USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????

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I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post a
link to the old discussion. With that said:

Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if
that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a
huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess it begs the
question: If stock frames are good enough to win the Tour De
France, are they not good enough for average joe?

"J.B." <jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:yUCHc.3030$ri.888@lakeread04...
> I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe
> someone can post
a
> link to the old discussion. With that said:
>
> Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And
> if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it
> blow a huge hole in the custom
frame
> lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are
> good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good
> enough for average joe?

In principle stock frames are going to be better than custom
frames for the price due to the economies of scale. That's
why you can buy high-performance computer for less than a
thousand dollars while making one from scratch would
probably cost more than a billion dollars.

Of course, they don't dig fresh ore to make the frame, but
the principle still applies to a degree.

Shayne Wissler

On 2004-07-09, J.B. <jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote:

> I'm sure this question has been asked in the past -
> maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion.
> With that said:
>
> Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames???
> And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't
> it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess
> it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
> win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for
> average joe?

When I worked for Trek (quite a while ago now, admittedly),
the team frames were custom designed and built in the
prototype workshop. It may be different now.

--

-John (john@os2.dhs.org)

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:05:24 -0400, "J.B." <jackburns@mailinator.com>
wrote:

>I'm sure this question has been asked in the past -
>maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion.
>With that said:
>
>Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And
>if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow
>a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess it begs the
>question: If stock frames are good enough to win the Tour
>De France, are they not good enough for average joe?

"Stock" in this context just means "we make these all the
time." It doesn't mean "this is just the crap we foist off
on the duffers." Given that Trek already produces (for
sale) frames light enough to build a bike that's under the
minimum weight, there's probably little to be gained by
betting on an experimental unit instead of going with a
known design that's in production...and the image thing,
about being able to buy the same bike Lance rides in the
TdF, is a Marketing Tool.

The fact that a frame has made it into production does not
diminish its capabilities...and at this point, the law of
diminishing returns is probably making frame development
into an exercise in frustration.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug. Some gardening required to
reply via email. Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel.

Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't
need custom frames for bike fit.

I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team,
and while the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have been
stock, there were small differerences. Some or all had steel
forks. Most or all had numner plate tabs under the top tube.

JT

On 7/9/04 4:05 PM, in article yUCHc.3030$ri.888@lakeread04, "J.B."
<jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote:

> I'm sure this question has been asked in the past -
> maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion.
> With that said:
>
> Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames???
> And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't
> it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess
> it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
> win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for
> average joe?

The primary point of a custom frame, unless you want
particular aesthetics, is to get a frame that fits you well.
If the average joe fits a stock bike that happens to fit
Lance, or whoever, on USPS, then the stock frame is
certainly good enough for the average joe.

Baird

J.B. <jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote:

> I'm sure this question has been asked in the past -
> maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion.
> With that said:
>
> Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames???
> And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't
> it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess
> it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to
> win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for
> average joe?

They are stock frames because Trek can't make "non-stock"
frames with the lug system they have. So they have managed
to turn a problem into a marketing opportunity...

Boasting that "we force all our riders to ride our
frames even if they don't really fit that well" doesn't
sound as good.

Take a look at Hincapie's stem length some time and tell me
he wouldn't do better with a frame a few cm longer (that
Trek doesn't make).

For another example of making lemonade out of lemons,
look here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/tech/?id=s-
pecialized

Specialized is boasting about making a custom 145mm stem for
Cipo, but why did they have to? Because their new carbon
frame only comes in a few sizes because the molds are so
expensive, and for Mario to get his stem low enough, they
put him on the 58cm frame, which was too short, so they made
him a 145mm custom stem to fix the problem they created.

Lots of pros ride custom frames because they ride their
stems lots lower than normal humans. Petacchi rides a
Pinarello that is something like a 58 TT / 54 ST just so he
can get his stem really low.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2004/news/may21

Since Pinarello makes thier frames out of tin cans, it's
easy to make custom frames, unlike Trek who makes their
fancy frames out of expensive plastic that is really
expensive to make custom.

What I really want to know is, since Colnago and Trek both
use lugs to make their carbon frames, how can Colnago make
custom C40s for their racers, but Trek can't? What is the
difference in their lug construction?

> Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And
> if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it
> blow a huge hole in the custom
frame
> lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are
> good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good
> enough for average joe?

Yes, the team rides completely stock frames... with the
exception that Lance & two others are riding a new version
of the Madone called the SSL, which is built from 50 & 110-
weight carbon, as opposed to the all-110-weight carbon of
the standard Madone or 5900. However, this frame will
become available as a limited-edition sometime in the next
six months.

The way TREK builds carbon frames, the majority of the
expense is front-loaded. The first frame costs a fortune to
build, but all after that cost much less. So you amortize
the cost out by building as many as practical... so unless
TREK were to entirely change how they make frames, building
non-production bikes for the team is out of the question.

The good thing about all this is that it gives us a better
"floor" bike to sell, since it's all about technology rather
than uniqueness.

By the way, if anybody needs proof that TREK doesn't build
custom frames for the team, check out George Hincapie. It
would be difficult for me to believe that what he rides is
an ideal fit! However, it's still interesting to note that
of the two areas one might want to change (lengthening the
top tube and making it taller), at least one doesn't
appear to be an issue, since he rides his stem as low as
it can get. Pretty amazing how much drop (from seat to
bars) on his bike!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:04 -0400, jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse
Thompson) wrote:

>Take a look at Hincapie's stem length some time and tell me
>he wouldn't do better with a frame a few cm longer (that
>Trek doesn't make).
Guys his size should be riding 13 or 14 cms stems, which he
is. Or are you saying he should have longer reach than he
currently does? I'm not so sure about that considering how
flat his back is on the bike.

JT

jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock"
frames??? And if that's true, being completely objective,
doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I
guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough
to win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for
average joe? >><BR><BR>

Well, being good enough to win, doesn't really take into
account the huge van riding along with the riders full of
spares, including framesets.

And they may be a size that fits a rider, and that becomes
the 'stock size', for Trek.

Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com (http://www.vecchios.com/) "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:04 -0400, jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse
Thompson) wrote:

>They are stock frames because Trek can't make "non-stock"
>frames with the lug system they have.

Could be; but it's hard to imagine there's not at least a
little wiggle room. After all, the tubes have to be
assembled onto the lugs.

Also, a smart engineer could consider mixing and matching
tubes and lugs from different frame sizes to achieve custom
geometry. And now that OCLV is available in WSD, there are
even more to choose from.

I don't see why it should be too hard to have made a
slightly shorter top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as
an example.

>So they have managed to turn a problem into a marketing
>opportunity...

That's for sure. Just as I would have done! ;-)

>What I really want to know is, since Colnago and Trek both
>use lugs to make their carbon frames, how can Colnago make
>custom C40s for their racers, but Trek can't?

Good question. Could it be a different problem besides
technical that keeps Trek from offering custom geometry? I'm
thinking logistics, but that seems unlikely given that
Project One has so many different color combinations
available.

>What is the difference in their lug construction?

Looks like Trek is internal and Colnago external, but I
don't know enough to guess what other differences might
come into it.

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:43:08 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

>Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't
>need custom frames for bike fit.

True.

>I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team,
>and while the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have
>been stock, there were small differerences. Some or all had
>steel forks.

That might have been in the days when Trek sold the
"Classic" fork, pretty flexible fork. I wonder if Trek
developed the "Air Rail" in response to some riders using
steel forks?

> Most or all had numner plate tabs under the top tube.

The Treks for sale at my LBS don't have those. ;-)

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:39:58 -0500, dianne_1234
<dianne_1234@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

>
>I don't see why it should be too hard to have made a
>slightly shorter top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as
>an example.
>

What makes you think he requires a short toptube for a man
his height?

JT

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <vecchio51@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040710084925.29866.00001102@mb-m18.aol.com...
> jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock"
> frames??? And if
that's
> true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge
> hole in the custom
frame
> lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are
> good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good
> enough for average joe?
>><BR><BR>
>
>
> Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.
>
I have to disagree with this statement in part. I believe
Trek makes its 58cm bike to "fit" Lance and that anybody
else who rides a 58cm will have to adjust to that
specific frame!

> Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.

Peter: Could you elaborate on that one? I've seen the
production lines; there's nothing whatsoever special about
what Lance rides, aside from the fact that he'll sometimes
be on a production bike that the public doesn't get for a
couple of months. The Madone SL will very shortly be
available (end of this month perhaps), and the Madone SSL a
bit later. The bike he's using for many of the flat sections
is a standard Madone, but being the weight-weenie that he
is, anything with the slightest grade and he goes to the 50
gram lighter "SL" without the flared (aero) seat tube &
downtube. As mentioned, that will shortly be available at
your local dealer.

OK, because Lance's bike has a glued-on number plate hanger,
I suppose that could qualify it as non-stock? That might be
stretching things just a bit.

Frame geometry? Absolutely untouched. Truth? If Lance
demanded a 1cm longer top tube, he'd have it.. and so would
the rest of us. Fortunately, Lance just happens to fit very
nicely on a stock 58cm geometry. No customization
whatsoever. More truth? For some of the mountain bike
riders, they *did* tweak the frames a bit, with slightly-
longer top tubes, a couple of years ago. But not for any of
the bikes Lance rides.

--Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <vecchio51@aol.com> wrote in
message news:20040710084925.29866.00001102@mb-m18.aol.com...
> jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock"
> frames??? And if
that's
> true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge
> hole in the custom
frame
> lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are
> good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good
> enough for average joe?
>><BR><BR>
>
> Well, being good enough to win, doesn't really take into
> account the huge
van
> riding along with the riders full of spares, including
> framesets.
>
> And they may be a size that fits a rider, and that becomes
> the 'stock
size',
> for Trek.
>
> Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com (http://www.vecchios.com/) "Ruote convenzionali
> costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:52:35 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:39:58 -0500, dianne_1234
><dianne_1234@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>I don't see why it should be too hard to have made a
>>slightly shorter top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as an
>>example.
>>
>
>What makes you think he requires a short toptube for a man
>his height?
>
>JT

Nothing; it's just a hypothetical example. Maybe Roberto
really needed a longer top tube, or maybe he didn't and some
other rider did.

The point is, with a little planning and preparation it
shouldn't be too hard to fudge the dimensions a few
millimeters when bonding the frame together. No new lugs,
and maybe just selecting tubes or cutting them a little
longer or shorter.

On 2004-07-10 05:51:09 -0700, vecchio51@aol.com (Qui si parla
Campagnolo ) said:

> JFT-<< Men of anywhere near average height and proportions
> don't need custom frames for bike fit. >><BR><BR>
>
> This is a great point. Maybe 5% of the framesets we sell
> are custom. Bike shops that spout that custom is needed
> for most are mostly Serotta, cuz they make $ on custom
> framesets.

Yeah, well Serottas these days start at like $2200 for a
freaking stock STEEL frame, and what are those Ti Jobbers,
like $4500 these days? No idea how they can justify that
price point, custom or NOT.

Personally I ride custom frames because I have a 33"
inseam and use a
58.5 cm top tube... I don't fit on a stock 58 cm frame
(they usually have 57 cm top tubes), and I don't want
a 14 cm stem. Plus I had a Steel Rex and it felt so
damn nice with a 12 cm stem that I got a Moots with
the same geometry.

I ride 10K miles/year so getting the right top tube height
and head tube length and top tube length required a little
fudging from stock dimensions.

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote
in message news:dPYHc.13933$ob.6522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> > Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.
>
> Peter: Could you elaborate on that one? I've seen the
> production lines; there's nothing whatsoever special about
> what Lance rides, aside from the fact that he'll sometimes
> be on a production bike that the public doesn't get for a
> couple of months. The Madone SL will very shortly be
> available (end of this month perhaps), and the Madone SSL
> a bit later. The bike
he's
> using for many of the flat sections is a standard Madone,
> but being the weight-weenie that he is, anything with the
> slightest grade and he goes to the 50 gram lighter "SL"
> without the flared (aero) seat tube & downtube.
As
> mentioned, that will shortly be available at your
> local dealer.
>
> OK, because Lance's bike has a glued-on number plate
> hanger, I suppose
that
> could qualify it as non-stock? That might be stretching
> things just a
bit.
>
> Frame geometry? Absolutely untouched. Truth? If Lance
> demanded a 1cm longer top tube, he'd have it.. and so
> would the rest of us. Fortunately, Lance just happens to
> fit very nicely on a stock 58cm geometry. No customization
> whatsoever. More truth? For some of the mountain bike
> riders, they *did* tweak the frames a bit, with slightly-
> longer top tubes,
a
> couple of years ago. But not for any of the bikes
> Lance rides.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member
>
Thanks Mike for clearing that up. I've always wondered
about the USPS Trek team bikes. Aside from the TT bike, I
always thought they were all custom made for each rider.
I'm glad to hear they are the same bikes available to the
public. -tom

"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message news:<dPYHc.13933$ob.6522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...

> ... Lance just happens to fit very nicely on a stock 58cm
> geometry. ..>

How does Trek size their frames? Lance's bike looks like a
53/54 cm C-C. How do you end up with a 58 cm even when
measuring up to the seat collar?

> > ... Lance just happens to fit very nicely on a stock
> > 58cm geometry. ..>
>
> How does Trek size their frames? Lance's bike looks like a
> 53/54 cm C-C. How do you end up with a 58 cm even when
> measuring up to the seat collar?

Been there, seen it, he rides a real live 58cm. If you
measured it center to center, you'd get something like a
54.5cm sizing. It may look smaller than that since there's
so little gap at the front end, due to the larger tubing
diameters.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Richard Chan" <a0199755@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:81ba5168.0407120722.5673cffc@posting.google.com...
> "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles"
> <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote
in message
news:<dPYHc.13933$ob.6522@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
>
> > ... Lance just happens to fit very nicely on a stock
> > 58cm geometry. ..>
>
> How does Trek size their frames? Lance's bike looks like a
> 53/54 cm C-C. How do you end up with a 58 cm even when
> measuring up to the seat collar?