Do you think lance is doping? yes or no

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3) (To your other response) Lance was the youngest world champion ever, he was a successfull pro triathlete at 16, had some of the highest vo2 max scores recorded, he was also winning races early and his engine was also recodinzed early on. Other then all of that, sure the comparison between a sprinter becoming a GT winner and a KOM winner and a classics guy who could climb becoming a GT winner is a stretch.:rolleyes:

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World championships don't really mean anything. Well done to him winning it, but back then that didn't mean at all that he was the best cyclist of that season.

I will ask you one question in response to this:

Do you truly think the East German system and more importantly the doctors and coaches just suddenyl stopped doping when Germany was reunified in October of 1990?

You wildly speculate that JU (born December 1973) could be part of the East German doping system post 1 July 1990 (date of unification) and therefore could have doped as the explanation to his natural prowess first observed when he was 9 years old.

Of course, the system went belly up under unification because there was no funding and, as Limerickman correctly pointed out, the government funded source of supply likewise collapsed.

JU was always an exceptional world class act. LA became exceptional only from 1998. Trying to discredit JU is not going to sanitise the doubts about LA. Soigneur, personal assistant and team mate have all given eye witness accounts of LA's association with drugs. LA is being constantly challenged on whether his performances are drug related in a drug ridden sport.

I have never heard a beep of a suspicion about JU.

I have never heard a beep of a suspicion about JU.

yep, precisely because there is nothing to be suspicious about. Apart from that one little piss-up at the nightclub lol.

Winning the world championships in Oslo is pretty outstanding, Beating Indurain in the process - not bad at all. People who say Lance's palmares before 1998 are not good, haven't really looked at them. He was a rising star. And his excellence first became apparent in his early teens as a swimmer and triathlete.

A fired soigneur, a personal assistant who is suing him on absurd grounds, and a has been teammate - all of whom have ulterior motives to run Lance down.

I suppose it's a question of predisposition. The allegations of doping against Jan, largely guilt by association and completely unproven or backed up with a shred of proof, are also pretty much the same allegations made against Lance, with a similar level of actual proof.

Personally, I respect the current authorities and current doping controls. They nailed Pantani and Hamilton, and they'd nail Lance if he were doping. No one is good enough to dope for six years and get away with it. Think I'll put on the 03 TDF, and watch Jan and Lance duke it out up Luz Ardiden. An epic cycling battle.


You wildly speculate that JU (born December 1973) could be part of the East German doping system post 1 July 1990 (date of unification) and therefore could have doped as the explanation to his natural prowess first observed when he was 9 years old.

Of course, the system went belly up under unification because there was no funding and, as Limerickman correctly pointed out, the government funded source of supply likewise collapsed.

JU was always an exceptional world class act. LA became exceptional only from 1998. Trying to discredit JU is not going to sanitise the doubts about LA. Soigneur, personal assistant and team mate have all given eye witness accounts of LA's association with drugs. LA is being constantly challenged on whether his performances are drug related in a drug ridden sport.

I have never heard a beep of a suspicion about JU.

1)
3) (To your other response) Lance was the youngest world champion ever, he was a successfull pro triathlete at 16, had some of the highest vo2 max scores recorded, he was also winning races early and his engine was also recodinzed early on. Other then all of that, sure the comparison between a sprinter becoming a GT winner and a KOM winner and a classics guy who could climb becoming a GT winner is a stretch.:rolleyes:

LA, in his book, stated "When I was 16, I was invited to undergo testing at a place in Dallas called the Cooper Clinic, a prestigious research lab and birthplace of the aerobic exercise revolution. A doctor there measured my VO2 max, which is a gauge of how much oxygen you can take in and use, and he says that my numbers are still the highest they've ever come across."

House, are you aware of the Cooper Clinic? It is not an elite athlete testing laboratory but a wellness and fat reducing facility with live in facilities for fare paying "patients." It caters for all ages and fitness levels. It is fundamentally a fat farm. LA would not have had much competition.

He also states in his book "Basically, I can endure more physical stress than most people can, and I don't get as tired while I'm doing it. So I figure maybe that helped me live. I was lucky--I was born with an above-average capacity for breathing. But even so, I was in a desperate, sick fog much of the time."

"can endure more physical stress than most people" and "above average capacity for breathing" could apply to any athlete, elite or not. These LA statements in his book have been the basis of the myths that are currently being generated.

You wildly speculate that JU (born December 1973) could be part of the East German doping system post 1 July 1990 (date of unification) and therefore could have doped as the explanation to his natural prowess first observed when he was 9 years old.

Of course, the system went belly up under unification because there was no funding and, as Limerickman correctly pointed out, the government funded source of supply likewise collapsed.

JU was always an exceptional world class act. LA became exceptional only from 1998. Trying to discredit JU is not going to sanitise the doubts about LA. Soigneur, personal assistant and team mate have all given eye witness accounts of LA's association with drugs. LA is being constantly challenged on whether his performances are drug related in a drug ridden sport.

I have never heard a beep of a suspicion about JU.
So Lance was not a "world class act" (I assume you meant athlete, not just a person) before 1998? World Championships, world class triathlete, classic winner, Fleche Wallon winner, etc.

I f the system went "beely up under unification" then why do we keep hearing about doctors from that time working around the world with athletes who dope? As I said before there is no way the whole system and every doctor just shut down 10 months after reunification (June of 1991), it's ludicris to think so. Do you think successfull athletes would just say OK, I won't dope since we reunified? We may disgree on what constitutes proof but you can't be dumb enough to think everything just stopped suddenly. I never tried to discredit Jan,I merely made a point about the logic being used by you and your bretheren. As a matter of fact in that post I even said I was not saying he did dope or had doped, but you guys like to ignore what doesn't work for you. That's now three of you who have been caught red handed editing quotes to make them sound the way you want them to. Jan was in a system that was based on doping from (we'll use the age you used) nine until reunification (October 3, 1990...look it up) 17, of course if we use Limericks ten months that makes him 18, old enough to go into the doping plan as it is documented that drugs were given to athletes as young as 11. I never said Jan did dope, merely that if you look at the two backgrounds Jan seems more likely...but then if you were actually reading what is written not what you want me to be saying you would know that.

So Lance was not a "world class act" (I assume you meant athlete, not just a person) before 1998? World Championships, world class triathlete, classic winner, Fleche Wallon winner, etc.

I f the system went "beely up under unification" then why do we keep hearing about doctors from that time working around the world with athletes who dope? As I said before there is no way the whole system and every doctor just shut down 10 months after reunification (June of 1991), it's ludicris to think so. Do you think successfull athletes would just say OK, I won't dope since we reunified? We may disgree on what constitutes proof but you can't be dumb enough to think everything just stopped suddenly. I never tried to discredit Jan,I merely made a point about the logic being used by you and your bretheren. As a matter of fact in that post I even said I was not saying he did dope or had doped, but you guys like to ignore what doesn't work for you. That's now three of you who have been caught red handed editing quotes to make them sound the way you want them to. Jan was in a system that was based on doping from (we'll use the age you used) nine until reunification (October 3, 1990...look it up) 17, of course if we use Limericks ten months that makes him 18, old enough to go into the doping plan as it is documented that drugs were given to athletes as young as 11. I never said Jan did dope, merely that if you look at the two backgrounds Jan seems more likely...but then if you were actually reading what is written not what you want me to be saying you would know that.

With the exception of possibly swimming and gymnastics, the East Germans had a development plan for emerging young athletes which did not include doping. Doping was prevalent in preparing their athletes for international competition after their development years. Swimmers and gymnasts tend to mature early for their sports.

Show us your reference to be the source of your statement "as it is documented that drugs were given to athletes as young as 11" and included cyclists.

And if it is a fact that ex East German doctors are involved in doping around the world (but not in the former East Germany), is not that indicative there was no market for their expertise in the unified Germany through lack of funding? You certainly shot your argument in the foot here.

1) Yet you left our parts of my quote which show that it was not an accusation. Why? Because it didn't fit what you wanted me to be saying? As a matter of fact I even say that I wasn't saying he is doping or did dope, but you conveniently left that out. Why? Because it is not what you want me to be saying.


Let's be 100% clear here : you made an accusation and now you're trying to back pedal from making that accusation.

Personally, I don't know if Ullrich dopes or not.
What I do know is that there are no accusations of cheating against JU.
Nor is there any circumstantial evidence implicating JU and doping.
And given, as you contended earlier that JU (and Zabel and Kloden) were
brought up in a state that had a doping policy and a system which kept meticulous records of how took what/when, if JU did dope his name and records would have been uncovered.

Unfortunately, yer hero's yarn about being clean is being unpicked as we speak
But I'll discuss this when dissecting the rest of yer diatribe below.



1)
2) Jan hasn't won six Tours so there isn't the same gain in betraying him (you know the large amount of money, endorsement for his shop and autographed Tour jersey that was demanded). Jan also doean't come from as litigious a society as Lance



Again you're applying the standards that apply in yer country to people who don't live in your country.
Large sums of money. Tell me what large sum of money is Emma O'Reilly getting for her testimony against Lance Armstrong ? Ditto Betsy Andreu. Ditto Greg LeMond. Ditto Stefan Swart.

Litigious society - only applies to those who live in a litigious society.
There are no actionable claims against LA in yer litigious society.
So the old "they're in it for the money" doesn't apply.




3) (To your other response) Lance was the youngest world champion ever, he was a successfull pro triathlete at 16, had some of the highest vo2 max scores recorded, he was also winning races early and his engine was also recodinzed early on. Other then all of that, sure the comparison between a sprinter becoming a GT winner and a KOM winner and a classics guy who could climb becoming a GT winner is a stretch.:rolleyes:


Yes, he won the one day world title race in Oslo.
Does this make him a grand tour champion ?
How come he only managed to finish one TDF in 4 starts ?
Laurent Jalabert in the same time period not only finished a TDF, he won a classement jersey and won numerous one day races in the first four years of his career - so why do you attempt to compare a rider who was a success with someone who clearly struggled as a stage race rider ?

The VOmax score that you attribute to LA - how come this VOmax didn't propel him to success between 1992-1996 ?
How come this VOmax allowed him to finish 1hr 30 minutes behind the 1995
TDF champion ?

Indeed, it is a stretch when you read the explanations for his "improvement".
A stretch in to fiction, I say.




1) Yet you left our parts of my quote which show that it was not an accusation. Why? Because it didn't fit what you wanted me to be saying? As a matter of fact I even say that I wasn't saying he is doping or did dope, but you conveniently left that out. Why? Because it is not what you want me to be saying.

2) Jan hasn't won six Tours so there isn't the same gain in betraying him (you know the large amount of money, endorsement for his shop and autographed Tour jersey that was demanded). Jan also doean't come from as litigious a society as Lance


[QUOTE=House]
Now if you are going to keep editing quotes to make them say what you want to hear just to argue then i suggest you go to another website, if you would like to discuss what has actually been written I will be around.

Your words are your words.
If you don't like your words being quoted back to you - then that is not my problem.

So Lance was not a "world class act" (I assume you meant athlete, not just a person) before 1998? World Championships, world class triathlete, classic winner, Fleche Wallon winner, etc.

I f the system went "beely up under unification" then why do we keep hearing about doctors from that time working around the world with athletes who dope? As I said before there is no way the whole system and every doctor just shut down 10 months after reunification (June of 1991), it's ludicris to think so. Do you think successfull athletes would just say OK, I won't dope since we reunified? We may disgree on what constitutes proof but you can't be dumb enough to think everything just stopped suddenly. I never tried to discredit Jan,I merely made a point about the logic being used by you and your bretheren. As a matter of fact in that post I even said I was not saying he did dope or had doped, but you guys like to ignore what doesn't work for you. That's now three of you who have been caught red handed editing quotes to make them sound the way you want them to. Jan was in a system that was based on doping from (we'll use the age you used) nine until reunification (October 3, 1990...look it up) 17, of course if we use Limericks ten months that makes him 18, old enough to go into the doping plan as it is documented that drugs were given to athletes as young as 11. I never said Jan did dope, merely that if you look at the two backgrounds Jan seems more likely...but then if you were actually reading what is written not what you want me to be saying you would know that.


.........and a system that kept records.
No record of any kind has been brought forward to show that Jan Ullrich, Erik Zabel or Andreas Kloden were ever given drugs.
And this in a system that had written records of athletes names/doctors names/dopage amounts/training regimes documented in Leipzig East Germany.
This in a system where Stasi files show that funding, sourcing and distribution of PED.
Not one shred of paper has been brought forward with Jan Ullrich's name on it.
Kinda strange, eh ?

If you're contention is correct that JU doped - how come out of all the
Olympic/World/European champions listed on these files, does JU and EZ and AK manage to avoid detection ?

Limerick- look up Manfred Ewald and you will find proof of the 11 year olds being doped, my cpaste feature is acting weird so I can't paste a link or just type in "east german doping young" on google.

Show me where I made an accusation, I reposted my original post at at 3:55 (about 15 posts ago) quote it exactly and show me where the accusation is. Don't leave any part out like "more likely," "It would make more sense...","I'm not saying he is or did" like you did last time. Show me the accusation. I'm guessing you won't even try since it's very obvious there is no accusation. You said "your words are your words" yes they are but when you edit them they have other meaning

Why is Emma making accusations? Didn't she get fired? No motive there. Every person who has made claims against Lance has a motive, like being fired (most of them) but don't let that stop you from believing they a rightious seekers of truth. But why were they fired? If they knew Lance was doping wouldn't he try to placate them? Oops sorry, using common sense again and their is no room for that here!:rolleyes:

Waiting patiently for your next squirm.

ahhh, Flyer following his tenuous at best proof, lying, telling half-truths, repeating the same things over and over, being a coward. Enjoying his love of doping and the delight he gets out of it.

I made a statement about the East German system, which was very well known, in response to the "proof" you and your pro-doping buddies provide about Lance. What I said is just as believable, more so to people with any knowledge of sports systems of communist nations. I did not say Jan was doping, but don't let that stop you. The problems in the US system are just coming out and we are still sifting through what is true and what is untrue, unlike the East German system where we know what was done. Unfortunately some people just can't open their minds to get past their irrational desire for one person to get busted, so they read what they want to read, despite what's actually written.
I guess that I sorta don't want to say too much more about Lance and doping. I am quite certain that he has been tested over and over and over and over, and if he IS taking "speed drugs," there sure isn't a test for whatever it is he is taking! Wonder what it could be? I was unaware that Lance was a talented chemist with a lab in his basement (do they even HAVE basements in Texas?) doing tests for the next Big Deal Speed Drug which he is planning to use in this TdeF. I was rather thinking that he wasn't even all that good in school! Anyone know? Wonder where he got his PhD in chemistry/biology? Anyone know? I sure don't!

See you guys later -

RuthA

Limerick- look up Manfred Ewald and you will find proof of the 11 year olds being doped, my cpaste feature is acting weird so I can't paste a link or just type in "east german doping young" on google.


I aware of the evidence against Max Ewald.
And the publication of Stasi files and publication of state controlled drug firm
detailing supplies of PED.

And the names of athletes/doctors/doping amounts given to Olympic/World/European champion athletes.

Funny how with all this doping going on that Jan Ullrich's name has never
been found on any shred of paper from East germany.

You'd think that if there was a doping program that their top cyclist's name would be on it - wouldn't YOU ?


Why is Emma making accusations? Didn't she get fired? No motive there. Every person who has made claims against Lance has a motive, like being fired (most of them) but don't let that stop you from believing they a rightious seekers of truth. But why were they fired? If they knew Lance was doping wouldn't he try to placate them? Oops sorry, using common sense again and their is no room for that here!:



Common sense.
Common sense would tell you that if a person living in a state where elite athletes are doped and where meticulous records were kept, has never been shown to have doped, ought not to be subject to lies posted by a coward like you.

Do you know Emma O'Reilly ?
I do. I know her and her family very well.

You say Emma has a grudge against LA because she was fired ?
How do you know this ?

Emma hasn't got a grudge against LA. Truth be known, she's now happy working for a good reliable employer who doesn't attempt to intimidate her
in the hope that she won't talk about her time at USPS.

Emmas doing fine - working away and getting on with her life.

Tell me, do you know right from wrong ?
Or do you find yourself constantly having to back pedal when you make false
allegations.

I aware of the evidence against Max Ewald.
And the publication of Stasi files and publication of state controlled drug firm
detailing supplies of PED.

And the names of athletes/doctors/doping amounts given to Olympic/World/European champion athletes.

Funny how with all this doping going on that Jan Ullrich's name has never
been found on any shred of paper from East germany.

You'd think that if there was a doping program that their top cyclist's name would be on it - wouldn't YOU ?
-You asked for the info about the doping starting at 11 and I gave it to you and strangely no mention of it in this post (could it be because it was true?)
-You said i made accusations, I said to quote my whole post without leaving any parts out and you didn't do it but you do seem to have backed down. (could it be because you know that actual post is obviously not an accusation?)




Common sense.
Common sense would tell you that if a person living in a state where elite athletes are doped and where meticulous records were kept, has never been shown to have doped, ought not to be subject to lies posted by a coward like you.
Common sense also tells you that editing a post in the same thread to make it look like it says what you want it to say merely makes you look like the fool that you are.

Do you know Emma O'Reilly ?
I do. I know her and her family very well.

You say Emma has a grudge against LA because she was fired ?
How do you know this ?

Emma hasn't got a grudge against LA. Truth be known, she's now happy working for a good reliable employer who doesn't attempt to intimidate her
in the hope that she won't talk about her time at USPS.

Emmas doing fine - working away and getting on with her life.
Of course you know her, strange in all the discussions you have never mentioned that. Convenient isn't it? She got fired, she has a motive. You can't deny that, unless you are a fool.

Tell me, do you know right from wrong ?
Or do you find yourself constantly having to back pedal when you make false
allegations.
There you go doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Where's the proof? I challenged you on this accusation and you have provided nothing. You are obviously the king of backpedaling. Step and post the entire quote, not leaving anything out this time and try to say it's an accusation. If you won't do that then you can play with yourself because I will have no need to come back and make you look like a fool again. Step up or shut up, simple enough, even for a good friend of Emma. LOL

-You asked for the info about the doping starting at 11 and I gave it to you and strangely no mention of it in this post (could it be because it was true?)
-You said i made accusations, I said to quote my whole post without leaving any parts out and you didn't do it but you do seem to have backed down. (could it be because you know that actual post is obviously not an accusation?)


This issue of whether there was state-run doping program in East Germany is not at issue.

What is at issue is your contention that JU doped because he happened to be an elite athlete in the same state that operated a doping program.

I put it to you that given the release of athlete names/doctors names/doping dosages, it is curious that JU's name has never appeared on any piece of paper emanating from East Germany.
You would think that given there was all this doping going on how he somehow evaded the state authorities ?
It's a curious juxtaposition to your hero's travails. A lot of people are prepared
to talk about LA's doping.

While in respect of Jan - there's nothing. No rumour, no ex-employees, no
doctors charged with cheating.
make you wonder, eh ?



Common sense also tells you that editing a post in the same thread to make it look like it says what you want it to say merely makes you look like the fool that you are.



You posted something about common sense earlier.
I ask you to apply common sense and consider how JU's name has never been found on any Stasi file or any file peratining to doping.
Could it be that he did not dope ?
Could it be that your earlier asertion about his doping are a lie ?



Of course you know her, strange in all the discussions you have never mentioned that. Convenient isn't it? She got fired, she has a motive. You can't deny that, unless you are a fool.


I know her brother very well - I consider him a close friend.
He was a guest at my wedding.
I know Emma well, not as well as her brother but well enough to have a great chat with her some weeks back at a family celebration.

And as I told you, I don't think she has any grudge against LA.
She is interested in the truth like the rest of the contributors to Dave Walsh's book.

House, I wouldn't believe it...Emma is my cousin and she is known as the family liar...

You're back with us, Zapper ?

Does Ullrich look doped in this picture? http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/27/0,1886,2380539,00.jpg no, so shut up House! :D

Does Ullrich look doped in this picture? http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/27/0,1886,2380539,00.jpg no, so shut up House! :D

Hahaha! Without question doped to the gills! Is he third from the left? Or is he not even actually in the picture?

did you all see his expression when he hit the ground after getting caught up in that food bag in 03, then again when the frame broke, this man is not doped but he sure as hell has been determined in the past,think this years going to be a bit different though,no-one to eclipse which he always had in the past

Damn you 2 have some love for each other;) Just a tip: you 2 can also pm each other and keep youre little fight behind closed doors (haha don't think flyer likes that he doesn't like things settled behind closed doors)! Just a thought.....btw Flyer have you allready answered my guestion: what's youre opinion on the giro? Like the fight between Cunego and Simoni and Basso kicking ass in TT?

Why don't you rebuild your house? What lies? You are the one with all the lying denials.


You ranted about Eddie Merckx and his doping addictions and admission. Then went away embarrssed, only to reappear with your silly posts.

Oh, and my balls are just fine.

You are in no position to address anyone as a coward.

Seek medical help.