Put marker in new drugs...

Alex Rodriguez

In article
<9e940e20.0406290326.224c952a@posting.google.com>,
wrbmaine@msn.com says...
>
>
>Drug manufacturers agree to place benign marker in their
>new drugs (too late for those meds already approved) --
>would make testing so easy.

For new drugs, this will probably happen. For existing drugs
it probably won't happen. If the drug companies were to do
that they would have to go through the whole FDA process
again and that would cost an arm and a leg.
--------------
Alex

Steven

wrbmaine@msn.com (Bill Black) wrote in message news:<9e940e20.0406290326.224c952a@posting.google.com>...
> Drug manufacturers agree to place benign marker in their
> new drugs (too late for those meds already approved) --
> would make testing so easy. Best, Bill Black

Even if you could convince the world that adding markers
wouldn't complicate the various regulatory approval
processes and delay potentially life saving drugs from
reaching market, convince numerous governments to enact
legisilation harmful to one of the worlds largest lobbies,
manage to find the funds to pay for this, convince me and
any sane human that this isn't a gigantic boondoggle taking
valuable funds from programs that are actually important in
the grand scheme of things. You still haven't done a damn
thing to stop doping. You have simply created a demand and
market for marker stripping and/or designer drugs...What
colossal waste of time.

Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for the
poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is doing
anything it is blood doping. take some red out, and put it
back in until you hit 50% They are your red blood cells!!!

The only way I think you could detect this is through ver
precise DNA examination. I.E. the old red blood cells might
be slightly less frayed...Maybe a base pair...anyone know
the timeline for this?

Richard Adams

Nobodyman

On 29 Jun 2004 13:34:14 -0700, crewiscool42@yahoo.com (Steven) wrote:

>
>Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for the
>poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is doing
>anything it is blood doping. take some red out, and put it
>back in until you hit 50% They are your red blood cells!!!

Huh? EPO does the same thing that blood doping does - it
elevates your Crit by producing new red blood cells. It has
a huge advantage over old fashioned doping as it doesn't
require you to go through the performance sapping process of
having your old cells pulled out and then taking a few weeks
to replaced them. It does the same thing, without lowering
your RBC count, in just a few days.

Hold My Beer An

"Steven" <crewiscool42@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for the
> poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is doing
> anything it is blood doping. take some red out, and put it
> back in until you hit 50% They are your red blood cells!!!
>

Uh, steve. Just whose RBCs do you think they are when you do
EPO? Amgen's?

Hold My Beer An

"Ewoud Dronkert" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:40e1efee$0$36861$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> On Tuesday 29 June 2004 22:34%, Steven wrote:
> > Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for
> > the poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is
> > doing anything it is blood doping. take some red out,
> > and put it back in until you hit 50% They are your red
> > blood cells!!!
>
> With EPO, they're your red blood cells too. EPO is
> probably more effective in the sense that a) the extra
> haemaglobin is fresh and new, not old, and b) it's less of
> a strain on the body, that otherwise must compensate for
> the loss of a liter of blood.

Not to mention that you don't have the risk of your bag of
blood becoming contaminated and giving you sepsis.

K. Gringioni

Stewart Fleming

Steven wrote:

> Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for the
> poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is doing
> anything it is blood doping. take some red out, and put it
> back in until you hit 50% They are your red blood cells!!!

I'd disagree. If anything, the indicators are that Lance is
doing this year (at least) clean. (Although, since we're in
speculation mode, there are several bits of circumstance
that could point to a testosterone-based preparation
programme, also for Ullrich, if you decided to look at the
world in a particular way) To be specifically candyass about
it, there WILL be a drug scandal at the Tour, but it will
not touch Lance.

Bill Black

kgringioni@hotmail.com (K. Gringioni) wrote in message news:<96ea3d44.0406291841.4eeb9521@posting.google.com>...
> wrbmaine@msn.com (Bill Black) wrote in message
> news:<9e940e20.0406290326.224c952a@posting.google.com>...
> > Drug manufacturers agree to place benign marker in their
> > new drugs (too late for those meds already approved) --
> > would make testing so easy.
>
>
>
> Goddamm.
>
> You are a moron.
>
> This will never happen because:
>
> 1) drug companies get free publicity from the illicit use
> of their drugs. free pub = more $$$.
> 2) the markers will cost the drug companies $$$ to put in.
> 3) it won't work anyways. A cheater can always get some
> greedy lab rat to manufacture the drug w/out the marker
> (see BALCO).
>
> No need to thank me for helping you pull your head out of
> your ass. I am a Good Samaritan.
>
> take care and have a nice day,
>
>
>
> K. Gringioni

Short memory guy -- Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, XC
skiers busted due to markers in the meds they chose, the
manufacturer coordinated this with sports' agencies in
development/approval of the drugs. Hmmm..... Smoochies to
you, Bill Black

Steven

Ewoud Dronkert <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<40e1efee$0$36861$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...
> On Tuesday 29 June 2004 22:34%, Steven wrote:
> > Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for
> > the poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is
> > doing anything it is blood doping. take some red out,
> > and put it back in until you hit 50% They are your red
> > blood cells!!!
>
> With EPO, they're your red blood cells too. EPO is
> probably more effective in the sense that a) the extra
> haemaglobin is fresh and new, not old, and b) it's less of
> a strain on the body, that otherwise must compensate for
> the loss of a liter of blood.

Are people really this stupid? With blood doping there isn't
an exogenous compound floating around in your blood stream
that can be tested for!!!!!

The reason EPO is for the poor is because it is far cheaper
to do properly than blood doping but it comes with the risk
of failing a test. With blood doping, I bet you could fix it
so your doping regime would be confidental under HIPAA,
therefore criminal preceedings would have to be commenced to
get the info released. even then the Doc maybe able to pleed
the 5th. (Any lawyers out there able to check the validity
of this?) Essentially a 99% risk free regime and you can
answer "I have never taken performance enhancing drugs" and
not be lying.

Also are you guys suggesting that losing some RBC in october
or novemember is really going to cost anyone fitness in
July. Also it isn't whole blodd you're losing just RBC. the
stuff can be centrifuged on the spot and put back in.

Bob Schwartz

Bill Black <wrbmaine@msn.com> wrote:
> Short memory guy -- Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, XC
> skiers busted due to markers in the meds they chose, the
> manufacturer coordinated this with sports' agencies in
> development/approval of the drugs.

Is that true?

The original page is gone but I was able to pull this out of
the Yahoo search cache for ultramarathonworld.com. The
article was an interview with Frank Shorter's regarding his
tenure with the USADA:

"At Salt Lake City, Shorter saw enough signs of change to
believe the tide is beginning to shift back in favor of
clean athletes.

For the first time, all endurance athletes were tested for
EPO. The WADA put out disinformation that it wouldn't have
the test for darbepoetin developed in time for the games,
when in fact the test was ready. As a result, the Russian
women's cross country ski team withdraw from the games after
two of its medal winners tested positive for darbepoetin.
Spanish skier Johann Muehlegg, winner of three gold medals,
also tested positive and was disqualified and disgraced."

No marker.

Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com

Gym Gravity

Steven wrote:

> Also are you guys suggesting that losing some RBC in
> october or novemember is really going to cost anyone
> fitness in July. Also it isn't whole blodd you're losing
> just RBC. the stuff can be centrifuged on the spot and put
> back in.

I think it is centrifuged first, the packed cells are
stored, and resuspended later. Stored at 4C they have a
shelf life of 42 days, up to 10 years frozen at less than
-65C, but must be used within 24 hours of thawing. Here is a
method for refrigerated storage with a longer half life:

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti-
_id=672690

Description/Abstract

Prolonged cold storage of red blood cells by oxygen removal
and additive usage. A cost-effective, 4 C storage procedure
that preserves red cell quality and prolongs post-
transfusion in vivo survival is described. The improved in
vivo survival and the preservation of adenosine triphosphate
levels, along with reduction in hemolysis and membrane
vesicle production of red blood cells stored at 4 C for
prolonged periods of time, is achieved by reducing the
oxygen level therein at the time of storage; in particular,
by flushing the cells with an inert gas, and storing them in
an aqueous solution which includes adenine, dextrose,
mannitol, citrate ion, and dihydrogen phosphate ion, but no
sodium chloride, in an oxygen-permeable container which is
located in an oxygen-free environment containing oxygen-
scavenging materials. 8 figs.

Who knows, maybe Actovegin has a role in all this?

Gym Gravity

Stewart Fleming wrote:

> I'd disagree. If anything, the indicators are that Lance
> is doing this year (at least) clean. (Although, since
> we're in speculation mode, there are several bits of
> circumstance that could point to a testosterone-based
> preparation programme, also for Ullrich, if you decided to
> look at the world in a particular way) To be specifically
> candyass about it, there WILL be a drug scandal at the
> Tour, but it will not touch Lance.

We are in agreement. Wouldn't it be self satisfying for a
rider to win the tour clean, even if said rider was the only
one that knew it? Even if all the other wins were not clean?

I'm curious to know, what bits of circumstance?

K. Gringioni

wrbmaine@msn.com (Bill Black) wrote in message
> > Goddamm.
> >
> > You are a moron.
> >
> > This will never happen because:
> >
> > 1) drug companies get free publicity from the illicit
> > use of their drugs. free pub = more $$$.
> > 2) the markers will cost the drug companies $$$ to put
> > in.
> > 3) it won't work anyways. A cheater can always get some
> > greedy lab rat to manufacture the drug w/out the
> > marker (see BALCO).
> >
> > No need to thank me for helping you pull your head out
> > of your ass. I am a Good Samaritan.
> >
> > take care and have a nice day,
> >
> >
> >
> > K. Gringioni
>
> Short memory guy -- Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, XC
> skiers busted due to markers in the meds they chose, the
> manufacturer coordinated this with sports' agencies in
> development/approval of the drugs.

Goddamm.

You really do have your head up your ass.

Putting markers in drugs requires going through the FDA
approval process again. Drug companies will not spend
millions of $$$ to do that.

They may have cooperated in the Salt Lake case, but it was
w/ regards to developing a test, not putting in markers.

K. Gringioni

wrbmaine@msn.com (Bill Black) wrote in message
>
> Short memory guy -- Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, XC
> skiers busted due to markers in the meds they chose, the
> manufacturer coordinated this with sports' agencies in
> development/approval of the drugs. Hmmm.....

Moron.

Read this: no markers. Just tests. Like we already have.

http://www.letsrun.com/2003/darbepoetin.php

Brief Note on the Positive Drug Tests for Darbepoetin at
the 2002 Winter Olympics Sept 11, 2003 LetsRun.com

At the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics, a test for the blood
boosting substance darbepoetin (often referred to by its
trade name "Aranesp") was implemented for the first time at
a competition by Dr. Don Catlin and his workers at the Salt
Lake City drug testing lab. Darbepoetin is a drug very
similar to EPO that was developed by Amgen to have longer
lasting effects than EPO. At the time of the Salt Lake
Olympics, athletes did not know there was a test to detect
darbepoetin doping.

However, due to the very similar makeup of artificial EPO
and darbepoetin, Dr. Catlin and his lab had quitely come up
with a method of using the urine EPO test to detect
darbepoetin doping. Two medallists at the Olympics in cross
country skiing, Johan Muehlegg of Spain and Larissa Lazutina
of Russia, tested positive for darbepoetin and were to be
stripped of their medals as a result. They appealed the
decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, arguing
among other things that using the urine EPO test to detect
darbepoetin was experimental and not scientifically valid.

Kaiser

I wrote a few emails back and forth to Sal Ruibal, a
journalist with USA Today, who seems to have unique access
to Lance (especially this time of year). I told him that he
was always asking the wrong questions. I said: "Of course
Lance is saying he has never tested positive and that he
does not take banned substances...so ask him what he DOES
do. Ask him what he DOES inject. Ask him if he takes
(currently) LEGAL pharma products unrelated to cancer, and
if so, WHAT.

Of course, Ruibal is an absolute chicken-****. He told me
that Lance has been up and down that road and that he
doesn't want to waste Lance's time with such a line of
questioning. He knows that the moment he asks a question
like that, his access will be shut down.

In this climate of rampant drug use by pros, I do not think
it is unfair to ask the current 5 time TDF champ to shed
some brighter light on how a champ "does it clean" in the
middle of this environment.

>Essentially a 99% risk free regime and you can answer
>"I have never taken performance enhancing drugs" and
>not be lying.

Bill Black

Check out this link, especially the internal links to
testimony by Dr. Elliot, who developed the drug for Amgen
and testified against the athletes.
http://www.letsrun.com/2003/darbepoetin.php Best, Bill Black

Bob Schwartz <cvcc@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:<10e5jbuh2n70s9f@corp.supernews.com>...
> Bill Black <wrbmaine@msn.com> wrote:
> > Short memory guy -- Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, XC
> > skiers busted due to markers in the meds they chose, the
> > manufacturer coordinated this with sports' agencies in
> > development/approval of the drugs.
>
> Is that true?
>
> The original page is gone but I was able to pull this out
> of the Yahoo search cache for ultramarathonworld.com. The
> article was an interview with Frank Shorter's regarding
> his tenure with the USADA:
>
> "At Salt Lake City, Shorter saw enough signs of change to
> believe the tide is beginning to shift back in favor of
> clean athletes.
>
> For the first time, all endurance athletes were tested for
> EPO. The WADA put out disinformation that it wouldn't have
> the test for darbepoetin developed in time for the games,
> when in fact the test was ready. As a result, the Russian
> women's cross country ski team withdraw from the games
> after two of its medal winners tested positive for
> darbepoetin. Spanish skier Johann Muehlegg, winner of
> three gold medals, also tested positive and was
> disqualified and disgraced."
>
> No marker.
>
> Bob Schwartz cvcc@execpc.com

Kyle Legate

Steven wrote:
>
> Also as far as endurance sports go, I think EPO is for the
> poor and stupid. I am convinced that if lance is doing
> anything it is blood doping. take some red out, and put it
> back in until you hit 50% They are your red blood cells!!!
>
> The only way I think you could detect this is through ver
> precise DNA examination. I.E. the old red blood cells
> might be slightly less frayed...Maybe a base pair...anyone
> know the timeline for this?
>
Timeline for what? Red blood cells have no DNA. They lose it
in the bone marrow.