Re: Tourer recommendations required

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JLB wrote:

> On the subject of brakes, my tourer used to have cantilevers and they
> were pathetic compared to anything else I've used.

Which, I'd suggest, is either poor quality parts or incorrect setup.
There is nothing wrong with correctly setup cantilever brakes.

Sheldon Brown covers the theory and practice of how to adjust them.


- Nigel

--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

NC wrote:
> JLB wrote:
>
>
>>On the subject of brakes, my tourer used to have cantilevers and they
>>were pathetic compared to anything else I've used.
>
>
> Which, I'd suggest, is either poor quality parts or incorrect setup.
> There is nothing wrong with correctly setup cantilever brakes.
>
> Sheldon Brown covers the theory and practice of how to adjust them.

That's academic to me now I no longer have a bike fitted with them, but
I used them for several years, they were Shimano parts fitted as
original equipment on a Chas Roberts so I doubt that low quality comes
into it, I adjusted them as often as needs be, switched brake blocks as
they wore etc. etc. and I stand by what I said - they were never as good
as the v-brakes I fitted to replace them or the dual pivots on my other
bikes; and although it's not a valid comparison since the road bike is
never loaded up for touring, not as good my bog-standard side-pull brakes.

YMMV.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

NC wrote:
> JLB wrote:
>
>
>>On the subject of brakes, my tourer used to have cantilevers and they
>>were pathetic compared to anything else I've used.
>
>
> Which, I'd suggest, is either poor quality parts or incorrect setup.
> There is nothing wrong with correctly setup cantilever brakes.
>
> Sheldon Brown covers the theory and practice of how to adjust them.
>
>
> - Nigel
>
I have never had a problem with my old Deore (wide profile) cantis, as
good as any V. Not to be compared with later narrow profile Shimano
cantils, they are poorer .

NC wrote:

> JLB wrote:
>
>
>>On the subject of brakes, my tourer used to have cantilevers and they
>>were pathetic compared to anything else I've used.
>
>
> Which, I'd suggest, is either poor quality parts or incorrect setup.
> There is nothing wrong with correctly setup cantilever brakes.
>
> Sheldon Brown covers the theory and practice of how to adjust them.

I have my cantis with the straddles as low as possible and upgraded pads
and there's still no stopping power. I'm replacing them with V-brakes...

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> NC wrote:
>
>> JLB wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On the subject of brakes, my tourer used to have cantilevers and
>>> they were pathetic compared to anything else I've used.
>>
>>
>> Which, I'd suggest, is either poor quality parts or incorrect setup.
>> There is nothing wrong with correctly setup cantilever brakes.
>>
>> Sheldon Brown covers the theory and practice of how to adjust them.
>
> I have my cantis with the straddles as low as possible and upgraded
> pads and there's still no stopping power. I'm replacing them with
> V-brakes...

Places to look:
Are the pads in the correct place ? The distance they are from the
cantilever arms alters the mechanical advantage of the system, if too close
to the cantilever arms, particularly with low-profile arms, the system
doesn't work correctly.

Are the brake cables in good condition ?

Have you tried with Shimano straddles ? - the ones which route the brake
cable to ones side of the cantilever in a triangular pattern, rather than
having a curved yoke cable. They seem more effective on lower profile arms
(particularly Shimano branded ones...).



- Nigel

--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> NC wrote:
>
>> JLB wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On the subject of brakes, my tourer used to have cantilevers and they
>>> were pathetic compared to anything else I've used.
>>
>>
>>
>> Which, I'd suggest, is either poor quality parts or incorrect setup.
>> There is nothing wrong with correctly setup cantilever brakes.
>>
>> Sheldon Brown covers the theory and practice of how to adjust them.
>
>
> I have my cantis with the straddles as low as possible and upgraded pads
> and there's still no stopping power. I'm replacing them with V-brakes...
Not all cantis are the same.

NC wrote:

> Places to look:
> Are the pads in the correct place ? The distance they are from the
> cantilever arms alters the mechanical advantage of the system, if too close
> to the cantilever arms, particularly with low-profile arms, the system
> doesn't work correctly.

There isn't much choice if the pads are to contact the rim at a roughly
flat angle. The rims are unusually wide (Rhyno Lites) which could be a
contributory problem.

> Are the brake cables in good condition ?

Yes - all replaced with genuine Shimano cable including outers, and a
new cable hanger improved the routing at the the front.

> Have you tried with Shimano straddles ? - the ones which route the brake
> cable to ones side of the cantilever in a triangular pattern, rather than
> having a curved yoke cable. They seem more effective on lower profile arms
> (particularly Shimano branded ones...).

They're not Shimano cantis but Suntour (the rear are the
oh-so-sophisticated Pedersen sel-energising cantis, which make didly
squat difference). AFAIK Shimano straddle wires were intended to
prevent the problem whereby the main brake cable breaks and the straddle
wire grabs the front tyre. If you believe Keith Bontrager, V-brakes
were introduced for the same reason - to avoid personal injury lawsuits.

The brakes are smooth and solid - possibly too solid - but they need
approximately twice the lever force as the dual-pivot brakes on my
racing bike. As the all-up weight of me and the bike is only around 5%
more, this seems rather unreasonable. Brake levers are Shimano RSX
which are supposed to be compatible with cantis. I suspect there is
just far too little mechanical advantage in the system.

But an even better reason to change is that pad setup with plain-post
cantis is a miserable experience. V's are easy.

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> NC wrote:
>
>> Places to look:
>> Are the pads in the correct place ? The distance they are from the
>> cantilever arms alters the mechanical advantage of the system, if
>> too close to the cantilever arms, particularly with low-profile
>> arms, the system doesn't work correctly.
>
> There isn't much choice if the pads are to contact the rim at a
> roughly flat angle. The rims are unusually wide (Rhyno Lites) which
> could be a contributory problem.


Wider rims should be helping the cantilevers rather than hindering.
However, if you are prepared to play with the existing brakes some more, I'd
still look at pushing the pads towards the limit of the posts.


>> Are the brake cables in good condition ?
>
> Yes - all replaced with genuine Shimano cable including outers, and a
> new cable hanger improved the routing at the the front.
>
>> Have you tried with Shimano straddles ? - the ones which route the
>> brake cable to ones side of the cantilever in a triangular pattern,
>> rather than having a curved yoke cable. They seem more effective on
>> lower profile arms (particularly Shimano branded ones...).
>
> They're not Shimano cantis but Suntour (the rear are the
> oh-so-sophisticated Pedersen sel-energising cantis, which make didly
> squat difference). AFAIK Shimano straddle wires were intended to
> prevent the problem whereby the main brake cable breaks and the
> straddle wire grabs the front tyre.

I believe this is true, but a side effect is that the wires seem to work
better than the curved wire type. I changed from the traditional straddle
wires on my partner's bike (Shimano cantilevers) and it improved noticeably.
I've not felt the need to change on my tourer as the brakes are all I need
(old Suntour X-1 cantilevers).


> If you believe Keith Bontrager,
> V-brakes were introduced for the same reason - to avoid personal
> injury lawsuits.

Quite likely. Also look a bit simpler to setup at the factory/shop.

> The brakes are smooth and solid - possibly too solid - but they need
> approximately twice the lever force as the dual-pivot brakes on my
> racing bike. As the all-up weight of me and the bike is only around
> 5% more, this seems rather unreasonable.

It is unreasonable.

> Brake levers are Shimano RSX
> which are supposed to be compatible with cantis. I suspect there is
> just far too little mechanical advantage in the system.



> But an even better reason to change is that pad setup with plain-post
> cantis is a miserable experience. V's are easy.

So Suntour have gone backwards in design !! The plain post cantilever is a
right pain to setup, one reason why I changed my partner's bike's pads to a
type which uses replaceable cartridge pads.

My 1990-ish Suntour cantilevers have nice easy to adjust socket-nuts, which
are almost identical to current V-pad designs (sufficiently identical that
V-brake pads will fit perfectly as replacements) .


I assume you know that there are only a few types of drop-bar lever which
work with V-brakes ?


- Nigel


--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

NC wrote:


> I assume you know that there are only a few types of drop-bar lever which
> work with V-brakes ?

Only one, I think - the Dia-Compe 287V. Some people are happy with the
feel of V's with ordinary levers though - it just means the pads have to
rest very close to the rim and the brakes will feel more spongy.