Arrrgh! Derailleur failure!

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The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on
my livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new
annoyances.

The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on
one of the lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have
somehow sheared off. This comes as something of a shock to
me, since my brother has been riding it for a week now
without incident.

What do I do now?

Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter
how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and
French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

I really really *really* want to avoid having to buy a new
one.....*sigh*

-Luigi

In article <6vj0e05ob6rkfs39emr4hgt1vjslv8p8p3@4ax.com>,
luigi12081 @cox.net says...
> The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on
> my livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new
> annoyances.
>
> The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on
> one of the lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have
> somehow sheared off. This comes as something of a shock to
> me, since my brother has been riding it for a week now
> without incident.
>
> What do I do now?
>
> Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter
> how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and
> French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not
to lose the very small bearings, and look closely at how the
pawl springs go in when you first take it apart. It's a bit
tedious but not difficult. The hardest part is getting the
lock ring off.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber
<ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:

>In article <6vj0e05ob6rkfs39emr4hgt1vjslv8p8p3@4ax.com>,
>luigi12081 @cox.net says...
>> The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document
>> on my livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new
>> annoyances.
>>
>> The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on
>> one of the lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have
>> somehow sheared off. This comes as something of a shock
>> to me, since my brother has been riding it for a week now
>> without incident.
>>
>> What do I do now?
>>
>> Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no
>> matter how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old
>> and French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do I do?
>
>Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not
>to lose the very small bearings, and look closely at how
>the pawl springs go in when you first take it apart. It's a
>bit tedious but not difficult. The hardest part is getting
>the lock ring off.

....and getting the tools necessary for the job, right?

Chain whip(s) Freewheel puller Bench vise....

*sigh*.

The most frustrating thing about all this is that IT WAS
RUNNING FINE JUST LAST WEEK .

Here I was thinking that I'd found a fairly cheap bike
for my little brother. But now I'm beginning to feel
pretty annoyed.

The derailleur might not be a real problem, since I've got
an old Shimano rear deraileur attached to a frame that is
slowly being cannibalized for parts--provided I can fit an
adaptor claw that will fit the derailleur.

But the freewheel is a headache and a half. It's old, it's
French, and non-interchangeable with anything else. Sheldon
Brown lists the precise part on the Harris Cyclery website
for thirty bucks, which would be fine if I had the tools to
pull the present one....

I am rapidly approaching the point beyond which any
further monetary investment in this bike would start to be
futile. arrrgh.

-Luigi

In article <f6s0e0ll4n4q44o63r1v473qf4u7mp7260@4ax.com>,
luigi12081 @cox.net says...
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber
> <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <6vj0e05ob6rkfs39emr4hgt1vjslv8p8p3@4ax.com>,
> >luigi12081 @cox.net says...
> >> The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document
> >> on my livejournal (link below)--continues to produce
> >> new annoyances.
> >>
> >> The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth
> >> on one of the lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur
> >> have somehow sheared off. This comes as something of a
> >> shock to me, since my brother has been riding it for a
> >> week now without incident.
> >>
> >> What do I do now?
> >>
> >> Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no
> >> matter how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's
> >> old and French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do
> >> I do?
> >
> >Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful
> >not to lose the very small bearings, and look closely at
> >how the pawl springs go in when you first take it apart.
> >It's a bit tedious but not difficult. The hardest part is
> >getting the lock ring off.
>
> ....and getting the tools necessary for the job, right?
>
> Chain whip(s)

Not needed at all.

> Freewheel puller

Required, but cheap ($5 or so).

> Bench vise....

Helpful, but not really necessary.

The only other thing you really need is a nailset and a
hammer to get the lock ring loose. It's designed to use a
two-pin spanner, but I've never managed to get one loose
with that.

....

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

Luigi de Guzman <luigi12081@cox.net> wrote:

> Chain whip(s) Freewheel puller Bench vise....

> *sigh*.

> The most frustrating thing about all this is that IT WAS
> RUNNING FINE JUST LAST WEEK .

> Here I was thinking that I'd found a fairly cheap bike for
> my little brother. But now I'm beginning to feel pretty
> annoyed.

> The derailleur might not be a real problem, since I've got
> an old Shimano rear deraileur attached to a frame that is
> slowly being cannibalized for parts--provided I can fit an
> adaptor claw that will fit the derailleur.

> But the freewheel is a headache and a half. It's old, it's
> French, and non-interchangeable with anything else.
> Sheldon Brown lists the precise part on the Harris Cyclery
> website for thirty bucks, which would be fine if I had the
> tools to pull the present one....

> I am rapidly approaching the point beyond which any
> further monetary investment in this bike would start to be
> futile. arrrgh.

Welcome to the world of project bikes. Sometimes the best
thing is to find yet another cheap (cast-off, yard sale,
thrift store) bike and make 1 from 2. But in your
specific case:

Derailleur - old Shimano will probably work way better than
Simplex anyway. Adaptor claw - probably can be found cheaply
at LBS that has been around for a while. You want the kind
with an old codger, not a chain store.

Freewheel - Chainwhip not needed except to take cogs off the
body. Easiest solution is to drip oil into the seam between
fixed and rotating parts. If you really want to take the
body apart, don't actually have to remove it from the bike.
Use a nail set (punch) as David Kerber suggested to remove
the left-threaded cone. However, overhauling freewheels is a
PITA and may not be worth your time. Good "learning
experience" though.

Removing freewheel - need a remover and a big wrench.
However, easier solution is to take the wheel to the
LBS where they should charge only a few bucks (if
that) to do it.

Replacing freewheel - French bike, French hub, and French
freewheel may mean FW is French threaded, but it might still
be ISO threaded anyway. If any one of the three is non-
French, chances are you have an ISO freewheel. Not sure a
replacement French freewheel is a good investment - might be
worth riding the bike until another rear wheel can be
scavenged. Keep in mind that the bearings in a freewheel
only spin when coasting anyway, so the primary effect of a
little grit is to make noise.

Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> It's old and French {...} What do I do?

Surrender.

Bill "too easy, I know" S.

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> Removing freewheel - need a remover and a big wrench.
> However, easier solution is to take the wheel to the
> LBS where they should charge only a few bucks (if that)
> to do it.

Use a bench vise, not a wrench. Especially if it has been on
the bike for a while, or wasn't greased when put on. I've
had lots not come off with a big wrench that were easy with
a vise. You have to hold the wheel anyway so you might as
well turn it to remove the freewheel. It's the point of
maximum leverage.

If the pawls work, I'd leave the freewheel alone. Nothing is
moving when the pawls are engaged, so you're not losing
energy or anything. You won't go faster with a clean
freewheel.
--
Ron Hardin rhhardin@mindspring.com

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:36:47 -0400, Luigi de Guzman
<luigi12081@cox.net> wrote:

>The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on
>my livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new
>annoyances.
>
>The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on
>one of the lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have
>somehow sheared off. This comes as something of a shock to
>me, since my brother has been riding it for a week now
>without incident.
>
>What do I do now?
>

Someone just gave me an old (but low mileage) Simplex rear.
At least I think it is one of those, I'll check at work
tomorrow. If you want it, no charge.

ddandan at pacbell dot net

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:36:47 -0400, Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter
> how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and
> French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

Well, for starters, wd40 is great for loosening stuck stuff
and flushing the gunk out, just put some proper lube in it.
I restored an old raleigh with a really gritty "sounding"
Sturmey freewheel and it really liked several drops of heavy
gear oil. Shut it right up.

:D

Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> The project bike--the Follis, whose progress I document on
> my livejournal (link below)--continues to produce new
> annoyances.
>
> The Simplex rear derailleur has failed. Half the teeth on
> one of the lower wheel (pulley?) on the derailleur have
> somehow sheared off. This comes as something of a shock to
> me, since my brother has been riding it for a week now
> without incident.

Comes as a shock to me, too. The teeth on the jockey pulleys
have essentially zero stress on them. I can't imagine what
could break them, except an impact. But no matter...

>
> What do I do now?

Jockey pulleys can often be traded between derailleurs of
different brands. If you can find _any_ junk derailleur, you
may be able to cannibalize it to replace that pulley.

OTOH, plastic Simplex derailleurs aren't worth much. An old
Shimano or SunTour would probably shift easier anyway. Have
you checked the thrift shops for a beater you can use for
parts? Or an old bike shop?

> Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no matter
> how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old and
> French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do I do?

As others have said, the French threads are a problem.
You'll have a hard time finding a repleacment.

Easiest strategy is to ignore it. A freewheel has to be
pretty bad before it causes problems. It doesn't spin unless
you're coasting, and as long as it doesn't lock up, it's not
much to worry about.

Dissassembly isn't too hard if you're into finicky mechanic
work - but it sounds like you're not! If you decide to try
it, be prepared to catch the 100-or-so tiny ball bearings
that will fall out. (A magnet can be useful.) Get a pair of
tweezers to deal with the hair-thin springs that work the
pawls. And use clean grease to hold the balls in place while
you're fiddling with reassembly. (No need to take it off the
hub, BTW.)

Perhaps you could postpone the freewheel work until winter,
then maybe find a way to give it a long soak in a pan of
kerosene. I haven't done this, you understand - I'm just
thinking out loud, in a virtual way.

> I really really *really* want to avoid having to buy a new
> one.....*sigh*

And you can! This is just a test the Universe has arranged
for you. A test of your creativity, and your community
connectedness. There are also some bike mechanic lessons
thrown in for free. ;-)

--
--------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove
rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:12:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@mousepotato.com> wrote:

>Comes as a shock to me, too. The teeth on the jockey
>pulleys have essentially zero stress on them. I can't
>imagine what could break them, except an impact. But no
>matter...

He likes the bike so much he takes it for neighborhood rides
without telling me....so when I discovered this I was like
"where in the world have you been riding to do THIS??"

I won't let him cyclocross the bike until he can wrench his
own machines!

Upon further examination, the teeth seemed pretty worn-
down. But half of the pulley just snapping off? it was
weird. Could it be that this was what was causing the
derailment problem?
>
>>
>> What do I do now?
>
>Jockey pulleys can often be traded between derailleurs of
>different brands. If you can find _any_ junk derailleur,
>you may be able to cannibalize it to replace that pulley.
>
>OTOH, plastic Simplex derailleurs aren't worth much. An old
>Shimano or SunTour would probably shift easier anyway. Have
>you checked the thrift shops for a beater you can use for
>parts? Or an old bike shop?

There's my old Raleigh that's been waiting for a wheel for
ages. It has a Shimano rear derailleur that I can use, I
guess. The Follis uses a Simplex-type adaptor claw, which I
gather from googling isn't going to take a regular rear
derailleur. But I'm guessing that if I can find an adaptor
claw that's properly threaded etc, this should be a (fairly)
trivial change, right?

(The Raleigh is slowly disappearing, part by part, either by
destruction--the rear wheel--or by cannibalism, as might be
the case here))

>
>> Also, the freewheel sounds really really gritty, no
>> matter how much I I try to flush it with WD-40. It's old
>> and French: a Cyclo 72 5-speed freewheel. What do I do?
>
>As others have said, the French threads are a problem.
>You'll have a hard time finding a repleacment.
>
>Easiest strategy is to ignore it. A freewheel has to be
>pretty bad before it causes problems. It doesn't spin
>unless you're coasting, and as long as it doesn't lock up,
>it's not much to worry about.

See, but here's the funny thing about the freewheel: when I
crank the bike going forwards, it's all right. When I stop
and let go of the pedals, it spins--and the pedals keep
spinning forwards! Next weird thing: if I stop the wheel
completely, and begin to pedal backwards, the wheel turns
backwards along with the pedal. Something tells me that's
not supposed to happen.

It worked fine for a while after the WD-40 flush, though.

>
>Dissassembly isn't too hard if you're into finicky mechanic
>work - but it sounds like you're not!

I'm not a natural wrench. I do it out of necessity, mostly.
I do enjoy the end of wrenching, which is a running bicycle.
My little brother will tell you that the *process* of
wrenching, for me, boils down to a bit of fumbling and quite
a lot of swearing and berating components for being
generally uncooperative.

> If you decide to try it, be prepared to catch the 100-or-
> so tiny ball bearings that will fall out. (A magnet can be
> useful.) Get a pair of tweezers to deal with the hair-thin
> springs that work the pawls. And use clean grease to hold
> the balls in place while you're fiddling with reassembly.
> (No need to take it off the hub, BTW.)

This doesn't sound very appealing.
>
>Perhaps you could postpone the freewheel work until winter,
>then maybe find a way to give it a long soak in a pan of
>kerosene. I haven't done this, you understand - I'm just
>thinking out loud, in a virtual way.

I think I'm going to try dripping some more and heavier oil
down there, and hoping that gritty sandy noise will go away.

>
>> I really really *really* want to avoid having to buy a
>> new one.....*sigh*
>
>And you can! This is just a test the Universe has arranged
>for you. A test of your creativity, and your community
>connectedness. There are also some bike mechanic lessons
>thrown in for free. ;-)

It's teaching me an awful lot, that's for sure. The main
lesson seems to be this: there is no such thing as an "easy"
bike project when it comes to bicycles this old. There's
always something I hadn't counted on to surprise me.

-Luigi www.livejournal.com/users/ouij photos, rants, raves

Luigi de Guzman <luigi12081@cox.net> wrote:

> See, but here's the funny thing about the freewheel: when
> I crank the bike going forwards, it's all right. When I
> stop and let go of the pedals, it spins--and the pedals
> keep spinning forwards! Next weird thing: if I stop the
> wheel completely, and begin to pedal backwards, the wheel
> turns backwards along with the pedal. Something tells me
> that's not supposed to happen.

> It worked fine for a while after the WD-40 flush, though.

It's just sticky, so it isn't free-wheeling very well. WD-40
is not a persistent lubricant. Flush it again, then drip
some oil (motor oil or even 3-in-1 will do) in between the
fixed part and rotating part, and rotate the gears by hand
to get the oil mixed in there. Keep in mind that although
the pedals spin forwards when you crank it by hand, in real
life there's a person's weight on them, so they won't go
forward. You want it to freewheel enough that it doesn't
throw chain though.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber
<ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
<MPG.1b4a259a2057eb2a989856@news.ids.net>:

>Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it.

Why bother? If you really want to clean it, soak it in
paraffin, leave it to dry thoroughly and run in some light
oil - but actually just runing in the light oil is normally
enough. It's not like it does much work, as long as the
pawls engage, job done.

These things can be a bugger to get apart, and an even worse
bugger to get back together. Trust me, Sturmey Archer three-
speed hubs are easier :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk (http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/)

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

David L. Johnson wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55:26 -0400, David Kerber wrote:
>
>
>>Take it apart, clean it out and re-lube it. Be careful not
>>to lose the very small bearings, and look closely at how
>>the pawl springs go in when you first take it apart. It's
>>a bit tedious but not difficult. The hardest part is
>>getting the lock ring off.
>
>
> I really, really, disagree with this. I did this once, and
> once is enough. The easiest part is getting the lock ring
> off! The hardest part is getting it back together with
> anything like most of the bearings in the proper place,
> and with any of the pawl springs actually working.

I've heard this before, but never understood it. I've
disassembled many freewheels, and never found it very hard.
Sure, there are about 104 moving parts - but 100 of those
are the ball bearings!

To get the bearings back into place, you stick them to the
races with light grease. The hardest thing about the process
(these days, anyway) is to not misplace my close-up glasses.
(I want my old eyes back.)

> No freewheel is worth this, much less some ancient
> French one.

Well, I've got SunTour New Winners on at least four bikes,
and a pretty complete sprocket board, so I keep taking care
of the freewheels. While most freewheels need only flushing
and oiling, I've had some that required disassembly to
completely clean.

In Luigi's situation, where a French-threaded freewheel
would be almost impossible to find, cleaning the freewheel
saves the entire rear wheel. To me, that would definitely
be worth it.

--
--------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove
rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> If you really want to clean it, soak it in paraffin...

West of the Atlantic, that would be kerosene.

--
--------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove
rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu]