> license" on the first page, however...
> Old habits die hard..
Indeed. The Road Fund was wound up by Winston Churchill,
AFAIR, so they are about half a century out of date!
--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)
Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!
On 18/5/04 2:27 pm, in article 2guh2mF6q4viU1@uni-berlin.de, "Doki"
<doki@spamtroNspidar.com> wrote:
>> My thoughts on tracking vehicles/technology led policing
>> would be to have an RFID (like in the tags in shops to
>> stop you pinching the goods) in the tax disk. These can
>> be detected from a considerable distance and linked to a
>> national computer. Similar things already work for road
>> tolls in other countries.
>
> I'd rather see some traffic police knocking about to pick
> up on bad driving. The only time I ever see any is on the
> motorway or driving round of a night trying to spot drunk
> drivers / boy racers. The only other times you see them
> are speed traps and tax disk checks.
>
>> within one year, any vehicle with a non current
>> tax/insurance/MOT will be detectable. Any vehicle with
>> the wrong tax disk will be detectable through ANPR
>> linking the tax disk to the registration. This means that
>> selective stop and search can be performed, picking up
>> uninsured/untaxed vehicles.
>
> By who?
>
If you have 5 police doing stop and check for MOT etc. they
can stop about 200 vehicles a day at an immediate cost of a
couple of grand in salary.
These vehicles have been selected as not having a matching
tax disk/registration or other indicator of fault (no
current MOT/insurance etc.)
Allow half of those to be false positives so action is
taken on 100.
100 vehicles caught is a big press thing. Start off with 16
grand in road tax for the vehicles stopped plus fines. Now
with the knock on publicity a proportion of the 1.25 million
un taxed/insured/MOT vehicles in UK will be persuaded to pay
up. Even if this is only 5% there is an immediate financial
benefit to the tax payer of revenue protection.
As with public transport, you don't need to check every
ticket, just have a reasonable expectation that your
ticket may be checked and a large enough penalty if you
don't have one.
This then allows the recovered revenue to be spent on more
important things like shared use paths and helmet promotion.
..d
On 18/5/04 2:27 pm, in article 2guh2mF6q4viU1@uni-berlin.de, "Doki"
<doki@spamtroNspidar.com> wrote:
>> My thoughts on tracking vehicles/technology led policing
>> would be to have an RFID (like in the tags in shops to
>> stop you pinching the goods) in the tax disk. These can
>> be detected from a considerable distance and linked to a
>> national computer. Similar things already work for road
>> tolls in other countries.
>
> I'd rather see some traffic police knocking about to pick
> up on bad driving. The only time I ever see any is on the
> motorway or driving round of a night trying to spot drunk
> drivers / boy racers. The only other times you see them
> are speed traps and tax disk checks.
>
>> within one year, any vehicle with a non current
>> tax/insurance/MOT will be detectable. Any vehicle with
>> the wrong tax disk will be detectable through ANPR
>> linking the tax disk to the registration. This means that
>> selective stop and search can be performed, picking up
>> uninsured/untaxed vehicles.
>
> By who?
>
If you have 5 police doing stop and check for MOT etc. they
can stop about 200 vehicles a day at an immediate cost of a
couple of grand in salary.
These vehicles have been selected as not having a matching
tax disk/registration or other indicator of fault (no
current MOT/insurance etc.)
Allow half of those to be false positives so action is
taken on 100.
100 vehicles caught is a big press thing. Start off with 16
grand in road tax for the vehicles stopped plus fines. Now
with the knock on publicity a proportion of the 1.25 million
un taxed/insured/MOT vehicles in UK will be persuaded to pay
up. Even if this is only 5% there is an immediate financial
benefit to the tax payer of revenue protection.
As with public transport, you don't need to check every
ticket, just have a reasonable expectation that your
ticket may be checked and a large enough penalty if you
don't have one.
This then allows the recovered revenue to be spent on more
important things like shared use paths and helmet promotion.
..d
David Martin wrote:
> This then allows the recovered revenue to be spent on more
> important things like shared use paths and helmet
> promotion.
;-)
David Martin wrote:
> This then allows the recovered revenue to be spent on more
> important things like shared use paths and helmet
> promotion.
;-)
Pyromancer wrote: [snip]
> <mode: tech> Nice idea, quick and easy to implement too.
> There are experimental detectors on a section of road in
> Leeds already, and in the US I believe they've already put
> RFID tags in $20 bills
Urban legend according to discussion on comp.risks recently.
>
> [snip]
Peter
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Peter Amey
<peter.amey@praxis-cs.co.uk> breathed:
>Pyromancer wrote: [snip]
>> <mode: tech> Nice idea, quick and easy to implement too.
>> There are experimental detectors on a section of road in
>> Leeds already, and in the US I believe they've already
>> put RFID tags in $20 bills
>Urban legend according to discussion on comp.risks
>recently.
I did wonder, can't remember what site it was (link from el
Reg?). Claimed they were in Thomas Jefferson's left eye and
that someone had microwaved a batch (causing the tags to
explode) to prove it.
The detectors in Leeds are real (and ugly!) enough
though, presumably the test vehicles have a transponder,
which if this all becomes mandatory will be fitted as
part of the MOT.
--
- Pyromancer.
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk (http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk/) <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk (http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk/) <-- Electronic Metal!
- http://www.revival.stormshadow.com (http://www.revival.stormshadow.com/) <-- The Gothic
Revival.
On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:58:32 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter"
<csucbj@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
>TBH, I'd rather not live in a society where I can be
>monitored by the state like that. Sure, it'd have benefits,
>but I think that they're massively outweighed by the
>consequences for society as a whole.
>
Of course, mass state surveillance is a Bad Thing. It it
tantamount to restrictions on freedom of movement.
Restrictions and monitoring or a single mode of travel does
not come close to being something I could object to on
principle. The citizen effectively enters a social contract;
in return for a license to drive, certain rules must be
obeyed and are enforced by monitoring.
I just don't buy the ABD line that motoring is an intrinsic
right and its monitoring or control are infringements of
civil liberties.
On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:58:32 +0100, "Nathaniel Porter"
<csucbj@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
>TBH, I'd rather not live in a society where I can be
>monitored by the state like that. Sure, it'd have benefits,
>but I think that they're massively outweighed by the
>consequences for society as a whole.
>
Of course, mass state surveillance is a Bad Thing. It it
tantamount to restrictions on freedom of movement.
Restrictions and monitoring or a single mode of travel does
not come close to being something I could object to on
principle. The citizen effectively enters a social contract;
in return for a license to drive, certain rules must be
obeyed and are enforced by monitoring.
I just don't buy the ABD line that motoring is an intrinsic
right and its monitoring or control are infringements of
civil liberties.
On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:58:38 +0100, Pyromancer
<pyromancer@beeching.stormshadow.com> wrote:
>And from a personal liberties POV, do you really want the
>government to be able to track your every movement and
>build up a picture of everywhere you go?
I don't mind them tracking wherever a vehicle moves. That's
a long way from tracking my movements.
On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:58:38 +0100, Pyromancer
<pyromancer@beeching.stormshadow.com> wrote:
>And from a personal liberties POV, do you really want the
>government to be able to track your every movement and
>build up a picture of everywhere you go?
I don't mind them tracking wherever a vehicle moves. That's
a long way from tracking my movements.
"[Not Responding]" <not_responding@dev.null.invalid> wrote in message
news:l5fka0l7l5f3eoo7t9r476fst3drtph93l@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:58:38 +0100, Pyromancer
> <pyromancer@beeching.stormshadow.com> wrote:
>
> >And from a personal liberties POV, do you really want the
> >government to be able to track your every movement and
> >build up a picture of everywhere you go?
>
> I don't mind them tracking wherever a vehicle moves.
> That's a long way from tracking my movements.
s/vehicle/motor vehicle/
cheers, clive
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