Rapid Rise Derailier
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Hi,
Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
type where you can shift more than one gear at a time by
pressing the lever further ?
just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
Thanx
TJ wrote:
> Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
> type where you can shift more than one gear at a time by
> pressing the lever further ?
I think rapid rise is only available on Shimano XTR (top end
MTB) derailleurs; it improves downshifting.
But I could very well be wrong.
"TJ" <tj@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:10et6f53h05aoaf@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi,
>
> Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
> type where you
can
> shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
> further ?
>
> just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
>
> Thanx
>
I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the
derailleur wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise
derailleur with equally cheapo shifters on a bike at the
moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear at a time
but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between
it and regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring
wants to pull it onto the bigger sprockets by default,rather
than the smaller ones. This always confuses me when I have
to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if
I've got it the wrong way round again.
tony R.
tony R wrote:
> "TJ" <tj@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:10et6f53h05aoaf@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
>>type where you
>
> can
>
>>shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
>>further ?
>>
>>just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
>>
>>Thanx
>>
>
> I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the
> derailleur wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise
> derailleur with equally cheapo shifters on a bike at the
> moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear at a
> time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference
> between it and regular derailleurs, I think, is that its
> spring wants to pull it onto the bigger sprockets by
> default,rather than the smaller ones. This always confuses
> me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't
> be surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.
>
> tony R.
>
>
Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website
have some info on this, I think it's only on the top end
stuff of theirs, check the derailleur/sprocket info on the
site for the kit you have, it'll say if it's rapid rise or
not on there.
Mine's Tiagra and doesn't have the RR, but I can drop up to
three gears in a single lever push on the sprockets if I so
choose, so it's definitely not referring to that.
--
Velvet
tony R wrote:
> "TJ" <tj@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:10et6f53h05aoaf@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
>>type where you
>
> can
>
>>shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
>>further ?
>>
>>just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
>>
>>Thanx
>>
>
> I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the
> derailleur wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise
> derailleur with equally cheapo shifters on a bike at the
> moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear at a
> time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference
> between it and regular derailleurs, I think, is that its
> spring wants to pull it onto the bigger sprockets by
> default,rather than the smaller ones. This always confuses
> me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't
> be surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.
>
I think Tony has it: see
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_r.html#rapidrise
Peter
"TJ" <tj@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:10et6f53h05aoaf@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi,
>
> Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
> type where you
can
> shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
> further ?
>
> just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
>
No, 'rapid rise' means low-normal. Ie. to change 'up' you
are pushing against the derailleur spring, changing down
releases the spring tension to pull the derailleur into a
_lower_ gear. This is the opposite of normal derailleur
operation which is high-normal. With rapidrise the shift
lever action which would normally get you a higher gear gets
you a lower one instead - it reverses the action of the
shifter levers and provides quicker downshifting.
Rich
"Velvet" <velvet@not.a.valid.domain> wrote in message
news:mexHc.1957$_V5.18583598@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website
> have some info on this, I think it's only on the top end
> stuff of theirs, .........
My Dawes Discovery 201 is almost blushing at the
thought that it came with top end bits. You're too kind
Velvet ;-) The derailleur in question is a Shimano
C050. Which I believe is so low end it's almost fallen
off. I think there's then a gap up to XT/XTR when rapid
rise appears again.
tony R.
Richard Goodman wrote:
> "TJ" <tj@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:10et6f53h05aoaf@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
>>type where you
>
> can
>
>>shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
>>further ?
>>
>>just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
>>
>
>
> No, 'rapid rise' means low-normal. Ie. to change 'up' you
> are pushing against the derailleur spring, changing down
> releases the spring tension to pull the derailleur into a
> _lower_ gear. This is the opposite of normal derailleur
> operation which is high-normal. With rapidrise the shift
> lever action which would normally get you a higher gear
> gets you a lower one instead - it reverses the action of
> the shifter levers and provides quicker downshifting.
>
> Rich
>
>
>
Hmm, puzzled now.. so the time to shift is fastest if it's
done by the spring, rather than finger power, yes?
Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for
acceleration - but not by more than one or maybe two gears
at a time, while dropping down if it takes longer you can
simply drop two instead of one+one gear - or is it a case
that a powerful rider would want to change up more than a
gear at a time (which is the limitation on non-rr shimano
shifters, it's click click click to notch up three gears,
for example) but would tend to drop down them using lots of
single-drop but fast changes?
--
Velvet
Velvet wrote:
> Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for
> acceleration
This is why it's aimed at MTBs, where he need to change down
rapidly is more of a necessity (very steep, sudden climbs).
I think.
tony R wrote:
> "Velvet" <velvet@not.a.valid.domain> wrote in message news:mexHc.1957$_V5.18583598@news-
> text.cableinet.net...
>
>
>>Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website
>>have some info on this, I think it's only on the top end
>>stuff of theirs, .........
>
> My Dawes Discovery 201 is almost blushing at the
> thought that it came with top end bits. You're too kind
> Velvet ;-) The derailleur in question is a Shimano
> C050. Which I believe is so low end it's almost fallen
> off. I think there's then a gap up to XT/XTR when rapid
> rise appears again.
>
> tony R.
>
>
>
Ah well, you never know!! Mine's a Dawes Audax that came
with Tiagra stuff (though now three years old), which while
not top-end seems very nice, very smooth, and has drawn
admiring comments from other riders occasionally... so it
was always possible you did have toward the top end
components on your bike, whether as factory or fitted
afterwards...
Especially given the amount of bike fettling that I see
posted about in here sometimes ;-)
--
Velvet
> Hi,
>
> Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the
> type where you
can
> shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
> further ?
>
> just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
>
> Thanx
>
Rapid rise is now available on Shimano XT, and next year,
LX. Don't know about roadie equipment, being a mtber.
I think it means that the derailleur essentially works in
reverse. What this means is: when you press your
thumbtrigger on your shifter (which would normally mean
change down the gears), you actually are changing up the
gears. And when you pull the finger trigger (would normally
be changing up) you are actually changing down.
As for why.... I think it's because derailleurs are sprung a
particular way and hence shifting up is easier than shifting
down. Rapid rise is there to change that round. I think
HTH] Nick
Simonb wrote:
> Velvet wrote:
>
>
>>Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for
>>acceleration
>
>
> This is why it's aimed at MTBs, where he need to change
> down rapidly is more of a necessity (very steep, sudden
> climbs).
>
> I think.
>
>
Yebbut surely that's where the dropping three gears at
once is useful.. not that I'm a MTB-er, only having ridden
one once...
Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a
time, just that when it does drop, it does it with the
spring pulling and thus it's fast when it does it?
I think we need someone that has the RR on their bike to
sort this one out for us :-)
--
Velvet
Velvet wrote:
> Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a
> time, just that when it does drop, it does it with the
> spring pulling and thus it's fast when it does it?
This is precisely what it does.
"Velvet" <velvet@not.a.valid.domain> wrote in message
news:3gyHc.1996$ce6.18807018@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> Especially given the amount of bike fettling that I see
> posted about in here sometimes ;-)
Aint that the truth! In fact, the very same bike now has an
old (13 yr. old) XT chainset. From the sublime to the
ridiculous on one drivetrain. Although the ridiculous does
work very well. The fact that it shifts "by default" to the
bigger sprockets often comes in useful as this bike daily
pulls c. 50kg. of trailer and kids up a short, sharp hill.
tony R.
Simonb wrote:
> Velvet wrote:
>
>
>>Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a
>>time, just that when it does drop, it does it with the
>>spring pulling and thus it's fast when it does it?
>
>
> This is precisely what it does.
>
>
Ah, right, thanks for clearing that one up for me! I
realised halfway through I was probably confusing two
separate issues with how it all works, though I'm not
quite sure how you'd judge the drop down 1, 2 or 3 if it's
on a spring to drop quicker.. but maybe that's cos I ride
a road bike with drops rather than indexed shifters for
straight bars...
I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right
hand bar) to drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how
long I push it over for - I'm working against the spring
force, so can control how many gears to drop fairly easily
that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller lever
inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.
--
Velvet
In article <MZyHc.2032$IU6.19362050@news-
text.cableinet.net>, velvet@not.a.valid.domain says...
> I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right
> hand bar) to drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how
> long I push it over for - I'm working against the spring
> force, so can control how many gears to drop fairly easily
> that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller lever
> inside that one that clicks over and each click releases
> the spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.
Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button
on the side and it can also click through multiple points. I
don't know how the Sora "button" STIs behaved but I suspect
that they were single click to go up.
Jon
Jon Senior wrote:
> In article <MZyHc.2032$IU6.19362050@news-
> text.cableinet.net>, velvet@not.a.valid.domain says...
>
>>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right
>>hand bar) to drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how
>>long I push it over for - I'm working against the spring
>>force, so can control how many gears to drop fairly easily
>>that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller lever
>>inside that one that clicks over and each click releases
>>the spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.
>
>
> Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a
> button on the side and it can also click through multiple
> points. I don't know how the Sora "button" STIs behaved
> but I suspect that they were single click to go up.
>
> Jon
Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move
up again you have to click and release repeatedly.
Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made
for downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one
gear might be faster, but to downshift 2 or three it
*definitely* isn't!!!
If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-
release movements of the little lever, which seems to
take just as long, if not longer, as dropping three gears
using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
dropped the three..
Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend
with it all - it could just be my perception is wildly out
of kilter with the actual time taken to shift!
--
Velvet
In article <W6zHc.2040$aZ6.19430500@news-
text.cableinet.net>, velvet@not.a.valid.domain says...
> Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains
> made for downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to
> downshift one gear might be faster, but to downshift 2 or
> three it *definitely* isn't!!!
Think about how "snappy" the change up is on your system
(Assuming it's setup right!). Now compare that to the feel
of the change down (which is usually slightly more rattly.
The RapidRise system just swaps those two. It does also mean
that if your cable or shifter breaks, the default gear is
your lowest, not your highest. After the Gripsh*t on the
bent broke I can say with some confidence that this is a
Good Thing (TM). The experience of suddenly hitting top gear
going up Leith Walk was not one I intend to repeat!
Jon
"Velvet" <velvet@not.a.valid.domain> wrote in message
news:W6zHc.2040$aZ6.19430500@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Jon Senior wrote:
>
> > In article <MZyHc.2032$IU6.19362050@news-
> > text.cableinet.net>, velvet@not.a.valid.domain says...
> >
> >>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the
> >>right hand bar) to drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far
> >>and how long I push it over for - I'm working against
> >>the spring force, so can control how many gears to drop
> >>fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the
> >>smaller lever inside that one that clicks over and each
> >>click releases the spring which pulls and it shifts up
> >>one gear.
> >
> >
> > Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a
> > button on the side and it can also click through
> > multiple points. I don't know how the Sora "button"
> > STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click
> > to go up.
> >
> > Jon
>
> Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to
> move up again you have to click and release repeatedly.
>
> Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains
> made for downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to
> downshift one gear might be faster, but to downshift 2 or
> three it *definitely* isn't!!!
>
> If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-
> release movements of the little lever, which seems to
> take just as long, if not longer, as dropping three gears
> using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
> dropped the three..
>
> Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend
> with it all - it could just be my perception is wildly out
> of kilter with the actual time taken to shift!
>
In my experience it's not so much "speed" as "ease" of
shifting to bigger sprockets that is probably the alleged
advantage of rapid rise. I have to pull a heavy trailer up a
hill near home. Due to a combination of the road layout
before the hill, the length and steepness of the hill and my
level of fitness, I always have to change to bigger
sprockets whilst on this hill. I find it's easier to do this
on the bike with the r r derailleur.
tony R.
tony R wrote:
> "Velvet" <velvet@not.a.valid.domain> wrote in message news:W6zHc.2040$aZ6.19430500@news-
> text.cableinet.net...
>
>>Jon Senior wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <MZyHc.2032$IU6.19362050@news-
>>>text.cableinet.net>, velvet@not.a.valid.domain says...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the
>>>>right hand bar) to drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far
>>>>and how long I push it over for - I'm working against
>>>>the spring force, so can control how many gears to drop
>>>>fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the
>>>>smaller lever inside that one that clicks over and each
>>>>click releases the spring which pulls and it shifts up
>>>>one gear.
>>>
>>>
>>>Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a
>>>button on the side and it can also click through multiple
>>>points. I don't know how the Sora "button" STIs behaved
>>>but I suspect that they were single click to go up.
>>>
>>>Jon
>>
>>Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to
>>move up again you have to click and release repeatedly.
>>
>>Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains
>>made for downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to
>>downshift one gear might be faster, but to downshift 2 or
>>three it *definitely* isn't!!!
>>
>>If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-
>>release movements of the little lever, which seems to
>>take just as long, if not longer, as dropping three gears
>>using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
>>dropped the three..
>>
>>Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend
>>with it all - it could just be my perception is wildly out
>>of kilter with the actual time taken to shift!
>>
>
>
> In my experience it's not so much "speed" as "ease" of
> shifting to bigger sprockets that is probably the alleged
> advantage of rapid rise. I have to pull a heavy trailer up
> a hill near home. Due to a combination of the road layout
> before the hill, the length and steepness of the hill and
> my level of fitness, I always have to change to bigger
> sprockets whilst on this hill. I find it's easier to do
> this on the bike with the r r derailleur.
>
> tony R.
>
>
Tony/Jon,
Ahh, yes, I see.... yes, I'd prefer to suddenly drop to a
low rather than a high by default... hadn't thought about a
sudden cable snap... something else to worry about whilst on
the bike LOL (joking, these days, woohoo!)
I spend a lot of time in the big sprockets too - am
wondering if RR is more useful if on a double chainring than
a triple though perhaps, dunno really.
I'm still working on gear changes while the bike is under
load (ie, up hills etc) - I find it very hard not to have it
be a jerky and obviously stressful for the components (and
my knees!) procedure - slacking off the power through the
pedals instantly leads to a drop in cadence but worse a drop
in speed, which is very hard to recover... I know there must
be a knack to it, maybe one part of the pedal stroke is best
- I'll get it one day!
--
Velvet
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