Do you think lance is doping? yes or no

Since 2001, over 90,000 cyclist's have joined Cycling Forums to discuss topics from general cycling to equipment, training, racing and travel or vacation destinations (especially in europe during the tour de france). We also feature an great deals in our online store, 100's of articles, classifieds and product reviews.

Has'nt lance given some of his own money to eradicate doping?
He is one of the most tested riders and no test has shown positive.
Bring on number 7.

Hard way to get started here,posting in the most highly and heated debate on this forum,I mean.
My advise, just back out slowly and Flyer may let you off with a warning this time, otherwise you will be neck deep in an un-winable debate.
Next to the hardcore unyielding camps in this issue the Energizer Bunny is F**king lazy slob and a quitter.
They have me half believing that I am doping.

Hard way to get started here,posting in the most highly and heated debate on this forum,I mean.
My advise, just back out slowly and Flyer may let you off with a warning this time, otherwise you will be neck deep in an un-winable debate.
Next to the hardcore unyielding camps in this issue the Energizer Bunny is F**king lazy slob and a quitter.
They have me half believing that I am doping.
Now THAT is funny. LOL. Hard to have a debate if only one side listens to reason isn't it? lol

Funny indeed......too bad Flyer doesn't live in our world.....he doesn't see that his posts just have a very negative effect on this forum and that it gets to the point that everyone thinks and finally says: SHUT UP! Aaah well need to take my meds again.LOL!



Now THAT is funny. LOL. Hard to have a debate if only one side listens to reason isn't it? lol

If ignoring the words of Eddie Merckx, Jacques Anquetil, Fausto Coppi and Francesco Moser could possibly be considered 'reasonable, then sure---you're on safe ground, subject to frequent earthquakes. But you do so at your own peril.

On the other hand if the legends of our sport personally used performance drugs---and many World Champions from today have admitted as much, then perhaps the 'doping apologist minimization position' is irrationale and ought to be challenged vigorously for what it is; commercial prapaganda or naivete.

btw: Former World Champ Eprex abusers David Millar and Oscar Camezind say hello.
Now wait a minute, let's be very clear about something.

I don't particular take offense at your position on doping, that's your own business.

I would ask that you not misquote or misconstrue things I've said however. I never said anything about "ignoring" anyone. I merely stated that they have as much reason to be lying as anyone else....period.

What I find, in my opinion, to be illogical, irresponsible, and non-sensical is your insistence that EVERYONE dopes....period.

To use your words, "Assume 100% and you'll always be right". Well hell man, why even get up in the mornings? I don't ASSUME anything, just like I'm not going to fall for YOUR assumptions. I don't think any rational human being is ever going to believe that 100% are dopers, it's just illogical.

John

Lance apparently gave money to the 'UCI' of all places.

That has the appearance of a bribe more than doping compliance.

Why not invite Richard Pound to a Texas BBQ and hand him a tax-dedcutible check?

And Lance has NEVER been tested for the most powerful of drugs. Never.

You can't test for drugs that do not yet 'technically exist' aka: research juice nor has he been tested for many older hormones/ and or masked drugs.

testosterone/clomid/hCG mixed withing 6:1

insulin/glucose/B-12

human Growth Hormones

Equine Growth Hormones

Interlukins 3-65

Designer Nandrolone (aka THG)

Viagra

Stimulant flushed with diuretiucs

Mant EPO protocols and HBOC transfusions


And because no leader or former champion been disqualified from the Tour de France since 1978, he appears to enjoy a free business doping exemption pass in that event.

That sounds more like: "the least tested man in sports today' Even Barry Bonds is frightened.


Actually, I wonder where you get your information? I use insulin (it tends to keep me alive) and I really wonder what you actually KNOW about insulin. If Lance is using insulin as a "cheater" drug, I suggest that it would have killed him a long time ago. Perhaps you might want to ask and endocrinologist about this sort of thing. I know nothing about B12 except that I take it, too, and it has not speeded me up all THAT much! (If at all!)

I DO, however, believe that Lance just trains more and has a better coach than many other people. Oh, yeah, his heart AND his lungs are a little larger than the average racer's, and that is merely an accident of birth. Go figure - guess he picked the correct job for himself!

Let's be doubly clear.

Your opinion is yours to own. My opinion is based upon personal insights gained over 20 years. I have raced with dopers, trained with dopers and befriended retired pro riders (dopers). I have also raced with guys who refused to dope. They went to Europe and were consulled out of the sport in one short season. (a dozen super fast guys). To those naive observers these guys failed. But I think they succeeded. They refused to medicate. They could have made it if they capitualated. They were talented winners and plenty strong. It is what it is.

Brutal honesty offends many---I am keenly aware of that. So be it. Silence and pretence offends many more as it promotes doping and acceptance of it. I should not have to 'dsiclaim' my understanding of widespread doping at pro-levels as mere opinion. My experiences have convinced me absolutely.


That's an interest bias you seem to have.

You suspect that dozens of former World Champions, Classic winners, and Grand Tour Champions are all fibbing about the doping of their former teammates, rivals, and peers could be lying re: doping as a necessary tool of the trade.

If it were just one disgruntled employee or just two jealous liars, well maybe the case for the doping truth would be very weak.

But that is not the case. These people corroborate each other. That is corroboration from over 40 years, from the legends to the water-carriers. All levels, all decades. That's powerful. That's a clear message.

Jealous lies? If so, they are damned impressive ones based upon the sheer volume and high quality of the so-called 'liars'.

When you factor in recent doping cases, Mark French, Tyler Hamilton , Johan Museeuw, Jo Plankaert, Chris Peers, David Millar, Oscar Camenzind, Santiago Perez, Nina Kraft, Rutger Beke, Kelly Guest, Katja Schumacher, Rebekah Keat, and many, many others expeosed just in the past 12 months it deafens the senses.

The truth is obvious. All of these winning athletes have peers and teammates. Morale and respect is a necessary element of sport, required in team sport.

If doping is tolerated by any one person---then either everyone must adopt that policy---or the team will disinegrate.

How anyone can image that teammates forgive and forget doping violations because of human kindness does not understand competitive people. Not by any stretch.

They accept doping violations---because they are not hypocrites---they very well may get busted next.

If you choose to believe that your favorite winning athletes are 'organic, pure and of a Corinthean Spirit' fine, go right ahead.
So in essence you're saying...

Based upon your experience (people known, you've ridden with, etc.) and also based upon the confirmed cases of doping, as well as what some acknowledge leaders in the sport have said... that there is not even one pro rider that doesn't dope in order to succeed?

It's hard for me to comprehend that in a group of people that large, even "competitive-type" people (of which I am one) that there isn't even one person willing to stand their ground on the doping issue.

John

Oke you made your point......that's it then right? I mean same things....in other words.....we know it. It's up to the forum to form their opinion. Yours is very clear.........so I don't see the need to continue...we know enough now!!!



Let's be doubly clear.

Your opinion is yours to own. My opinion is based upon personal insights gained over 20 years. I have raced with dopers, trained with dopers and befriended retired pro riders (dopers). I have also raced with guys who refused to dope. They went to Europe and were consulled out of the sport in one short season. (a dozen super fast guys). To those naive observers these guys failed. But I think they succeeded. They refused to medicate. They could have made it if they capitualated. They were talented winners and plenty strong. It is what it is.

Brutal honesty offends many---I am keenly aware of that. So be it. Silence and pretence offends many more as it promotes doping and acceptance of it. I should not have to 'dsiclaim' my understanding of widespread doping at pro-levels as mere opinion. My experiences have convinced me absolutely.


That's an interest bias you seem to have.

You suspect that dozens of former World Champions, Classic winners, and Grand Tour Champions are all fibbing about the doping of their former teammates, rivals, and peers could be lying re: doping as a necessary tool of the trade.

If it were just one disgruntled employee or just two jealous liars, well maybe the case for the doping truth would be very weak.

But that is not the case. These people corroborate each other. That is corroboration from over 40 years, from the legends to the water-carriers. All levels, all decades. That's powerful. That's a clear message.

Jealous lies? If so, they are damned impressive ones based upon the sheer volume and high quality of the so-called 'liars'.

When you factor in recent doping cases, Mark French, Tyler Hamilton , Johan Museeuw, Jo Plankaert, Chris Peers, David Millar, Oscar Camenzind, Santiago Perez, Nina Kraft, Rutger Beke, Kelly Guest, Katja Schumacher, Rebekah Keat, and many, many others expeosed just in the past 12 months it deafens the senses.

The truth is obvious. All of these winning athletes have peers and teammates. Morale and respect is a necessary element of sport, required in team sport.

If doping is tolerated by any one person---then either everyone must adopt that policy---or the team will disinegrate.

How anyone can image that teammates forgive and forget doping violations because of human kindness does not understand competitive people. Not by any stretch.

They accept doping violations---because they are not hypocrites---they very well may get busted next.

If you choose to believe that your favorite winning athletes are 'organic, pure and of a Corinthean Spirit' fine, go right ahead.

So in essence you're saying...

Based upon your experience (people known, you've ridden with, etc.) and also based upon the confirmed cases of doping, as well as what some acknowledge leaders in the sport have said... that there is not even one pro rider that doesn't dope in order to succeed?

It's hard for me to comprehend that in a group of people that large, even "competitive-type" people (of which I am one) that there isn't even one person willing to stand their ground on the doping issue.

John

There have been clean riders who have attempted to blow the whistle. What happened to them is consistent with most whistle blowers in deeply entrenched systems where there is no real public accountability.

Can you recall LA's zipped lips gesture after chasing down Simoni in the 2004 TdF? Simoni had broken the code of "omerta" amongst the peloton by informing on LA's doctor, Michele Ferrari.

Europeans accept that cycling is dope ridden and the fate of caught cyclists is accepted. Only general media comment.

In contrast, Americans naively believe a US rider can win gruelling multi stage events without resorting to performance enhancing and recovery drugs. Compare the outrage from the US about Tyler Hamilton's doping test failure to any recent European positive test and failure. Spanish fellow ex Phonak rider Santiago Perez accepted his fate over the same infraction without a public murmur.

There have been clean riders who have attempted to blow the whistle. What happened to them is consistent with most whistle blowers in deeply entrenched systems where there is no real public accountability.

Can you recall LA's zipped lips gesture after chasing down Simoni in the 2004 TdF? Simoni had broken the code of "omerta" amongst the peloton by informing on LA's doctor, Michele Ferrari.

Europeans accept that cycling is dope ridden and the fate of caught cyclists is accepted. Only general media comment.

In contrast, Americans naively believe a US rider can win gruelling multi stage events without resorting to performance enhancing and recovery drugs. Compare the outrage from the US about Tyler Hamilton's doping test failure to any recent European positive test and failure. Spanish fellow ex Phonak rider Santiago Perez accepted his fate over the same infraction without a public murmur.

VeloFlash,

Just to be clear it was Filipo Simeoni that you're referring to with regard to LA's antics in the 2004 TdF, not Gilberto Simoni. It's an easy mistake to make. Oh and... not all Americans are that naive! ;)

VeloFlash,

Just to be clear it was Filipo Simeoni that you're referring to with regard to LA's antics in the 2004 TdF, not Gilberto Simoni. It's an easy mistake to make. Oh and... not all Americans are that naive! ;)

And to add,what outrage? 90% of Americans don't even know who Hamilton is.

And to add,what outrage? 90% of Americans don't even know who Hamilton is.
I hear you. Hamilton is guilty, simple as that. His antics (excuses) just make him look worse in my eyes.

I hear you. Hamilton is guilty, simple as that. His antics (excuses) just make him look worse in my eyes.


I will say I was very disappointed in him and I wish I had some basis to defend him ,but can't.

VeloFlash,

Just to be clear it was Filipo Simeoni that you're referring to with regard to LA's antics in the 2004 TdF, not Gilberto Simoni. It's an easy mistake to make. Oh and... not all Americans are that naive! ;)

Mea Culpa. Thanks Meehs. But you got the gist.

And to add,what outrage? 90% of Americans don't even know who Hamilton is.

But 10% of the population of the US is 1.5 times the population of Australia and many cycling European countries :)

There have been clean riders who have attempted to blow the whistle. What happened to them is consistent with most whistle blowers in deeply entrenched systems where there is no real public accountability.
That's sort of my point. If there have been clean riders that have tried to blow the whistle, then it stands to reason there are also clean riders that haven't? The part I can't get around is that it is ALL riders doping.

Can you recall LA's zipped lips gesture after chasing down Simoni in the 2004 TdF? Simoni had broken the code of "omerta" amongst the peloton by informing on LA's doctor, Michele Ferrari.
Yep, I remember it well, and find the gesture very suspect.


In contrast, Americans naively believe a US rider can win gruelling multi stage events without resorting to performance enhancing and recovery drugs. Compare the outrage from the US about Tyler Hamilton's doping test failure to any recent European positive test and failure. Spanish fellow ex Phonak rider Santiago Perez accepted his fate over the same infraction without a public murmur.
In part, I think the public murmur is in response to Tyler's "denials". As I've stated previously in this thread, that just discredits him more in my opinion.

John

That's sort of my point. If there have been clean riders that have tried to blow the whistle, then it stands to reason there are also clean riders that haven't? The part I can't get around is that it is ALL riders doping.
According to ex Festina soigneur Willy Voet, who was a soigneur for over 20 years until 1998, only 5% of the peloton are clean. He can be used as a sample base because he was in charge of 600 riders in that period. The clean riders are known within the peloton.

Richard Virenque has reported to have said at the Festina Trial: "We don't say doping. We say we are preparing for the race. To take drugs is to cheat. As long as the person doesn't test positive, they're not taking drugs."

Virenque was a short term patient of Ferrari but could not afford his high fees.

Alex Zulle also defended over the Festina scandal: "Drugs are part of the business of cycling."

Zulle was a patient of Ferrari.

In part, I think the public murmur is in response to Tyler's "denials". As I've stated previously in this thread, that just discredits him more in my opinion.
I am referring to the outrage when TH was reported to have failed the Vuelta test and before his denials. Read the letters to editor in Cycling News and Velonews. A lot of US MD's offering "expert" opinions, contributors saying they would never ride a bike again, that cycling is "Un American" and they would dissuade any young American from taking up cycling, etc. Quite emotional and absurd.

of course not.....lance is a texan....enough said.

Let's be doubly clear.

Your opinion is yours to own.

Yes Flyer, your opinion is your own. I don't care what you base it on. It is an opinion. Keep it that way.

Who cares..... Sammy Sosa is still a super star.... I get sick and tired of people who try to digest someone else's life..... If you don't like him -- believe in him -- think he is an odol of cycling -- respresents good in cycling -- then go stick your head in the sand and give us all a backwards smile. That's my idea. Basso - I heard he's doing something -- that's what caused his upset tummy during the Giro. I heard he ate an apple off of the forbiden tree that lies along the Med. Who knows..... who cares......

Same opinion............WHO CARES! I won't lose any sleep, I can tell you that. On the contrary I will sleep very good, because the discussion is probably ended when the thruth is out and we finally can go on.


Who cares..... Sammy Sosa is still a super star.... I get sick and tired of people who try to digest someone else's life..... If you don't like him -- believe in him -- think he is an odol of cycling -- respresents good in cycling -- then go stick your head in the sand and give us all a backwards smile. That's my idea. Basso - I heard he's doing something -- that's what caused his upset tummy during the Giro. I heard he ate an apple off of the forbiden tree that lies along the Med. Who knows..... who cares......