Do you think lance is doping? yes or no

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ps Crud muncher cuchullian or whatever

and yes

Do you really believe Pro's at the very top level, the very best of the best, the one or two that make it out of each region of a nation, really cannot be bothered training hard?

I'm not trying to defend LA as a non-doper but the fact that he trains harder than some other top pros is not only possible, it's quite obvious. Stop by the bakery in Merdingen, Germany where you can talk to Jan Ullrich about it as he stuffs his face with buns, while at the same time in the USA, LA is out on an early season training ride. I believe that if Ullrich trained as hard as Armstrong, there wouldn't be a six time tour winner today. Or if there was, it might very well be Ullrich instead of Armstrong. The argument that all of the top pros train just as hard as Armstrong simply doesn't wash.

Since Lance won the prologue at the 1999 tour, everyone (especially the Europeans) have been trying to figure out "how?" Given that cycling is very much a European sport, I understand. If a French team won the Superbowl or the NBA finals 6 years in a row, you can bet for sure that there would be a lot of unhappy campers in the good ole US of A.

That said, you'll never convince me that Lance is doping. Simple facts: (1) He has been tested, snooped, followed, etc, etc, far more than any human ever. Except for scuttlebutt, there has been nothing to indicate doping. (2) Since 1999, or at least 2001, he has surrounded himself with the best team. Great climbers (Rubierra, Heras, Acevedo, etc.) so he can take it relatively easy up to the point where he really needs to let it all hang out. On the flats, the blue train surrounds him and keeps him out of trouble. They always (at least the last few years) finish well in the team time trial so he does not have extra time to make up. (3) When other people are enjoying themselves, Lance is working and training. They all know it, and they all hate that the guy seems to have an almost inhuman ability to stay focused and suffer. (I don't blame them...my motivation comes and goes too.) (4) With the exception of 2003 (where this mistake almost cost him the tour), Lance does not appear to RACE really hard at any events within about 30 to 45 days of the tour, or even longer. He clearly knows how to have his body peak at exactly the right time. (5) Lance's team is 100% dedicated to him at all times. You never see anyone go ahead unless it is part of the plan, or something Lance allows because he can do so safely. Ulrich had to deal with team politics in 1997 and 1998, and again in 2004, where the leadership of his team was in question. In 2003, no one gave him any credit when he was on Bianchi, but in fairness it seems like he had a team that was the most dedicated to him that he had ever enjoyed. This, plus better fitness and motivation, likely led to one of his best results. (6) Winning the tour is clearly a very difficult concoction: you have to be able to climb, AND time trial, skills that are rather diverse. Only a very few riders are good at both of these skills (and at times sprinting (which can come in quite handy as well). As odd as it is, Lance's cancer (and the associated weight loss) seems to have allowed him to become a much better climber in a way no one else likely can, or would want to. (7) Lance's team is ABLE, financially, to be able to focus ONLY on the tour. Any other stage or event wins appear to be simple icing on the cake. For a lot of riders, they need to ride well all season, just to eat and maintain team positions (jobs). Having the luxury to focus on one race only, without worrying about the bills, and to be supported with the best team and equipment is a TREMENDOUS asset both psychologically, as well as physically. (8) Give credit to more than a little luck in terms of crashes, injuries/illness, flats/mechanicals, etc. You make your own luck to a great extent, but he has certainly had his share.

If Lance was winning the Tour, and the Giro, and the Olympics, etc., I think you would have a better argument. But, to me it is simply a matter of strong financing, tremendous self discipline and self control, and a willingness to sacrifice whatever is necessary (including wins at other prestigous events such as the Giro) to win the tour. Barring injury or illness, I have no doubt that he'll win #7. Then, I hope that he choses not to race the tour again. It is better for any sport not to have any rider/team, no matter who they are, win too many times.

One other thing I would like the Europeans to think about; being gracious. Cycling is not an American sport. Simply put, the average American does not have the patience for a 3 week bike race. In a world of touchdowns and slam dunks, that kind of event simply does not compute. As a recreational cyclist who has spent over 25 years on American roads, I think that Lance has been good for America for a number of reasons, including hopefully making the average Joe a little more polite to a cyclist he sees riding down the road. Whereas cycling appears to be rather well accepted in Europe as part of transportation and culture, in the states riders are treated like freaks (in spandex) or at least horrific inconveniences to Mr. Joe driving in his oversized gas sucking SUV (while talking on the friggin cell phone no less).

There is at least some chance that Lance has caused people to take up cycling who otherwise would not have, or if they haven't, to at least show riders they see a little courtesy. I truly believe if this is true that we all (including mother earth) are a little bit better off for it. While Lance's reign is coming to a close, consider that, and perhaps it will make it easier to stomach.

Where is the "I don't give a f*ck"" button?

Where is the "I don't give a f*ck"" button?


Crap! Why did't I think to type that? Good One!

Where is the "I don't give a f*ck"" button?


classic!! he he!

Where is the "I don't give a f*ck"" button?
Last I checked it was nowhere near the Post a Reply button. ;)

Last I checked it was nowhere near the Post a Reply button. ;)

touché, just sick and tired of all the doping conjecture and speculation and can't believe I am the only one? Until someone is found guilty or caught by a reputable test and or governing body why is there a discussion? :confused:

touché, just sick and tired of all the doping conjecture and speculation and can't believe I am the only one?

FWIW: You are definitely not the only one. However, there are some here that seem to never tire of beating the dead and now decaying horse.

FWIW: You are definitely not the only one. However, there are some here that seem to never tire of beating the dead and now decaying horse.


I heard about that race horse. Died from doping, I hear. Jockeys should be shot. :D

There's a whole world of cycling out there - apart from Lance Armstrong and
apart from the question of doping.

I think people will always be divided on this question and I think we just have to get on with it.

But the sport is bigger than LA or Jan Ullrich for that matter.
Look at Julich's performances recently.
There is barely any comment about it on this entire forum.
It was the same last year when Rebellin did the hat-trick.

Cycling isn't just the TDF.

So come on folks, let's broaden the discussion.

We have perhaps the toughest one day classic this week.
It's called the Tour of Flanders.
Plenty of good cyclists - plenty of contenders.

There's a whole world of cycling out there - apart from Lance Armstrong and
apart from the question of doping.

I think people will always be divided on this question and I think we just have to get on with it.

But the sport is bigger than LA or Jan Ullrich for that matter.
Look at Julich's performances recently.
There is barely any comment about it on this entire forum.
It was the same last year when Rebellin did the hat-trick.

Cycling isn't just the TDF.

So come on folks, let's broaden the discussion.

We have perhaps the toughest one day classic this week.
It's called the Tour of Flanders.
Plenty of good cyclists - plenty of contenders.

All good points Limerickman. I agree. Julich is off to a remarkable start this year! We actually have some television coverage here in the USA of the Tour of Flanders thanks to OLN's "Cyclism Sunday" ( :rolleyes: ). I'm looking forward to watching on Sunday.

No flame wars please, just want to get an idea of people view on this. Thanks, Michael
All this doping stuff may have happened before Lance got cancer and that rumor were based on former riders training under Chris Carmichael and those riders claimed to know that Lance was doing it as well. Supposely after the cancer Chris could no longer in good conscious (and moral issues) dope his riders, and since then has concentrated on other technology such as the HRM and watts training methods which Chris has perfected.

Also Lance's doctors have said that Lance is a rare person that was born with cardio capabilities that represent only about 1% of the population; whether that's true or not Lance trains hard, and the combination of training and his cardio capabilities have led him to excel...at least in one race-the TDF!

Now lets start another flame war...Lance is the greatest TDF rider ever BUT not the greatest rider ever, that title would have to fall onto Eddy Merckx because he won much greater variety of races that Lance has never won.

There's a whole world of cycling out there - apart from Lance Armstrong and
apart from the question of doping.

But the sport is bigger than LA or Jan Ullrich for that matter.
Look at Julich's performances recently.
There is barely any comment about it on this entire forum.
It was the same last year when Rebellin did the hat-trick.

So come on folks, let's broaden the discussion.

We have perhaps the toughest one day classic this week.
It's called the Tour of Flanders.
Plenty of good cyclists - plenty of contenders.

Exactly! Well said. Now lets talk about bike racing in the bike racing forum... :D

touché, just sick and tired of all the doping conjecture and speculation and can't believe I am the only one? Until someone is found guilty or caught by a reputable test and or governing body why is there a discussion? :confused:
Not at all, wilmar13. All in fun I assure you. :)
And I also assure you, that I, like you, get rather sick and tired of some of this. Opinions are fine, presentation of evidence/counter-evidence is fine but some don't know the difference between suspecting he's clean and knowing he's clean. Others have no idea that there is a difference between thinking he's doping and knowing he is.

Despite many, perhaps the majority of these posts, the obvious thing, (should be obvious, anyway), is that no one here, no matter what they say, really knows for sure one way or the other.

what an outrageous suggestion.... ooh, I think the acid is starting to kick in:eek:

Also Lance's doctors have said that Lance is a rare person that was born with cardio capabilities that represent only about 1% of the population; whether that's true or not Lance trains hard, and the combination of training and his cardio capabilities have led him to excel...at least in one race-the TDF!



Mmmmm ...... but less than 1% of the population are professional elite bike riders. Or are they all just lazy and inept trainers except for LA?

Mmmmm ...... but less than 1% of the population are professional elite bike riders. Or are they all just lazy and inept trainers except for LA?

Not sure if I beleive that LA is in the top 1% but as an aside; cycling isn't the only endurance sport that favors athletes with superior cardio capabilities so that top 1% (whomever they are) may not entirely end-up in pro cycling.

That said, no one is suggesting that all of the other top cyclists are "lazy and inept trainers". But it is a fact that those with superior genes (i.e. freakish cardio/lung capacity) will rise to the top if they work as hard or harder than the others. Migeul Indurain is a fine example of this.

The short answer is yes. Yes, Lance is probably taking the same stuff that EVERYBODY else is taking. To chastise him for this is really unfair. He is epo'n just as much as the rest of the field. His performance, however, is not evidence of doping. It is just good ol' whoop ass plain and simple(the playing field is level). The real thing we must realize is that Lance has had cancer. This means that by taking EPO he is stimulating his mast cells deep inside his bone marrow. These cells have shown cancerous tendencies in his past and could very easliy rear their ugly heads again. Put simple, Lance is taking the biggest risk of ALL of his competitors. He is gambling with his life. Besides, if the European testing officilas really wanted to crack down on EPO usage they would test pre and post race. They don't do this because by the end of the Tour we'd be left with a couple a' kids doin' wheelies on banana seats. ....not that I have anything against wheelies or banana seats.

If others that are not even close to him(as far as performance goes) are getting caught, then YES, he is on something that is not illegal, has not been detected yet, or has a great masking agent.

My 2 cents worth.