Big ears and noses

[Joseph]

The nose and the ears are said to never stop growing. Is
this true, or is it only the loss of elasticity that
explains the apparent growth of these parts over adult time?

[Griffin]

On 2004-06-28 19:04:04 -0400, "Joseph" <js@mixmix.com> said:

> The nose and the ears are said to never stop growing.

Says who?

[Joseph]

In July 1993, 19 members of the south east Thames faculty of the Royal
College of General Practitioners gathered at Bore Place, in Kent, to
consider how best to encourage ordinary general practitioners to carry out
research. Someone said, "Why do old men have big ears? Some members thought
that this was obviously true--indeed some old men have very big ears--but
others doubted it, and so we set out to answer the question "As you get
older do your ears get bigger?" 206 patients were studied (mean age 53.75,
range 30-93, median age 53 years). The length of the left external ear was
measured from the top to the lowest part with a transparent ruler; the
result (in millimetres), together with the patient's age, was recorded. The
mean ear length was 675 mm (range 520-840 mm), and the linear regression
equation was: ear length=55.9+(0.22 x patient's age) (95% confidence
intervals 0.17 to 0.27). It seems therefore that as we get older our ears
get bigger (on average by 0.22 mm a year). (James A Heathcote BMJ
1995;311:1668, 23December)

The question here is the whole of the mechanism behind this
phenomenon.

"Griffin" <nospam@here.net> wrote in message
news:2004062819163116807%nospam@herenet...
> On 2004-06-28 19:04:04 -0400, "Joseph"
> <js@mixmix.com> said:
>
> > The nose and the ears are said to never stop growing.
>
> Says who?

[Bob]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:25:08 -0400, "Joseph" <js@mixmix.com> wrote:

> In July 1993, 19 members of the south east Thames faculty
> of the Royal College of General Practitioners gathered at
> Bore Place, in Kent, to consider how best to encourage
> ordinary general practitioners to carry out research.
> Someone said, "Why do old men have big ears? Some members
> thought that this was obviously true--indeed some old men
> have very big ears--but others doubted it, and so we set
> out to answer the question "As you get older do your ears
> get bigger?" 206 patients were studied (mean age 53.75,
> range 30-93, median age 53 years). The length of the left
> external ear was measured from the top to the lowest part
> with a transparent ruler; the result (in millimetres),
> together with the patient's age, was recorded. The mean
> ear length was 675 mm (range 520-840 mm)

presumably you meant 67.5 etc.

>, and the linear regression equation was: ear
>length=55.9+(0.22 x patient's age) (95% confidence
>intervals 0.17 to 0.27). It seems therefore that as we get
>older our ears get bigger (on average by 0.22 mm a year).
>(James A Heathcote BMJ 1995;311:1668, 23December)
>
>The question here is the whole of the mechanism behind this
>phenomenon.
>

A good start would be to realize what it is you measured.
You have not shown that anyone's ears grows over time --
merely that the older people available to you for this study
had bigger ears. That might have reflected differences
between childhood growth in those growing up at various
times. Now, what you measured was the easy thing to measure;
not unreasonable to do that. But now you need to do a better
expt, and measure the ears of real people over many years,
to see if they grow.

The "growth" the result shows is quite small compared to the
range of ear sizes measured. Since you have not measured
growth, I would be quite cautious about interpreting it in
terms of growth.

bob

[Joseph]

Sir, we know that ears and noses get bigger between 20
years old and 80 years old. Do you really think that the
senior gentlemen with such elephant ears walked around
like that 20?

"Bob" <bbruner@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:o8f4e0tbimekanoomb5mo36mpv62nofuvg@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:25:08 -0400, "Joseph"
> <js@mixmix.com> wrote:
>
> >In July 1993, 19 members of the south east Thames faculty
> > of the Royal
> >College of General Practitioners gathered at Bore Place,
> > in Kent, to
> > consider how best to encourage ordinary general
> > practitioners to carry
out
> >research. Someone said, "Why do old men have big ears?
> >Some members
thought
> >that this was obviously true--indeed some old men have
> >very big ears--but others doubted it, and so we set out
> >to answer the question "As you get older do your ears get
> >bigger?" 206 patients were studied (mean age
53.75,
> >range 30-93, median age 53 years). The length of the left
> >external ear
was
> >measured from the top to the lowest part with a
> >transparent ruler; the result (in millimetres), together
> >with the patient's age, was recorded.
The
> >mean ear length was 675 mm (range 520-840 mm)
>
>
> presumably you meant 67.5 etc.
>
>
> >, and the linear regression equation was: ear
> >length=55.9+(0.22 x patient's age) (95% confidence
> >intervals 0.17 to 0.27). It seems therefore that as we
> >get older our ears get bigger (on average by 0.22 mm a
> >year). (James A Heathcote BMJ 1995;311:1668, 23December)
> >
> >The question here is the whole of the mechanism behind
> >this phenomenon.
> >
>
> A good start would be to realize what it is you measured.
> You have not shown that anyone's ears grows over time --
> merely that the older people available to you for this
> study had bigger ears. That might have reflected
> differences between childhood growth in those growing up
> at various times. Now, what you measured was the easy
> thing to measure; not unreasonable to do that. But now you
> need to do a better expt, and measure the ears of real
> people over many years, to see if they grow.
>
> The "growth" the result shows is quite small compared to
> the range of ear sizes measured. Since you have not
> measured growth, I would be quite cautious about
> interpreting it in terms of growth.
>
> bob

[Griffin]

On 2004-06-30 10:55:21 -0400, "Joseph" <js@mixmix.com> said:

> Sir, we know that ears and noses get bigger between 20
> years old and 80 years old. Do you really think that the
> senior gentlemen with such elephant ears walked around
> like that 20?

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

[Bob]

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:55:21 -0400, "Joseph" <js@mixmix.com> wrote:

>Sir, we know that ears and noses get bigger between 20
>years old and 80 years old.

Who is "we"? You made a claim before, and people asked for
some evidence. The evidence presented is interesting, but
does not show "growth".

>Do you really think that the senior gentlemen with such
>elephant ears walked around like that 20?

I don't know. That is why we asked for evidence. Do you have
any? (Doing the correct measurement is not so easy to do, so
it is ok to admit that you do not.)

Exaggeration (talking about elephant ears) is not helpful.
By the curve you gave, the growth from 20 to 80 would be
just over 1 cm -- less than a half inch.

bob

>
>"Bob" <bbruner@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
>news:o8f4e0tbimekanoomb5mo36mpv62nofuvg@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:25:08 -0400, "Joseph"
>> <js@mixmix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > In July 1993, 19 members of the south east Thames
>> > faculty of the Royal
>> >College of General Practitioners gathered at Bore Place,
>> > in Kent, to
>> > consider how best to encourage ordinary general
>> > practitioners to carry
>out
>> >research. Someone said, "Why do old men have big ears?
>> >Some members
>thought
>> >that this was obviously true--indeed some old men have
>> >very big ears--but others doubted it, and so we set out
>> >to answer the question "As you get older do your ears
>> >get bigger?" 206 patients were studied (mean age
>53.75,
>> >range 30-93, median age 53 years). The length of the
>> >left external ear
>was
>> >measured from the top to the lowest part with a
>> >transparent ruler; the result (in millimetres), together
>> >with the patient's age, was recorded.
>The
>> >mean ear length was 675 mm (range 520-840 mm)
>>
>>
>> presumably you meant 67.5 etc.
>>
>>
>> >, and the linear regression equation was: ear
>> >length=55.9+(0.22 x patient's age) (95% confidence
>> >intervals 0.17 to 0.27). It seems therefore that as we
>> >get older our ears get bigger (on average by 0.22 mm a
>> >year). (James A Heathcote BMJ 1995;311:1668, 23December)
>> >
>> >The question here is the whole of the mechanism behind
>> >this phenomenon.
>> >
>>
>> A good start would be to realize what it is you measured.
>> You have not shown that anyone's ears grows over time --
>> merely that the older people available to you for this
>> study had bigger ears. That might have reflected
>> differences between childhood growth in those growing up
>> at various times. Now, what you measured was the easy
>> thing to measure; not unreasonable to do that. But now
>> you need to do a better expt, and measure the ears of
>> real people over many years, to see if they grow.
>>
>> The "growth" the result shows is quite small compared to
>> the range of ear sizes measured. Since you have not
>> measured growth, I would be quite cautious about
>> interpreting it in terms of growth.
>>
>> bob
>>
>