Leblanc accused of double standards over Millar
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There was an interesting French program on doping last night on French
TV on the 'affaire festina'
<url:http://www.m6.fr/html/emissions/secrets_actu/index.shtml>
The program also covered the Italian police investigation in
2001 into doping during the Giro when police raided hotel
rooms of the peleton and found 'enough drugs to stock a
hospital' included EPO and Cocaine.
95 of the cyclists have been charged with drugs offences and
are awaiting trial. Jean-Marie Leblanc was accused of double
standards as many of those cyclists will take part in this
year's TdF, either as competitors or as consultants to race
teams. At the same time Scotland's David Millar has been
excluded on the grounds that he is the subject, but has not
been charged, of a police investigation.
The former sports minister Marie-George Buffet, a communist,
and a number of experts includng the former race doctor,
thought that this years tour should be stopped in order to
try and clean up the peleton once and for all. Jean-François
Lamour, the current sports minister in the right wing
government said he didn't favour the tour but the police
would continue to investigate doping in cycling and in other
sports, such as football (soccer) where drug taking is even
more common.
Participants said it was not a French problem, as there
were strict controls in France. The ex-tour doctor said
this was not the case as Cofidis proved and it was indeed a
French problem.
Talk then turned to LA, I was surprised that most of the
participants felt that LA had taken drugs. The journalist
pointed out that the book was not proof but merely a witness
which may or may not prove accurate. Participants said LA
would have to watch his back as many people in the pro
peleton dislike him personally.
Finally I liked the bit about Virinque. When his team mate
asked how come he never cracked over two years of intense
police investigation and media pressure his friend said
"Virinque is a hard man, to ride mountain stages like he
does you have to be tought both mentally and physically".
And Millar who allegedly cracked during 48 hours of
questionning? Go figure.
David Off wrote:
> There was an interesting French program on doping last
> night on French TV on the 'affaire festina' <url:http://w-
> ww.m6.fr/html/emissions/secrets_actu/index.shtml>
[snip]
> Talk then turned to LA, I was surprised that most of the
> participants felt that LA had taken drugs.
I saw the first part but fell asleep before they got around
to LANCE so I'm going by what you say, but why would you be
surprised that most of them thought he was doping? (I'm not
taking a position on whether he dopes or not, I'm just
asking why you're surprised.)
David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in message news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>...
>
> The former sports minister Marie-George Buffet, a
> communist, and a number of experts includng the former
> race doctor, thought that this years tour should be
> stopped in order to try and clean up the peleton once and
> for all. Jean-François Lamour, the current sports minister
> in the right wing government said he didn't favour the
> tour but the police would continue to investigate doping
> in cycling and in other sports, such as football (soccer)
> where drug taking is even more common.
Marie-George Buffet was quite a good minister of sport
despitre being a commie (I think she's party secretary now).
In the program, she also reported strong pressure on her to
let up on doping investigation. On the other hand, I figured
that Jean-Francois Lamour would be terrible when at one of
his first official public appearance as minister, he was in
the tour director vehicle following the 2002 Ventoux stage,
and I saw him applaud vigourously as Virenque crossed the
finish line. His decision to disallow French teams from
having random masseurs was disastrous, but in the light of
the recent Armstrong book, might have a beneficial side
effect, that is, that licensed therapists may not ethically
be allowed to disclose privileged massage information.
>
> Talk then turned to LA, I was surprised that most of the
> participants felt that LA had taken drugs. The journalist
> pointed out that the book was not proof but merely a
> witness which may or may not prove accurate. Participants
> said LA would have to watch his back as many people in the
> pro peleton dislike him personally.
The Armstrong report was not entirely fair, because they
only showed him in a 2000 interview, the period when he was
most annoyed at the French media.
-ilan
David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in message news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>...
>
> Finally I liked the bit about Virinque. When his team mate
> asked how come he never cracked over two years of intense
> police investigation and media pressure his friend said
> "Virinque is a hard man, to ride mountain stages like he
> does you have to be tought both mentally and physically".
> And Millar who allegedly cracked during 48 hours of
> questionning? Go figure.
A few weeks ago, I was watching a report about a long term
investigation into a murder in some remote community in
France. At one point, they talked about the fact that one of
the farmers involved was finally proved guilty by DNA
testing. The program then reported that this caused some
other person to be immediately released from jail. This
person had been incarcerated since having confessed to the
crime during police questioning they matter of factly noted.
Other cases are Patrick Dils, who spent 14 years in jail
after confessing to a crime he did not commit.
My advice to anyone in France: Avoid being in police custody
"garde a vue".
-ilan
"Ilan Vardi" <ilanpi@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b26c09dc.0406281120.1b4eaa8f@posting.google.com...
> David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in
> message
news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>...
> >
> > The former sports minister Marie-George Buffet, a
> > communist, and a number of experts includng the former
> > race doctor, thought that this years tour should be
> > stopped in order to try and clean up the peleton once
> > and for all. Jean-François Lamour, the current sports
> > minister in the right wing government said he didn't
> > favour the tour but the police would continue to
> > investigate doping in cycling and in other sports, such
> > as football (soccer) where drug taking is even more
> > common.
>
> Marie-George Buffet was quite a good minister of sport
> despitre being a commie (I think she's party secretary
> now). In the program, she also reported strong pressure on
> her to let up on doping
investigation.
> On the other hand, I figured that Jean-Francois Lamour
> would be terrible when at one of his first official public
> appearance as minister, he was in the tour director
> vehicle following the 2002 Ventoux stage, and I saw him
> applaud vigourously as Virenque crossed the finish line.
> His decision to disallow French teams from having random
> masseurs was disastrous, but in the light of the recent
> Armstrong book, might have a beneficial side effect, that
> is, that licensed therapists may not ethically be allowed
> to disclose privileged massage information.
>
I'm not certain that French law would recognize such a
privilege and if it did, whether or not it would cover a
crime which the physio knew about and perhaps
participated in.
David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in message news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>...
> once and for all. Jean-François Lamour, the current sports
> minister in the right wing government said he didn't
> favour the tour but the police would continue to
> investigate doping in cycling and in other sports, such as
> football (soccer) where drug taking is even more common.
On the program, they showed a quote of Lamour from a radio
interview where he said: "The only athletes who get caught
for doping are the morons" (paraphrasing from memory). This
certainly seems true in the Millar affair.
-ilan
In article <b26c09dc.0406281126.276ef642@posting.google.com>,
ilanpi@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote:
> David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in
> message news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-
> 07.noos.net>...
> >
> > Finally I liked the bit about Virinque. When his team
> > mate asked how come he never cracked over two years of
> > intense police investigation and media pressure his
> > friend said "Virinque is a hard man, to ride mountain
> > stages like he does you have to be tought both mentally
> > and physically". And Millar who allegedly cracked during
> > 48 hours of questionning? Go figure.
>
> A few weeks ago, I was watching a report about a long term
> investigation into a murder in some remote community in
> France. At one point, they talked about the fact that one
> of the farmers involved was finally proved guilty by DNA
> testing. The program then reported that this caused some
> other person to be immediately released from jail. This
> person had been incarcerated since having confessed to the
> crime during police questioning they matter of factly
> noted. Other cases are Patrick Dils, who spent 14 years in
> jail after confessing to a crime he did not commit.
>
> My advice to anyone in France: Avoid being in police
> custody "garde a vue".
>
> -ilan
Contrary to what many Americans believe, in France the
accused is presumed innocent by law too. However, in
practice and by tradition, when you arrive for trial, if you
have admitted anything, you are facing an uphill battle,
even if some of the evidence goes your way. A police
investigator (and the "juge d'instruction" of course) knows
that if he gets an admission of guilt, the case is pretty
much in the bag. Obviously, this encourages the police to be
"persuasive" during the guarde a vue. Sometimes a side
effect is that the investigation proper is botched, with
most of the energy going into the interrogation.
The duration of the standard "guarde a vue" is 24h. It can
be fairly easily extended to 48h by the juge d'instruction.
It cannot exceed 4 days. If you're in "garde a vue", your
lawyer is only allowed to interveer 20h after the GaV
started (36h for proxenetism and 72h for drug trafic and
terrorism affairs).
Definitely, as Ilan said, not a nice situation to be in.
jyh.
--
=====================================================================
jean-yves herve' /\ Department of Computer Science \/ e-
mail --> jyh@cs.uri.edu and Statistics /\ University of
Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400 Kingston, RI 02881-
0816 /\ Fax. --> (401) 874-4617 USA \/
=====================================================================
B. Lafferty <Magni@Italia.com> wrote:
> "Ilan Vardi" <ilanpi@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > His decision to disallow French teams from having random
> > masseurs was disastrous, but in the light of the recent
> > Armstrong book, might have a beneficial side effect,
> > that is, that licensed therapists may not ethically be
> > allowed to disclose privileged massage information.
> I'm not certain that French law would recognize such a
> privilege and if it did, whether or not it would cover a
> crime which the physio knew about and perhaps
> participated in.
Lafferty,
You're beginning to remind me of the "I'm a LOY-yer" woman
on the Saturday Night Live parody of "The View." Only you
could take the phrase "privileged massage information"
seriously.
Ben When masseurs are outlawed only outlaws will get
massages.
"Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:40e12560$1@darkstar...
> B. Lafferty <Magni@Italia.com> wrote:
> > "Ilan Vardi" <ilanpi@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > > His decision to disallow French teams from having
> > > random masseurs was disastrous, but in the light of
> > > the recent Armstrong book, might have a beneficial
> > > side effect, that is, that licensed therapists may not
> > > ethically be allowed to disclose privileged massage
> > > information.
>
> > I'm not certain that French law would recognize such a
> > privilege and if
it
> > did, whether or not it would cover a crime which the
> > physio knew about
and
> > perhaps participated in.
>
> Lafferty,
>
> You're beginning to remind me of the "I'm a LOY-yer" woman
> on the Saturday Night Live parody of "The View." Only you
> could take the phrase "privileged massage information"
> seriously.
>
> Ben When masseurs are outlawed only outlaws will get
> massages.
It's the curse of being a lawyer. Mark Twain said that once
one became a river boat pilot, one could never look at the
river in the same way. A ripple wasn't just pretty, it was a
sand bar, etc. Same with the law.
Ilan Vardi wrote:
> David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in
> message news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-
> 07.noos.net>...
>
>
>>once and for all. Jean-François Lamour, the current sports
>>minister in the right wing government said he didn't
>>favour the tour but the police would continue to
>>investigate doping in cycling and in other sports, such as
>>football (soccer) where drug taking is even more common.
>
>
> On the program, they showed a quote of Lamour from a radio
> interview where he said: "The only athletes who get caught
> for doping are the morons" (paraphrasing from memory).
> This certainly seems true in the Millar affair.
I found that bit interesting. I'm surprised Lamour said it,
it kind of implies the whole anti-drugs effort not having
the hoped for effect.
Robert Chung wrote:
>
> I'm going by what you say, but why would you be surprised
> that most of them thought he was doping? (I'm not taking a
> position on whether he dopes or not, I'm just asking why
> you're surprised.)
Dunno, just thought there would be more of a cross-section
of opinion. In the end the presenter had to calm things down
and say that LA had not been found doping.
David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in message news:<40e2d465$0$28117$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>...
> Ilan Vardi wrote:
> >
> > On the program, they showed a quote of Lamour from a
> > radio interview where he said: "The only athletes who
> > get caught for doping are the morons" (paraphrasing from
> > memory). This certainly seems true in the Millar affair.
>
> I found that bit interesting. I'm surprised Lamour said
> it, it kind of implies the whole anti-drugs effort not
> having the hoped for effect.
For me, Lamour's statement made me realise why Buffet was
much better than him. The point is that Lamour was an
Olympic champion and so is too deeply involved in the
problem. Even if he didn't take drugs, his statement implies
that he knew people who did, and that he had even more
contempt for the people who took drugs and got caught than
for the ones who got away with it. Not a very good attitude
for resolving the doping problem. On the other hand, Marie-
George Buffet is exterior and so represented someone who was
there to clean things up when the sport wasn't able to do it
itself, kind of like special prosecutor Archibald Cox. She
clearly gave me impression when I heard her interviewed
during her mandate.
-ilan
Detecteeve Henri Sipowicz?
ilanpi@yahoo.com (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
news:<b26c09dc.0406281126.276ef642@posting.google.com>...
> David Off <david.off_dumpthisbit_@voila.fr> wrote in
> message news:<40dfd714$0$351$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-
> 07.noos.net>...
> >
> > Finally I liked the bit about Virinque. When his team
> > mate asked how come he never cracked over two years of
> > intense police investigation and media pressure his
> > friend said "Virinque is a hard man, to ride mountain
> > stages like he does you have to be tought both mentally
> > and physically". And Millar who allegedly cracked during
> > 48 hours of questionning? Go figure.
>
> A few weeks ago, I was watching a report about a long term
> investigation into a murder in some remote community in
> France. At one point, they talked about the fact that one
> of the farmers involved was finally proved guilty by DNA
> testing. The program then reported that this caused some
> other person to be immediately released from jail. This
> person had been incarcerated since having confessed to the
> crime during police questioning they matter of factly
> noted. Other cases are Patrick Dils, who spent 14 years in
> jail after confessing to a crime he did not commit.
>
> My advice to anyone in France: Avoid being in police
> custody "garde a vue".
>
> -ilan
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