View Full Version : where to correctly measure braising temperature?
where to correctly measure braising temperature?
hi,
when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to
"monitor & mmanage" the temp.
where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a
digital probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a
'slow braise'?
e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga &
carrot quarters in a wine braising liquid, inside a
LeCresuet pot.
should the probe be placed:
(f) in the braising liquid?
(g) in the veal shank?
(h) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?
thanks,
richard
OpenMac <OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasy.net> wrote:
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to
> "monitor & mmanage" the temp.
>
> where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a
> digital probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a
> 'slow braise'?
>
> e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot
> quarters in a wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet
> pot.
>
> should the probe be placed:
> (a) in the braising liquid?
Yes, in the liquid... if you must...
> (b) in the veal shank?
> (c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
>
> and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?
Don't sweat it, I'd say. Braising is essentially simmering
in a sealed vessel. So, just check if it does barely simmer
a few times, that's all. As long as the food is surrounded
by some watery liquid, the temperature won't exceed
boiling, anyway.
If you insist on sweating it, see, for example, <http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
03article.html>.
Victor
"OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasynet...
> hi,
>
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to
> "monitor & mmanage" the temp.
>
> where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a
> digital probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a
> 'slow braise'?
>
> e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot
> quarters in a wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet
> pot.
>
> should the probe be placed:
> (a) in the braising liquid?
> (b) in the veal shank?
> (c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
>
> and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?
>
> thanks,
>
> richard
>
Don't worry about the temp. The important thing is that the
liquid be bubbling slowly.
--
Peter Aitken
Remove the crap from my email address before using.
"OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasynet...
> hi,
>
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to
> "monitor & mmanage" the temp.
I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify
braising below 225F.
OpenMac wrote:
> hi,
>
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to
> "monitor & mmanage" the temp.
Braising isn't done in an oven with a lower temp than that.
What recipe calls for temps below 225? If you have a recipe
like that, ditch it.
Get a decent cookbook and read about braising. Forget
measuring temps, forget precision here. This is one of the
most forgiving methods of cooking.
Pastorio
> where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a
> digital probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a
> 'slow braise'?
>
> e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot
> quarters in a wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet
> pot.
>
> should the probe be placed:
> (a) in the braising liquid?
> (b) in the veal shank?
> (c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
>
> and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?
>
> thanks,
>
> richard
>> should the probe be placed:
>> (a) in the braising liquid?
>
> Yes, in the liquid... if you must...
ok.
>
> Don't sweat it, I'd say. Braising is essentially simmering
> in a sealed vessel. So, just check if it does barely
> simmer a few times, that's all. As long as the food is
> surrounded by some watery liquid, the temperature won't
> exceed boiling, anyway.
so, the next question (argument?) is HOW MUCH liquid? ...
i've heard/read everything from "just a half inch deep"
to "1/3 of the meat should be submerged" to "barely
covered" ...
>
> If you insist on sweating it, see, for example, <http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
> 03article.html>.
This is an excellent site! speaks to the (former) cone-
head in me ...
thx!
richard
On 2004-07-02 16:57:49 -0700, "Vox Humana" <vhumana@hotmail.com> said:
>
> "OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasy.net> wrote in
> message news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspe-
> akeasynet...
>> hi,
>>
>> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
>> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like
>> to "monitor & mmanage" the temp.
>
> I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify
> braising below 225F.
won't that have your liquid at a hearty, rolling boil?
if braising requires a simmering liquid, and simmering
occurs in the 180-200 range (for low, med, high simmer ...),
what's, then , going on in your 300F braise?
> Braising isn't done in an oven with a lower temp than
> that. What recipe calls for temps below 225? If you have a
> recipe like that, ditch it.
>
> Get a decent cookbook and read about braising. Forget
> measuring temps, forget precision here. This is one of the
> most forgiving methods of cooking.
>
> Pastorio
you've apparently never had a whole beef shank slow-braised
over a low-simmer for 6-8 hours ... to each his own.
"OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:2004070217284316807%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasynet...
> On 2004-07-02 16:57:49 -0700, "Vox Humana"
> <vhumana@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >
> > "OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspeakeasy.net> wrote in
> > message news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEs-
> > peakeasynet...
> >> hi,
> >>
> >> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven
> >> won't reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ),
> >> I'd like to "monitor & mmanage" the temp.
> >
> > I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify
> > braising below
225F.
>
> won't that have your liquid at a hearty, rolling boil?
>
> if braising requires a simmering liquid, and simmering
> occurs in the 180-200 range (for low, med, high simmer
> ...), what's, then , going on in your 300F braise?
>
You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is
at the boiling point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At
180F you are just giving it a nice sauna. Three-hundred is
a pretty common temperature for braising. Some people go
to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than what
you proposed.
OpenMac wrote:
>> Braising isn't done in an oven with a lower temp than
>> that. What recipe calls for temps below 225? If you have
>> a recipe like that, ditch it.
>>
>> Get a decent cookbook and read about braising. Forget
>> measuring temps, forget precision here. This is one of
>> the most forgiving methods of cooking.
>>
>> Pastorio
>
> you've apparently never had a whole beef shank slow-
> braised over a low-simmer for 6-8 hours ... to each
> his own.
First, before you decide to come after a professional chef,
at least learn the correct terminology. Second, learn about
the subject at hand. Third, Read what's on the screen before
typing crap. How your crippled logic could possibly come up
with as profoundly stupid a thing to say as this is simply
boggling. Perhaps it's stimulated by your equally profound
ignorance.
By definition, braising is a slow, moist cooking method
which, also by definition, is a forgiving way to cook. That
means that timing isn't so significant. That means that
temperature can vary appreciably from your listed temps,
either as a constant or variably during the cook and still
do the right job. It means that the amount of liquid can
vary greatly and still get a good result. It means that
stupid blunders like the ones you're very likely to make
won't ruin the dish. Oh, braising is cooking *in* liquid,
not *over* a low simmer. If you meant something else, you
sure didn't say it very well.
Beef shanks are properly cross-sectional cuts of beef leg
bones, most often forelegs, but they can also be cut from
the end of the round called the hindshank. Whole shanks
are virtually never sold at retail. Typically, they're
cut into about 2-inch lengths with a ring of meat
surrounding the bone.
Your ignorance and inexperience is showing. Don't try to
argue from your scant knowledge, there are too many people
who know better reading along.
Parenthetically, I've had a whole sheep braised over a fire
in a hammered copper pot out in the desert. There wasn't a
thermometer or pseudo-scientist within a hundred miles.
About every half-hour, somebody lifted the lid and poked a
knife into the meat. When it was judged tender enough and
smelled maddeningly succulent, we ate. It was a splendid,
primitive meal.
Pastorio
> You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is
> at the boiling point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At
> 180F you are just giving it a nice sauna. Three-hundred is
> a pretty common temperature for braising. Some people go
> to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than what
> you proposed.
again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in
the best method for monitoring/controlling the temperature.
as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
03article.html
"To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must
maintain an important balance. Cooking temperatures must be
high enough to kill microorganisms, yet not so high that the
meat toughens. Use a thermometer to check the temperature of
the surrounding stock and keep it at a simmer of 180 F/82
C-190 °F/88 °C."
from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~
"med simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by
def'n, is boiling.
try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll
start seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
richard
OpenMac wrote:
>> You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid
>> is at the boiling point. At sea level, that would be
>> 212F. At 180F you are just giving it a nice sauna. Three-
>> hundred is a pretty common temperature for braising. Some
>> people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier
>> than what you proposed.
>=20
> again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in
> the best method for monitoring/controlling the
> temperature.
>=20
> as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>=20
> at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>=20
> e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
> 03article.html
>=20
> "To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must
> maintain an important balance. Cooking temperatures must
> be high enough to kill microorganisms, yet not so high
> that the meat toughens. Use a thermometer to check the
> temperature of the surrounding stock and keep it at a
> simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 =B0F/88 =B0C."
Yeah. I went to the site and read the brilliance there.
They're not a=20 very good source. "Braise" is French and
means "ember." The original=20 method was to bury the lidded
cast iron pot in the embers on the=20 hearth. Those
primitive cooks understood that the interior of the pot=20
would stay at or below boiling and didn't need any
measurements to do=20 the right job..
They make this assertion: "Too much space between the
ingredients and=20 the lid allows steam to condense and drip
from the lid's underside=20 onto the ingredients, diluting
the rich sauce."
They don't seem to grasp the notion that in their closed
vessel, all=20 the liquid that's going to be involved is
already in there. The steam=20 is the water from the liquid
in the container. It comes up out of the=20 sauce and then
drips back in. Good Dutch Oven lids have little nibs=20 that
stick down into the pot to exactly drip the condensate back
onto=20 the foods being cooked.
Their "science" lacks a certain, I dunno, science...
They can't seem to grasp that a closed container with water
in it=20 won't exceed 212=B0F. They don't understand the way
collagen works and=20 they have a flimsy grasp on what
happens when proteins denature.=20 They're simply wrong
about temperature effects on meats.
I love amateurs with degrees in Home Ec.
Clicking on their links get you to this dazzlement: " To
keep the=20 tissues from drying during cooking, fish
requires higher temperatures=20 and shorter cooking times
than meat. A general rule of thumb for=20 cooking is 10
minutes per inch of thickness, but this varies according=20
to cooking method, heat intensity, and fish size. Use a
cooking=20 thermometer to gauge doneness more precisely.
Fish is cooked when a=20 thermometer (we recommend the
slender digital kind) inserted into the=20 thickest part of
the flesh reaches 140=B0 F."
Really? Flounder should be cooked at higher temps than beef?
They=20 never heard of poaching? En papillote?
That "10 minutes" rule came from the Canadian Fisheries
folks and=20 their rule is that it applies *irrespective* of
cooking method and, to=20 my profound surprise, it works.
You need to insert about 4-inches of=20 the stem of the
thermo into food to get a decent reading, and then=20 it's
an average over the length of the shaft. If you can't look
at a=20 piece of fish and see when it's done, poke with your
finger and see=20 when it's done, step away from the food.
> from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~
> "med simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by
> def'n, is boiling.
>=20
> try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ...
> you'll start seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
Actually, you'll see bubbles way before that. They begin to
form well=20 below 140=B0F as air collects on the "seeds" on
the sides and bottom of=20 the vessel.
But you keep missing the points. 1) In spite of what these
two=20 non-cooks say on this web site, you don't need to
monitor the=20 temperature inside the cooking vessel; the
laws of physics do that for=20 you. 2) An attempt at
constant monitoring of the temperature means=20 you're
poking around into the process and losing vessel heat,
which=20 needs to proceed essentially uninterrupted except
for occasional=20 testing as you approach the end of the
cook. 3) Cooking time isn't=20 very critical because once
you get meat over about 180=B0F, not much=20 more will
happen to it structurally until it gets to a boil and
then=20 only after many hours.
You are sophisticating yourself into paralysis. You are
making an=20 essentially simple process into an angst-ridden
foolishness. Your=20 grandmother did this and took care of
real life as well.
Pastorio
> "Vox Humana"
>
>I braise at 300F.
That's not possible (at sea level water boils at 212dF)
unless you use a super duper pressure cooker and then you'd
only cook whatever for about 4 minutes or less Idiot.
---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =--- ---= Move
UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without
tribulation." Sheldon ````````````
"OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:2004070221334850073%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasynet...
> > You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid
> > is at the
boiling
> > point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are
> > just giving
it a
> > nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature
> > for braising. Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it
> > will be lots easier than what
you
> > proposed.
>
> again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in
> the best method for monitoring/controlling the
> temperature.
>
> as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>
> at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>
>
> e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
> 03article.html
>
> "To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must
> maintain an important balance. Cooking temperatures must
> be high enough to kill microorganisms, yet not so high
> that the meat toughens. Use a thermometer to check the
> temperature of the surrounding stock and keep it at a
> simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 °F/88 °C."
>
> from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~
> "med simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by
> def'n, is boiling.
>
> try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ...
> you'll start seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
>
I would then recommend that you get an array of
thermocouples and connect each one to an analog to digital
converter. Connect the convert to a multi-channel board that
allows you to transfer the data to a computer. On a separate
I/) port, connect an interface device that is computable
with the electronic oven controller in you oven. Write a
custom software package that monitors the oven conditions
and food temperature and keeps everything within a few
hundredths of a degree of your desired internal meat
temperature. Be sure to allow for the fact than most ovens
vary as much as 25F +/- from the set temperature.
In lieu of that, set your oven temperature at 300F, put you
food in a heavy vessel with a tight fitting lid, and go
away for three to four hours. Most people consider braising
to be a "door slammer" technique. In other words, you slam
the door and walk away. It's literally NOT rocket science.
The type of food that one braises is generally lower cost
cuts of meat that are tough, but big on flavor. If you
don't believe me (or every cookbook ever written), go to
the store, get a chuck roast, brown it, add liquid and
seasoning, and put it in a 300F for four hours. I've been
doing that for over 40 years and it works every time.
Vox Humana wrote:
> "OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
> news:2004070221334850073%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasynet...
>=20
>>>You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid
>>>is at the
>=20
> boiling
>=20
>>>point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are
>>>just giving=
>=20
> it a
>=20
>>>nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature
>>>for braising=
=2E
>>>Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots
>>>easier than wha=
t
>=20
> you
>=20
>>>proposed.
>>
>>again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in
>>the best method for monitoring/controlling the
>>temperature.
>>
>>as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>>
>>at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>>
>>
>>e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
>> 03article.html
>>
>>"To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must
>>maintain an important balance. Cooking temperatures must
>>be high enough to kill microorganisms, yet not so high
>>that the meat toughens. Use a thermometer to check the
>>temperature of the surrounding stock and keep it at a
>>simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 =B0F/88 =B0C."
>>
>>from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~
>>"med simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by
>>def'n, is boiling.
>>
>>try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ...
>>you'll start seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
>>
>=20 20
> I would then recommend that you get an array of
> thermocouples and conne=
ct
> each one to an analog to digital converter. Connect the
> convert to a multi-channel board that allows you to
> transfer the data to a computer.=
On
> a separate I/) port, connect an interface device that is
> computable wit=
h the
> electronic oven controller in you oven. Write a custom
> software packag=
e
> that monitors the oven conditions and food temperature and
> keeps everyt=
hing
> within a few hundredths of a degree of your desired
> internal meat temperature. Be sure to allow for the fact
> than most ovens vary as muc=
h as
> 25F +/- from the set temperature.
Jeez. <slaps forehead> Of course.
Why didn't I think of that...? It's just so obvious when you
see it,=20 knowwadImean?
Pastorio
>=20
> In lieu of that, set your oven temperature at 300F, put
> you food in a =
heavy
> vessel with a tight fitting lid, and go away for three to
> four hours. =
Most
> people consider braising to be a "door slammer" technique.
> In other wo=
rds,
> you slam the door and walk away. It's literally NOT rocket
> science. T=
he
> type of food that one braises is generally lower cost cuts
> of meat that=
are
> tough, but big on flavor. If you don't believe me (or
> every cookbook e=
ver
> written), go to the store, get a chuck roast, brown it,
> add liquid and seasoning, and put it in a 300F for four
> hours. I've been doing that f=
or
> over 40 years and it works every time.
>=20 20
"Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:10eefcblti0jh0b@corp.supernews.com...
Vox Humana wrote:
> "OpenMac" <OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
> news:2004070221334850073%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasynet...
>
>>>You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid
>>>is at the
>
> boiling
>
>>>point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are
>>>just giving
>
> it a
>
>>>nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature
>>>for braising. Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it
>>>will be lots easier than what
>
> you
>
>>>proposed.
>>
>>again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in
>>the best method for monitoring/controlling the
>>temperature.
>>
>>as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>>
>>at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>>
>>
>>e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-
>> 03article.html
>>
>>"To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must
>>maintain an important balance. Cooking temperatures must
>>be high enough to kill microorganisms, yet not so high
>>that the meat toughens. Use a thermometer to check the
>>temperature of the surrounding stock and keep it at a
>>simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 °F/88 °C."
>>
>>from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~
>>"med simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by
>>def'n, is boiling.
>>
>>try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ...
>>you'll start seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
>>
>
>
> I would then recommend that you get an array of
> thermocouples and connect each one to an analog to digital
> converter. Connect the convert to a multi-channel board
> that allows you to transfer the data to a computer.
On
> a separate I/) port, connect an interface device that is
> computable with
the
> electronic oven controller in you oven. Write a custom
> software package that monitors the oven conditions and
> food temperature and keeps
everything
> within a few hundredths of a degree of your desired
> internal meat temperature. Be sure to allow for the fact
> than most ovens vary as much
as
> 25F +/- from the set temperature.
Jeez. <slaps forehead> Of course.
Why didn't I think of that...? It's just so obvious when you
see it, knowwadImean?
Pastorio
You aren't watching enough Alton Brown or reading Cook's
Illustrated!
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