Peter Moran
"Tourists in Altland".
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/tourists.html
Peter Moran
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/tourists.html
Peter Moran
To see ourselves --------
View Full Version : To see ourselves --------
Dave Wickware
Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first consider
where they are coming from. Some show anger by the way they
express themselves, some have an alliance with a radical
group, there should be some balance of thoughts, some have
no credentials to be speaking about the subject they are
speaking about.
I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who was a
nurse and has had no experience with holistic healing. She
writes with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
holistic medicine.
The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
information.
"Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:40e73384$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> "Tourists in Altland".
>
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/tourists.html
>
>
>
> Peter Moran
where they are coming from. Some show anger by the way they
express themselves, some have an alliance with a radical
group, there should be some balance of thoughts, some have
no credentials to be speaking about the subject they are
speaking about.
I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who was a
nurse and has had no experience with holistic healing. She
writes with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
holistic medicine.
The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
information.
"Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:40e73384$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> "Tourists in Altland".
>
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/tourists.html
>
>
>
> Peter Moran
Jan
>Subject: To see ourselves -------- From: "Peter Moran"
>moringa@gil.com.au Date: 7/3/2004 2:33 PM Pacific Standard
>Time Message-id: <40e73384$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
>03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
>
>"Tourists in Altland".
>
>
>
>http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/tourists.html
The Quackfiles ah.
Strange I don't see Dr Wilson's name there.
Wonder why??
OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
This is a skeptical and biased website! (*)
Heavy on the BIASED.
That's why Peter Moran posts it.
Go figure.
Jan
>moringa@gil.com.au Date: 7/3/2004 2:33 PM Pacific Standard
>Time Message-id: <40e73384$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
>03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
>
>"Tourists in Altland".
>
>
>
>http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/tourists.html
The Quackfiles ah.
Strange I don't see Dr Wilson's name there.
Wonder why??
OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
This is a skeptical and biased website! (*)
Heavy on the BIASED.
That's why Peter Moran posts it.
Go figure.
Jan
David Wright
In article <0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Dave Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first consider
>where they are coming from.
Reasonable. You are coming from "how can I make a buck off
the rubes by selling them worthless and/or overpriced
products?"
>Some show anger by the way they express themselves, some
>have an alliance with a radical group, there should be some
>balance of thoughts, some have no credentials to be
>speaking about the subject they are speaking about.
Well, that last certainly describes you. Aren't you the guy
who had arteries and veins backwards?
>I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who was
>a nurse and has had no experience with holistic healing.
>She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness)
No, a common sign of irritation with you, Spammin' Dave.
>for a radical organization that seems to desire to blindly
>stamp out holistic medicine.
>
>The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
>information.
And your stuff reads like a sales pitch written by an
ignoramus, which is far worse.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Dave Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first consider
>where they are coming from.
Reasonable. You are coming from "how can I make a buck off
the rubes by selling them worthless and/or overpriced
products?"
>Some show anger by the way they express themselves, some
>have an alliance with a radical group, there should be some
>balance of thoughts, some have no credentials to be
>speaking about the subject they are speaking about.
Well, that last certainly describes you. Aren't you the guy
who had arteries and veins backwards?
>I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who was
>a nurse and has had no experience with holistic healing.
>She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness)
No, a common sign of irritation with you, Spammin' Dave.
>for a radical organization that seems to desire to blindly
>stamp out holistic medicine.
>
>The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
>information.
And your stuff reads like a sales pitch written by an
ignoramus, which is far worse.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Peter Moran
"Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> consider where they are coming from. Some show anger by
> the way they express themselves, some have an alliance
> with a radical group, there should be some balance of
> thoughts, some have no credentials to be speaking about
the
> subject they are speaking about.
>
> I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who was
> a nurse and has had no experience with holistic healing.
> She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a
> radical organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp
> out holistic medicine.
I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence. But
if you look at all the evidence the things she specifically
targets are mostly transparent nonsense and are regarded as
dubious even by a lot of more sensible alt supporters.
Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
alt.med truly practice that way? It mostly gives the
patient a glib pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in
fashion at the time. Nowadays it's usually "the toxins".
The patient is sent on their way with a variety of measures
to "treat" that.
Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness, half
of alt.med wants to deny that psychosomatic factors can be
contributory, and seeks an external physical cause for every
complaint, such as amalgams or parasites. Another section of
alt.med thinks all illness, even cancer,. is psychosomatic
and the patient's fault if they cannot deal with it. Not
very holistic either.
Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an even
less focussed alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing
offense to those with real spiritual connections with
fanciful pseudoscientific gabblings.
You know all this is true. You only have to open your eyes.
Peter Moran
news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> consider where they are coming from. Some show anger by
> the way they express themselves, some have an alliance
> with a radical group, there should be some balance of
> thoughts, some have no credentials to be speaking about
the
> subject they are speaking about.
>
> I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who was
> a nurse and has had no experience with holistic healing.
> She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a
> radical organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp
> out holistic medicine.
I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence. But
if you look at all the evidence the things she specifically
targets are mostly transparent nonsense and are regarded as
dubious even by a lot of more sensible alt supporters.
Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
alt.med truly practice that way? It mostly gives the
patient a glib pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in
fashion at the time. Nowadays it's usually "the toxins".
The patient is sent on their way with a variety of measures
to "treat" that.
Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness, half
of alt.med wants to deny that psychosomatic factors can be
contributory, and seeks an external physical cause for every
complaint, such as amalgams or parasites. Another section of
alt.med thinks all illness, even cancer,. is psychosomatic
and the patient's fault if they cannot deal with it. Not
very holistic either.
Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an even
less focussed alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing
offense to those with real spiritual connections with
fanciful pseudoscientific gabblings.
You know all this is true. You only have to open your eyes.
Peter Moran
Peter Bowditch
jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
>OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
Paul Lee is a drug-free, alternative medicine practitioner.
He has a child with a problem that conventional medicine HAS
NO ANSWER FOR. (My niece has the same problem.)
--
Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles The Green Light
http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight Quintessence of the Loon
http://www.ratbags.com/loon To email me use my first name
only at ratbags.com
>OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
Paul Lee is a drug-free, alternative medicine practitioner.
He has a child with a problem that conventional medicine HAS
NO ANSWER FOR. (My niece has the same problem.)
--
Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles The Green Light
http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight Quintessence of the Loon
http://www.ratbags.com/loon To email me use my first name
only at ratbags.com
Dave Wickware
In the world of intuitive healing anger is one of the
defining signs of someone who is unhealthy. I must ask you
what illness you are aware of having?
"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:bVHFc.908$X84.430@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com>, Dave
> Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> >consider where they
are
> >coming from.
>
> Reasonable. You are coming from "how can I make a buck off
> the rubes by selling them worthless and/or overpriced
> products?"
>
> >Some show anger by the way they express themselves, some
> >have an alliance with a radical group, there should be
> >some balance of thoughts, some have no credentials to be
> >speaking about the subject they are speaking about.
>
> Well, that last certainly describes you. Aren't you the
> guy who had arteries and veins backwards?
>
> >I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> >was a nurse and has had no experience with holistic
> >healing. She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness)
>
> No, a common sign of irritation with you, Spammin' Dave.
>
> >for a radical organization that seems to desire to
> >blindly stamp out holistic medicine.
> >
> >The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
> >information.
>
> And your stuff reads like a sales pitch written by an
> ignoramus, which is far worse.
>
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
> opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
> have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
> were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
defining signs of someone who is unhealthy. I must ask you
what illness you are aware of having?
"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:bVHFc.908$X84.430@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com>, Dave
> Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> >consider where they
are
> >coming from.
>
> Reasonable. You are coming from "how can I make a buck off
> the rubes by selling them worthless and/or overpriced
> products?"
>
> >Some show anger by the way they express themselves, some
> >have an alliance with a radical group, there should be
> >some balance of thoughts, some have no credentials to be
> >speaking about the subject they are speaking about.
>
> Well, that last certainly describes you. Aren't you the
> guy who had arteries and veins backwards?
>
> >I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> >was a nurse and has had no experience with holistic
> >healing. She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness)
>
> No, a common sign of irritation with you, Spammin' Dave.
>
> >for a radical organization that seems to desire to
> >blindly stamp out holistic medicine.
> >
> >The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
> >information.
>
> And your stuff reads like a sales pitch written by an
> ignoramus, which is far worse.
>
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
> opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
> have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
> were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Dave Wickware
"Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
>
> "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > consider where they
are
> > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > themselves, some have an alliance with a radical group,
> > there should be some balance of thoughts, some have no
> > credentials to be speaking about
> the
> > subject they are speaking about.
> >
> > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> > was a nurse and
has
> > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes with
> > anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
> > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
> > holistic medicine.
>
> I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence.
> But if you look
at
> all the evidence the things she specifically targets
> are mostly
transparent
> nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of more
> sensible alt supporters.
>
> Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> alt.med truly
practice
> that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the time.
> Nowadays it's usually "the toxins". The patient is sent on
> their way with a variety of measures to "treat" that.
>
> Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness, half
> of alt.med
wants
> to deny that psychosomatic factors can be contributory,
> and seeks an external physical cause for every complaint,
> such as amalgams or
parasites.
> Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if they
> cannot deal with it. Not very holistic either.
>
> Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> even less focussed alt.med buzz-word, as often as not
> causing offense to those with real spiritual connections
> with fanciful pseudoscientific gabblings.
Now you display who you are. All living things are spiritual
beings. Your confusion seems to cause you to believe that
there are different kinds of spirituality. You seem to imply
that there is one kind for people who understand wholistic
healing, and another kind that is your kind. In truth there
is spirituality or a vacant abyss. Spirituality is merely
the understanding of the foregoing and healers are connected
with their spiritually. Those who deny the existence of some
kind of spirit who created us is, described as a lost soul.
I am always curious to know who you think designed the human
body? Who designed the elaborate interaction throughout the
natural world. I had a doctor in the not too distant past
explain to me that when nature fails us medical science is
there to pick us up. This is what I refer to as severe
arrogance disillusionment. It describes the shortcomings of
some physicians.
You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
some understanding of healing, you would discover that
removing body parts is not healing, it is mutilation. The
reason I say that is simply because a diseased organ can be
restored by treating the underlying cause of the disease.
Once the cause of the problem is addressed the person can
be healed by their own body. That is what healing is and it
is rarely, if ever experienced by traditional physicians. I
work with small but growing number of practising physicians
who have opened their minds and are beginning to heal
people. A fully trained holistic M.D. is the way our
society can begin to win.
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
>
> "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > consider where they
are
> > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > themselves, some have an alliance with a radical group,
> > there should be some balance of thoughts, some have no
> > credentials to be speaking about
> the
> > subject they are speaking about.
> >
> > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> > was a nurse and
has
> > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes with
> > anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
> > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
> > holistic medicine.
>
> I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence.
> But if you look
at
> all the evidence the things she specifically targets
> are mostly
transparent
> nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of more
> sensible alt supporters.
>
> Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> alt.med truly
practice
> that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the time.
> Nowadays it's usually "the toxins". The patient is sent on
> their way with a variety of measures to "treat" that.
>
> Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness, half
> of alt.med
wants
> to deny that psychosomatic factors can be contributory,
> and seeks an external physical cause for every complaint,
> such as amalgams or
parasites.
> Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if they
> cannot deal with it. Not very holistic either.
>
> Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> even less focussed alt.med buzz-word, as often as not
> causing offense to those with real spiritual connections
> with fanciful pseudoscientific gabblings.
Now you display who you are. All living things are spiritual
beings. Your confusion seems to cause you to believe that
there are different kinds of spirituality. You seem to imply
that there is one kind for people who understand wholistic
healing, and another kind that is your kind. In truth there
is spirituality or a vacant abyss. Spirituality is merely
the understanding of the foregoing and healers are connected
with their spiritually. Those who deny the existence of some
kind of spirit who created us is, described as a lost soul.
I am always curious to know who you think designed the human
body? Who designed the elaborate interaction throughout the
natural world. I had a doctor in the not too distant past
explain to me that when nature fails us medical science is
there to pick us up. This is what I refer to as severe
arrogance disillusionment. It describes the shortcomings of
some physicians.
You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
some understanding of healing, you would discover that
removing body parts is not healing, it is mutilation. The
reason I say that is simply because a diseased organ can be
restored by treating the underlying cause of the disease.
Once the cause of the problem is addressed the person can
be healed by their own body. That is what healing is and it
is rarely, if ever experienced by traditional physicians. I
work with small but growing number of practising physicians
who have opened their minds and are beginning to heal
people. A fully trained holistic M.D. is the way our
society can begin to win.
M.A.R.K P.R.O.B
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
news:kamee0tvl0bdlmcp7031acm1du9rccscpt@4ax.com...
> jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
>
> >OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
>
> Paul Lee is a drug-free, alternative medicine
> practitioner. He has a child with a problem that
> conventional medicine HAS NO ANSWER FOR. (My niece has the
> same problem.)
Not this one:
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/about_paul_lee.html
news:kamee0tvl0bdlmcp7031acm1du9rccscpt@4ax.com...
> jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
>
> >OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
>
> Paul Lee is a drug-free, alternative medicine
> practitioner. He has a child with a problem that
> conventional medicine HAS NO ANSWER FOR. (My niece has the
> same problem.)
Not this one:
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/about_paul_lee.html
Peter Moran
"Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
>
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> >
> > "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > > consider where they
> are
> > > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > > themselves, some have an alliance with a radical
> > > group, there should be some balance of thoughts, some
> > > have no credentials to be speaking
about
> > the
> > > subject they are speaking about.
> > >
> > > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> > > was a nurse and
> has
> > > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes
> > > with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
> > > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
> > > holistic medicine.
> >
> > I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence.
> > But if you
look
> at
> > all the evidence the things she specifically targets are
> > mostly
> transparent
> > nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of
> > more sensible alt supporters.
> >
> > Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> > alt.med truly
> practice
> > that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> > pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the
> > time. Nowadays it's usually "the
toxins".
> > The patient is sent on their way with a variety of
> > measures to "treat" that.
> >
> > Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness,
> > half of alt.med
> wants
> > to deny that psychosomatic factors can be contributory,
> > and seeks an external physical cause for every
> > complaint, such as amalgams or
> parasites.
> > Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> > cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if
> > they cannot deal with it. Not
> > very holistic either.
> >
> > Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> > even less
focussed
> > alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing offense to
> > those with real spiritual connections with fanciful
> > pseudoscientific gabblings.
>
> Now you display who you are. All living things are
> spiritual beings. Your confusion seems to cause you to
> believe that there are different kinds of spirituality.
> You seem to
imply
> that there is one kind for people who understand wholistic
> healing, and another kind that is your kind. In truth
> there is spirituality or a vacant abyss. Spirituality is
> merely the understanding of the foregoing and
healers
> are connected with their spiritually. Those who deny the
> existence of some kind of spirit who created us is,
> described as a lost soul.
>
> I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> too distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
> medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It describes
> the shortcomings of some
physicians.
>
> You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
> diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
> able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
some
> understanding of healing, you would discover that removing
> body parts is not healing, it is mutilation. The reason I
> say that is simply because a diseased organ can be
> restored by treating the underlying cause of the disease.
> Once the cause of the problem is addressed the person can
> be healed by their own body. That is what healing is and
> it is rarely, if ever experienced by traditional
> physicians. I work with small but growing number of
> practising physicians who have opened their minds and are
> beginning to heal people. A fully trained holistic M.D. is
> the way our society can begin to win.
>
news:PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
>
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> >
> > "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > > consider where they
> are
> > > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > > themselves, some have an alliance with a radical
> > > group, there should be some balance of thoughts, some
> > > have no credentials to be speaking
about
> > the
> > > subject they are speaking about.
> > >
> > > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> > > was a nurse and
> has
> > > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes
> > > with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
> > > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
> > > holistic medicine.
> >
> > I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence.
> > But if you
look
> at
> > all the evidence the things she specifically targets are
> > mostly
> transparent
> > nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of
> > more sensible alt supporters.
> >
> > Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> > alt.med truly
> practice
> > that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> > pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the
> > time. Nowadays it's usually "the
toxins".
> > The patient is sent on their way with a variety of
> > measures to "treat" that.
> >
> > Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness,
> > half of alt.med
> wants
> > to deny that psychosomatic factors can be contributory,
> > and seeks an external physical cause for every
> > complaint, such as amalgams or
> parasites.
> > Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> > cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if
> > they cannot deal with it. Not
> > very holistic either.
> >
> > Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> > even less
focussed
> > alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing offense to
> > those with real spiritual connections with fanciful
> > pseudoscientific gabblings.
>
> Now you display who you are. All living things are
> spiritual beings. Your confusion seems to cause you to
> believe that there are different kinds of spirituality.
> You seem to
imply
> that there is one kind for people who understand wholistic
> healing, and another kind that is your kind. In truth
> there is spirituality or a vacant abyss. Spirituality is
> merely the understanding of the foregoing and
healers
> are connected with their spiritually. Those who deny the
> existence of some kind of spirit who created us is,
> described as a lost soul.
>
> I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> too distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
> medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It describes
> the shortcomings of some
physicians.
>
> You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
> diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
> able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
some
> understanding of healing, you would discover that removing
> body parts is not healing, it is mutilation. The reason I
> say that is simply because a diseased organ can be
> restored by treating the underlying cause of the disease.
> Once the cause of the problem is addressed the person can
> be healed by their own body. That is what healing is and
> it is rarely, if ever experienced by traditional
> physicians. I work with small but growing number of
> practising physicians who have opened their minds and are
> beginning to heal people. A fully trained holistic M.D. is
> the way our society can begin to win.
>
Peter Moran
"Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
>
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> >
> > "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > > consider where they
> are
> > > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > > themselves, some have an alliance with a radical
> > > group, there should be some balance of thoughts, some
> > > have no credentials to be speaking
about
> > the
> > > subject they are speaking about.
> > >
> > > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> > > was a nurse and
> has
> > > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes
> > > with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
> > > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
> > > holistic medicine.
> >
> > I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence.
> > But if you
look
> at
> > all the evidence the things she specifically targets are
> > mostly
> transparent
> > nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of
> > more sensible alt supporters.
> >
> > Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> > alt.med truly
> practice
> > that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> > pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the
> > time. Nowadays it's usually "the
toxins".
> > The patient is sent on their way with a variety of
> > measures to "treat" that.
> >
> > Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness,
> > half of alt.med
> wants
> > to deny that psychosomatic factors can be contributory,
> > and seeks an external physical cause for every
> > complaint, such as amalgams or
> parasites.
> > Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> > cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if
> > they cannot deal with it. Not
> > very holistic either.
> >
> > Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> > even less
focussed
> > alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing offense to
> > those with real spiritual connections with fanciful
> > pseudoscientific gabblings.
>
> Now you display who you are. All living things are
> spiritual beings. Your confusion seems to cause you to
> believe that there are different kinds of spirituality.
> You seem to
imply
> that there is one kind for people who understand wholistic
> healing, and another kind that is your kind. In truth
> there is spirituality or a vacant abyss. Spirituality is
> merely the understanding of the foregoing and healers are
> connected with their spiritually. Those who deny the
> existence of some kind of spirit who created us is,
> described as a lost soul.
>
> I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> too distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
> medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It describes
> the shortcomings of some
physicians.
>
> You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
> diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
> able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
some
> understanding of healing, you would discover that removing
> body parts is not healing, it is mutilation. The reason I
> say that is simply because a diseased organ can be
> restored by treating the underlying cause of the disease.
> Once the cause of the problem is addressed the person can
> be healed by their own body. That is what healing is and
> it is rarely, if ever experienced by traditional
> physicians. I work with small but growing number of
> practising physicians who have opened their minds and are
> beginning to heal people. A fully trained holistic M.D. is
> the way our society can begin to win.
This is what I mean by lack of focus. This tripe is from
someone who insists that the wonders of ginseng will heal
all. If "spiritual" healers need such artificial aids, and
ones which are clearly not directed at the cause of any
illness, what is wrong with drugs and surgeons?
Even if you happen to have found a healer with pretensions
to any deep spiritual understanding ( a supremely arrogant
claim), it does not detract from my assertion that most of
the medical attentions that alt.med offers have nothing at
all to do with any interpretation of (w)holism. It is mostly
" but my stuff and you will get well". And you know it. You
even promote it.
Peter Moran
news:PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
>
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> >
> > "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > > consider where they
> are
> > > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > > themselves, some have an alliance with a radical
> > > group, there should be some balance of thoughts, some
> > > have no credentials to be speaking
about
> > the
> > > subject they are speaking about.
> > >
> > > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
> > > was a nurse and
> has
> > > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes
> > > with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a radical
> > > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp out
> > > holistic medicine.
> >
> > I liked it because of her perceptiveness and eloquence.
> > But if you
look
> at
> > all the evidence the things she specifically targets are
> > mostly
> transparent
> > nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of
> > more sensible alt supporters.
> >
> > Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> > alt.med truly
> practice
> > that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> > pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the
> > time. Nowadays it's usually "the
toxins".
> > The patient is sent on their way with a variety of
> > measures to "treat" that.
> >
> > Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness,
> > half of alt.med
> wants
> > to deny that psychosomatic factors can be contributory,
> > and seeks an external physical cause for every
> > complaint, such as amalgams or
> parasites.
> > Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> > cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if
> > they cannot deal with it. Not
> > very holistic either.
> >
> > Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> > even less
focussed
> > alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing offense to
> > those with real spiritual connections with fanciful
> > pseudoscientific gabblings.
>
> Now you display who you are. All living things are
> spiritual beings. Your confusion seems to cause you to
> believe that there are different kinds of spirituality.
> You seem to
imply
> that there is one kind for people who understand wholistic
> healing, and another kind that is your kind. In truth
> there is spirituality or a vacant abyss. Spirituality is
> merely the understanding of the foregoing and healers are
> connected with their spiritually. Those who deny the
> existence of some kind of spirit who created us is,
> described as a lost soul.
>
> I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> too distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
> medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It describes
> the shortcomings of some
physicians.
>
> You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
> diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
> able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
some
> understanding of healing, you would discover that removing
> body parts is not healing, it is mutilation. The reason I
> say that is simply because a diseased organ can be
> restored by treating the underlying cause of the disease.
> Once the cause of the problem is addressed the person can
> be healed by their own body. That is what healing is and
> it is rarely, if ever experienced by traditional
> physicians. I work with small but growing number of
> practising physicians who have opened their minds and are
> beginning to heal people. A fully trained holistic M.D. is
> the way our society can begin to win.
This is what I mean by lack of focus. This tripe is from
someone who insists that the wonders of ginseng will heal
all. If "spiritual" healers need such artificial aids, and
ones which are clearly not directed at the cause of any
illness, what is wrong with drugs and surgeons?
Even if you happen to have found a healer with pretensions
to any deep spiritual understanding ( a supremely arrogant
claim), it does not detract from my assertion that most of
the medical attentions that alt.med offers have nothing at
all to do with any interpretation of (w)holism. It is mostly
" but my stuff and you will get well". And you know it. You
even promote it.
Peter Moran
Peter Bowditch
"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-July 4, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
07-04-04@lymbercartel.com> wrote:
>
>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
>news:kamee0tvl0bdlmcp7031acm1du9rccscpt@4ax.com...
>> jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
>>
>> >OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
>>
>> Paul Lee is a drug-free, alternative medicine
>> practitioner. He has a child with a problem that
>> conventional medicine HAS NO ANSWER FOR. (My niece has
>> the same problem.)
>
>Not this one:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/about_paul_lee.html
Yes, it is that one. Paul is a physical therapist, hence my
use of the term "drug-free" (an expression beloved by
chiroquactors). He has made no secret of the fact that one
of his kids has Aspberger's Syndrome, for which conventional
medicine has no answer.
Paul and I have both been sued by Hulda Clark.
--
Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles The Green Light
http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight Quintessence of the Loon
http://www.ratbags.com/loon To email me use my first name
only at ratbags.com
07-04-04@lymbercartel.com> wrote:
>
>"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
>news:kamee0tvl0bdlmcp7031acm1du9rccscpt@4ax.com...
>> jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
>>
>> >OH YEAH, it's owned by Paul Lee!!
>>
>> Paul Lee is a drug-free, alternative medicine
>> practitioner. He has a child with a problem that
>> conventional medicine HAS NO ANSWER FOR. (My niece has
>> the same problem.)
>
>Not this one:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/about_paul_lee.html
Yes, it is that one. Paul is a physical therapist, hence my
use of the term "drug-free" (an expression beloved by
chiroquactors). He has made no secret of the fact that one
of his kids has Aspberger's Syndrome, for which conventional
medicine has no answer.
Paul and I have both been sued by Hulda Clark.
--
Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles The Green Light
http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight Quintessence of the Loon
http://www.ratbags.com/loon To email me use my first name
only at ratbags.com
David Wright
In article <IjJFc.199419$207.2385364@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Dave Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>In the world of intuitive healing anger is one of the
>defining signs of someone who is unhealthy. I must ask you
>what illness you are aware of having?
I'm not aware of having any illnesses, other than feeling
queasy every time I read the latest load of horse manure
you've posted to m.h.a.
I'm also not angry -- except with spamming vermin like you.
It's not as though you're able to defend what you write. Now
you're moving on to an attempt to attack me by claiming that
I'm "angry." Even if that were true, you're still a spamming
scumbag who posts gibberish.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
>"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:bVHFc.908$X84.430@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>> In article
>> <0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com>, Dave
>> Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
>> >consider where they
>are
>> >coming from.
>>
>> Reasonable. You are coming from "how can I make a buck
>> off the rubes by selling them worthless and/or overpriced
>> products?"
>>
>> >Some show anger by the way they express themselves, some
>> >have an alliance with a radical group, there should be
>> >some balance of thoughts, some have no credentials to be
>> >speaking about the subject they are speaking about.
>>
>> Well, that last certainly describes you. Aren't you the
>> guy who had arteries and veins backwards?
>>
>> >I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
>> >was a nurse and has had no experience with holistic
>> >healing. She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness)
>>
>> No, a common sign of irritation with you, Spammin' Dave.
>>
>> >for a radical organization that seems to desire to
>> >blindly stamp out holistic medicine.
>> >
>> >The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
>> >information.
>>
>> And your stuff reads like a sales pitch written by an
>> ignoramus, which is far worse.
Dave Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>In the world of intuitive healing anger is one of the
>defining signs of someone who is unhealthy. I must ask you
>what illness you are aware of having?
I'm not aware of having any illnesses, other than feeling
queasy every time I read the latest load of horse manure
you've posted to m.h.a.
I'm also not angry -- except with spamming vermin like you.
It's not as though you're able to defend what you write. Now
you're moving on to an attempt to attack me by claiming that
I'm "angry." Even if that were true, you're still a spamming
scumbag who posts gibberish.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
>"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:bVHFc.908$X84.430@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>> In article
>> <0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglobal.com>, Dave
>> Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
>> >consider where they
>are
>> >coming from.
>>
>> Reasonable. You are coming from "how can I make a buck
>> off the rubes by selling them worthless and/or overpriced
>> products?"
>>
>> >Some show anger by the way they express themselves, some
>> >have an alliance with a radical group, there should be
>> >some balance of thoughts, some have no credentials to be
>> >speaking about the subject they are speaking about.
>>
>> Well, that last certainly describes you. Aren't you the
>> guy who had arteries and veins backwards?
>>
>> >I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet who
>> >was a nurse and has had no experience with holistic
>> >healing. She writes with anger (a sure sign of illness)
>>
>> No, a common sign of irritation with you, Spammin' Dave.
>>
>> >for a radical organization that seems to desire to
>> >blindly stamp out holistic medicine.
>> >
>> >The result is that it reads as propoganda not truthful
>> >information.
>>
>> And your stuff reads like a sales pitch written by an
>> ignoramus, which is far worse.
David Wright
In article <PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Dave Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Now you display who you are. All living things are
>spiritual beings.
Define "spiritual," Spammin' Dave. Bet you can't do it.
>Those who deny the existence of some kind of spirit who
>created us is, described as a lost soul.
No, they are described as "atheists." And if some spirit
created you, I think it should be fired and replaced by one
that can do a better job.
>I am always curious to know who you think designed the
>human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
>throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not too
>distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
>medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
>refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It describes
>the shortcomings of some physicians.
No, your inability to grasp it describes the severe
limitations of your intelligence.
>You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
>diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
>able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
>some understanding of healing, you would discover that
>removing body parts is not healing, it is mutilation.
And not removing them can cause death. I'll go with Peter
Moran on this one. Better to not have to remove them, but
I'll suffer the removal if the alternative is worse.
>The reason I say that is simply because a diseased
>organ can be restored by treating the underlying cause
>of the disease.
Ah, the usual song of the quack. You can treat the
"underlying cause," which it just so happens that you know,
and are ready to sell us. Sure you can.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Dave Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Now you display who you are. All living things are
>spiritual beings.
Define "spiritual," Spammin' Dave. Bet you can't do it.
>Those who deny the existence of some kind of spirit who
>created us is, described as a lost soul.
No, they are described as "atheists." And if some spirit
created you, I think it should be fired and replaced by one
that can do a better job.
>I am always curious to know who you think designed the
>human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
>throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not too
>distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
>medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
>refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It describes
>the shortcomings of some physicians.
No, your inability to grasp it describes the severe
limitations of your intelligence.
>You recently told me you were a healer because you removed
>diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if you were
>able to step back and open your mind, talk to someone with
>some understanding of healing, you would discover that
>removing body parts is not healing, it is mutilation.
And not removing them can cause death. I'll go with Peter
Moran on this one. Better to not have to remove them, but
I'll suffer the removal if the alternative is worse.
>The reason I say that is simply because a diseased
>organ can be restored by treating the underlying cause
>of the disease.
Ah, the usual song of the quack. You can treat the
"underlying cause," which it just so happens that you know,
and are ready to sell us. Sure you can.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Dave Wickware
"Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
news:40e78afe$0$18343$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
>
> "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
> >
>
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> > >
> > > "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > > message news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglob-
> > > al.com...
> > > > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > > > consider where
they
> > are
> > > > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > > > themselves, some have an alliance with
a
> > > > radical group, there should be some balance of
> > > > thoughts, some have no credentials to be speaking
> about
> > > the
> > > > subject they are speaking about.
> > > >
> > > > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet
> > > > who was a nurse
and
> > has
> > > > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes
> > > > with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a
radical
> > > > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp
> > > > out holistic medicine.
> > >
> > > I liked it because of her perceptiveness and
> > > eloquence. But if you
> look
> > at
> > > all the evidence the things she specifically targets
> > > are mostly
> > transparent
> > > nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of
> > > more sensible
alt
> > > supporters.
> > >
> > > Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> > > alt.med truly
> > practice
> > > that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> > > pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the
> > > time. Nowadays it's usually "the
> toxins".
> > > The patient is sent on their way with a variety of
> > > measures to
"treat"
> > > that.
> > >
> > > Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness,
> > > half of alt.med
> > wants
> > > to deny that psychosomatic factors can be
> > > contributory, and seeks an external physical cause for
> > > every complaint, such as amalgams or
> > parasites.
> > > Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> > > cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if
> > > they cannot deal with it.
Not
>
> > > very holistic either.
> > >
> > > Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> > > even less
> focussed
> > > alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing offense to
> > > those with real spiritual connections with fanciful
> > > pseudoscientific gabblings.
> >
> > Now you display who you are. All living things are
> > spiritual beings.
Your
> > confusion seems to cause you to believe that there are
> > different kinds of spirituality. You seem to
> imply
> > that there is one kind for people who understand
> > wholistic healing, and another kind that is your kind.
> > In truth there is spirituality or a vacant abyss.
> > Spirituality is merely the understanding of the
> > foregoing and healers are connected with their
> > spiritually. Those who deny the existence of some kind
> > of spirit who created us is, described as a lost soul.
> >
> > I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> > human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> > throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> > too distant past explain to me that when nature fails
us
> > medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> > refer to as
severe
> > arrogance disillusionment. It describes the shortcomings
> > of some
> physicians.
> >
> > You recently told me you were a healer because you
> > removed diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if
> > you were able to step back and open your mind, talk to
> > someone with
> some
> > understanding of healing, you would discover that
> > removing body parts is not healing, it is
mutilation.
> > The reason I say that is simply because a diseased organ
> > can be restored by treating the underlying cause of the
> > disease. Once the cause of the problem is addressed the
> > person can be healed by their own body. That is what
> > healing is and it is rarely, if ever experienced by
> > traditional physicians. I work with small but growing
> > number of practising physicians who have opened their
> > minds and are beginning to heal people. A fully trained
> > holistic M.D. is the
way
> > our society can begin to win.
>
> This is what I mean by lack of focus. This tripe is from
> someone who insists that the wonders of ginseng will heal
> all. If "spiritual" healers need such artificial aids, and
> ones which are clearly not directed at the cause of any
> illness, what is wrong with drugs and surgeons?
>
> Even if you happen to have found a healer with pretensions
> to any deep spiritual understanding ( a supremely arrogant
> claim), it does not detract from my assertion that most of
> the medical attentions that alt.med offers have nothing at
> all to do with any interpretation of (w)holism. It is
> mostly " but my stuff and you will get well". And you know
> it. You even promote it.
>
> Peter Moran
Actually I promote the healing of sick people by many means.
I don't sell anything to the public. I teach about ginseng
to people who need to know. To refer to spiritual
understanding as supreme arrogance is the single most
ignorant thing you have ever said. You display a total lack
of understanding of anything vaguely related to healing.
news:40e78afe$0$18343$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
>
> "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message
> >
>
news:40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> > >
> > > "Dave Wickware" <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> > > message news:0jHFc.198990$207.2356151@news20.bellglob-
> > > al.com...
> > > > Whenever I look at the thoughts of someone I first
> > > > consider where
they
> > are
> > > > coming from. Some show anger by the way they express
> > > > themselves, some have an alliance with
a
> > > > radical group, there should be some balance of
> > > > thoughts, some have no credentials to be speaking
> about
> > > the
> > > > subject they are speaking about.
> > > >
> > > > I read this dissertation by a person who is a poet
> > > > who was a nurse
and
> > has
> > > > had no experience with holistic healing. She writes
> > > > with anger (a sure sign of illness) for a
radical
> > > > organization that seems to desire to blindly stamp
> > > > out holistic medicine.
> > >
> > > I liked it because of her perceptiveness and
> > > eloquence. But if you
> look
> > at
> > > all the evidence the things she specifically targets
> > > are mostly
> > transparent
> > > nonsense and are regarded as dubious even by a lot of
> > > more sensible
alt
> > > supporters.
> > >
> > > Everyone thinks medicine should be holistic, but does
> > > alt.med truly
> > practice
> > > that way? It mostly gives the patient a glib
> > > pseudiagnosis, usually whatever is in fashion at the
> > > time. Nowadays it's usually "the
> toxins".
> > > The patient is sent on their way with a variety of
> > > measures to
"treat"
> > > that.
> > >
> > > Far from having a truly holistic approach to illness,
> > > half of alt.med
> > wants
> > > to deny that psychosomatic factors can be
> > > contributory, and seeks an external physical cause for
> > > every complaint, such as amalgams or
> > parasites.
> > > Another section of alt.med thinks all illness, even
> > > cancer,. is psychosomatic and the patient's fault if
> > > they cannot deal with it.
Not
>
> > > very holistic either.
> > >
> > > Don't even get me started on spirituality, which is an
> > > even less
> focussed
> > > alt.med buzz-word, as often as not causing offense to
> > > those with real spiritual connections with fanciful
> > > pseudoscientific gabblings.
> >
> > Now you display who you are. All living things are
> > spiritual beings.
Your
> > confusion seems to cause you to believe that there are
> > different kinds of spirituality. You seem to
> imply
> > that there is one kind for people who understand
> > wholistic healing, and another kind that is your kind.
> > In truth there is spirituality or a vacant abyss.
> > Spirituality is merely the understanding of the
> > foregoing and healers are connected with their
> > spiritually. Those who deny the existence of some kind
> > of spirit who created us is, described as a lost soul.
> >
> > I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> > human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> > throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> > too distant past explain to me that when nature fails
us
> > medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> > refer to as
severe
> > arrogance disillusionment. It describes the shortcomings
> > of some
> physicians.
> >
> > You recently told me you were a healer because you
> > removed diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if
> > you were able to step back and open your mind, talk to
> > someone with
> some
> > understanding of healing, you would discover that
> > removing body parts is not healing, it is
mutilation.
> > The reason I say that is simply because a diseased organ
> > can be restored by treating the underlying cause of the
> > disease. Once the cause of the problem is addressed the
> > person can be healed by their own body. That is what
> > healing is and it is rarely, if ever experienced by
> > traditional physicians. I work with small but growing
> > number of practising physicians who have opened their
> > minds and are beginning to heal people. A fully trained
> > holistic M.D. is the
way
> > our society can begin to win.
>
> This is what I mean by lack of focus. This tripe is from
> someone who insists that the wonders of ginseng will heal
> all. If "spiritual" healers need such artificial aids, and
> ones which are clearly not directed at the cause of any
> illness, what is wrong with drugs and surgeons?
>
> Even if you happen to have found a healer with pretensions
> to any deep spiritual understanding ( a supremely arrogant
> claim), it does not detract from my assertion that most of
> the medical attentions that alt.med offers have nothing at
> all to do with any interpretation of (w)holism. It is
> mostly " but my stuff and you will get well". And you know
> it. You even promote it.
>
> Peter Moran
Actually I promote the healing of sick people by many means.
I don't sell anything to the public. I teach about ginseng
to people who need to know. To refer to spiritual
understanding as supreme arrogance is the single most
ignorant thing you have ever said. You display a total lack
of understanding of anything vaguely related to healing.
Dave Wickware
Tell me who YOU think designed you? The Easter Bunny?
"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:_b4Gc.803$wz4.719@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com>, Dave
> Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Now you display who you are. All living things are
> >spiritual beings.
>
> Define "spiritual," Spammin' Dave. Bet you can't do it.
>
> >Those who deny the existence of some kind of spirit who
> >created us is, described as a lost soul.
>
> No, they are described as "atheists." And if some spirit
> created you, I think it should be fired and replaced by
> one that can do a better job.
>
> >I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> >human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> >throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> >too distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
> >medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> >refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It
> >describes the shortcomings of some physicians.
>
> No, your inability to grasp it describes the severe
> limitations of your intelligence.
>
> >You recently told me you were a healer because you
> >removed diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if
> >you were able to step back and open your mind, talk to
> >someone with some understanding of healing, you would
> >discover that removing body parts is not healing, it is
> >mutilation.
>
> And not removing them can cause death. I'll go with Peter
> Moran on this one. Better to not have to remove them, but
> I'll suffer the removal if the alternative is worse.
>
> >The reason I say that is simply because a diseased organ
> >can be restored by treating the underlying cause of the
> >disease.
>
> Ah, the usual song of the quack. You can treat the
> "underlying cause," which it just so happens that you
> know, and are ready to sell us. Sure you can.
>
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
> opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
> have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
> were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
"David Wright" <wright@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:_b4Gc.803$wz4.719@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <PKJFc.199502$207.2390999@news20.bellglobal.com>, Dave
> Wickware <dwickware@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Now you display who you are. All living things are
> >spiritual beings.
>
> Define "spiritual," Spammin' Dave. Bet you can't do it.
>
> >Those who deny the existence of some kind of spirit who
> >created us is, described as a lost soul.
>
> No, they are described as "atheists." And if some spirit
> created you, I think it should be fired and replaced by
> one that can do a better job.
>
> >I am always curious to know who you think designed the
> >human body? Who designed the elaborate interaction
> >throughout the natural world. I had a doctor in the not
> >too distant past explain to me that when nature fails us
> >medical science is there to pick us up. This is what I
> >refer to as severe arrogance disillusionment. It
> >describes the shortcomings of some physicians.
>
> No, your inability to grasp it describes the severe
> limitations of your intelligence.
>
> >You recently told me you were a healer because you
> >removed diaeased body parts from sick people. Well, if
> >you were able to step back and open your mind, talk to
> >someone with some understanding of healing, you would
> >discover that removing body parts is not healing, it is
> >mutilation.
>
> And not removing them can cause death. I'll go with Peter
> Moran on this one. Better to not have to remove them, but
> I'll suffer the removal if the alternative is worse.
>
> >The reason I say that is simply because a diseased organ
> >can be restored by treating the underlying cause of the
> >disease.
>
> Ah, the usual song of the quack. You can treat the
> "underlying cause," which it just so happens that you
> know, and are ready to sell us. Sure you can.
>
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
> opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
> have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
> were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
Mark Thorson
But Jan, what was the LIE you are accusing me of telling?
What were my EXACT ORIGINAL WORDS which formed a LIE?
Why don't you you ever post an example of one of these LIES
you claim I told?
Why is that?
Why don't you post an example of an ORIGINAL STATEMENT made
by me which is a LIE?
Do you need help seeing what an ORIGINAL STATEMENT which is
a LIE looks like? Let me help you.
To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here:w.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-
m01.aol.com
Jan wrote:
> >From: Mark Thorson nospam@sonic.net
> >
> >Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
> >discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
> >what your motives may be.
> >
> >Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
> >pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.
>
> That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
> NEVER accused
anyone of
> any such thing.
>
> So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!
>
> You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!
----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
own people.
What were my EXACT ORIGINAL WORDS which formed a LIE?
Why don't you you ever post an example of one of these LIES
you claim I told?
Why is that?
Why don't you post an example of an ORIGINAL STATEMENT made
by me which is a LIE?
Do you need help seeing what an ORIGINAL STATEMENT which is
a LIE looks like? Let me help you.
To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here:w.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-
m01.aol.com
Jan wrote:
> >From: Mark Thorson nospam@sonic.net
> >
> >Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
> >discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
> >what your motives may be.
> >
> >Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
> >pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.
>
> That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
> NEVER accused
anyone of
> any such thing.
>
> So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!
>
> You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!
----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
own people.
Rich.
On 04 Jul 2004 01:05:09 GMT, jdrew63929@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: To see ourselves -------- From: "Peter Moran"
>>moringa@gil.com.au Date: 7/3/2004 4:44 PM Pacific Standard
>>Time Message-id: <40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
>>03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
>
>HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Peter, I am still waiting for you to
>show us all that kindness you claimed. Can't. That's
>what I thought. You are labeled as a LIAR, becuase you
>made it up!!!!!!
>
>Therefore we can't believe a cotton pickin thing you say.
>
And for the next ten years we have to look forward to
Jan reminding
Dr. Moran that he did not show us "all the kindness he
claimed" and repeatedly (and falsely) call him a liar.
This is Jan Drew's pattern. She repeatedly attacks
people if they don't answer her stupid questions. She
tries to bait them into getting angry by falsely
accusing them of anger. If Dr. Moran got angry at Jan
then Jan would use that anger to discredit him. She
might comment on his lack of bedside manner. It is so
predictable.
Jan is such a hateful and angry woman. Lord knows what if
anything happened in her life to make her so bitter. Sadly
she has no clue into her own anger. Instead she believes
that those who disagree with her POV are angry, badgers them
into getting angry which then confirms her own belief that
it is others, not her, who have the problem with anger. This
is one very sick lady.
Jan claims she is a Christian. Jesus's words have been
posted repeatedly regarding not judging others if you are
guilty of what you are charging them. Not only is Dr. Moran
not lying but Jan is guilty of repeated lying.
In case Jan does not know what a lie is:
> >From: Mark Thorson nospam@sonic.net
> >
> >Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
> >discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
> >what your motives may be.
> >
> >Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
> >pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.
>
> That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
> NEVER accused
anyone of
> any such thing.
>
> So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!
>
> You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!
----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
own people.
Jan Drew has had the opportunity to respond to the above.
She obviously has read it since she responds directly to
the posts where it is written. But instead of addressing
the allegation that she lied, Jan tries to divert
attention by changing the subject. This is the behavior of
a guilty person.
Jan Drew knows that when she said that she never said
anything of the sort when she was accused to saying that
someone was getting paid by pharma company, that she was
lying. Her ego won't let her admit the truth. She tries to
falsely hide behind Christianity while she acts completely
disrespectfully of the words of Jesus Christ. She spits on
the words of Jesus.
Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor. How
often does Jan falsely accuse others of lying, stalking,
being members of EOM?? And she wonders why she becomes the
focus of discussion here?? Lord have mercy on Jan's soul.
Aloha,
Rich
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
The best defense to logic is ignorance
>>Subject: Re: To see ourselves -------- From: "Peter Moran"
>>moringa@gil.com.au Date: 7/3/2004 4:44 PM Pacific Standard
>>Time Message-id: <40e75227$0$18336$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
>>03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>
>
>HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Peter, I am still waiting for you to
>show us all that kindness you claimed. Can't. That's
>what I thought. You are labeled as a LIAR, becuase you
>made it up!!!!!!
>
>Therefore we can't believe a cotton pickin thing you say.
>
And for the next ten years we have to look forward to
Jan reminding
Dr. Moran that he did not show us "all the kindness he
claimed" and repeatedly (and falsely) call him a liar.
This is Jan Drew's pattern. She repeatedly attacks
people if they don't answer her stupid questions. She
tries to bait them into getting angry by falsely
accusing them of anger. If Dr. Moran got angry at Jan
then Jan would use that anger to discredit him. She
might comment on his lack of bedside manner. It is so
predictable.
Jan is such a hateful and angry woman. Lord knows what if
anything happened in her life to make her so bitter. Sadly
she has no clue into her own anger. Instead she believes
that those who disagree with her POV are angry, badgers them
into getting angry which then confirms her own belief that
it is others, not her, who have the problem with anger. This
is one very sick lady.
Jan claims she is a Christian. Jesus's words have been
posted repeatedly regarding not judging others if you are
guilty of what you are charging them. Not only is Dr. Moran
not lying but Jan is guilty of repeated lying.
In case Jan does not know what a lie is:
> >From: Mark Thorson nospam@sonic.net
> >
> >Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
> >discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
> >what your motives may be.
> >
> >Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
> >pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.
>
> That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
> NEVER accused
anyone of
> any such thing.
>
> So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!
>
> You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!
----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
own people.
Jan Drew has had the opportunity to respond to the above.
She obviously has read it since she responds directly to
the posts where it is written. But instead of addressing
the allegation that she lied, Jan tries to divert
attention by changing the subject. This is the behavior of
a guilty person.
Jan Drew knows that when she said that she never said
anything of the sort when she was accused to saying that
someone was getting paid by pharma company, that she was
lying. Her ego won't let her admit the truth. She tries to
falsely hide behind Christianity while she acts completely
disrespectfully of the words of Jesus Christ. She spits on
the words of Jesus.
Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor. How
often does Jan falsely accuse others of lying, stalking,
being members of EOM?? And she wonders why she becomes the
focus of discussion here?? Lord have mercy on Jan's soul.
Aloha,
Rich
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
The best defense to logic is ignorance
Mark Thorson
But Jan, what was the LIE you are accusing me of telling?
What were my EXACT ORIGINAL WORDS which formed a LIE?
Why don't you you ever post an example of one of these LIES
you claim I told?
Why is that?
Why don't you post an example of an ORIGINAL STATEMENT made
by me which is a LIE?
Do you need help seeing what an ORIGINAL STATEMENT which is
a LIE looks like? Let me help you.
To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here:w.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-
m01.aol.com
Jan wrote:
> >From: Mark Thorson nospam@sonic.net
> >
> >Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
> >discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
> >what your motives may be.
> >
> >Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
> >pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.
>
> That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
> NEVER accused
anyone of
> any such thing.
>
> So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!
>
> You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!
----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
own people.
What were my EXACT ORIGINAL WORDS which formed a LIE?
Why don't you you ever post an example of one of these LIES
you claim I told?
Why is that?
Why don't you post an example of an ORIGINAL STATEMENT made
by me which is a LIE?
Do you need help seeing what an ORIGINAL STATEMENT which is
a LIE looks like? Let me help you.
To see Jan's ORIGINAL POSTING, go here:w.google.com/groups?selm=20040310000815.25804.00001173%40mb-
m01.aol.com
Jan wrote:
> >From: Mark Thorson nospam@sonic.net
> >
> >Instead of responding to what you say, Jan is trying to
> >discredit you by making insinuations about who you are or
> >what your motives may be.
> >
> >Soon, she may accuse you of being on the payroll of the
> >pharmaceutical companies, etc. That's the way Jan works.
>
> That would be ANOTHER LIE from Mark Thorson. I have
> NEVER accused
anyone of
> any such thing.
>
> So do prove your claim Mark!!!!!
>
> You can't YOU JUST LIED AGAIN!!!!!!!
----- example quotes of Jan accusing people of being paid
shills -----
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030415173745.18794.00000646%40mb-
fn.aol.com
Any time alt. health is mentioned the personal trashing
starts. Mostly comes from paid shill Mark Probert.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030412210802.08778.00000680%40mb-
fw.aol.com
Internet bully Mark Probert who is a paid shill and lives
off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030410170838.14245.00000347%40mb-
ct.aol.com
As for Mark, he is a paid shill and lives off his wife.
Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:w.google.com/groups?selm=20030325123827.25124.00000246%40mb-
mn.aol.com
As long as Mark is here, the paid shill will call names
when in fact he is the one who is a bigot. Speaking of his
own people.
M.A.R.K P.R.O.B
"Jan" <jdrew63929@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040703210509.06753.00000913@mb-m13.aol.com...
> Therefore we can't believe a cotton pickin thing you say.
"We"???? Who appointed you mouthpiece for anyone?
rest of DrewDrivel deleted.
news:20040703210509.06753.00000913@mb-m13.aol.com...
> Therefore we can't believe a cotton pickin thing you say.
"We"???? Who appointed you mouthpiece for anyone?
rest of DrewDrivel deleted.
Automatic Translations (Powered by 
):
):
Multilingual community supported by vBET Translator 3.2.2
vBulletin, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0