Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

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Remember when Riss won the tour?.......GOD he looked scary.....toothpic thin and white as a sheet except for those rosey red cheeks(from the high hematocrit)

The guys crit was so high that he was dubbed MR. 60% he he he

This guy basically came out of nowhere in 96 and 97(from below top 20) due to his heavy EPO use.

Should he have his tour win revoked?

Comments?

Remember when Riss won the tour?.......GOD he looked scary.....toothpic thin and white as a sheet except for those rosey red cheeks(from the high hematocrit)

The guys crit was so high that he was dubbed MR. 60% he he he

This guy basically came out of nowhere in 96 and 97(from below top 20) due to his heavy EPO use.

Should he have his tour win revoked?

Comments? Refresh my memory on when he got caught with 60%, wasn't it after going to the hospital for some accident?

Does this imply he is doing something unethical with the riders that find their careers reborn under his tutelage, ie Hamilton, etc?

Refresh my memory on when he got caught with 60%, wasn't it after going to the hospital for some accident?

Does this imply he is doing something unethical with the riders that find their careers reborn under his tutelage, ie Hamilton, etc?


Yes I think that was the case...at any rate he was shown to have a 60% crit during the tour!

...but wasn't he tested again and was still very high? Maybe someone can make this clearer.

I really hope Hamilton is clean but I just don't know.

And....what about Lance....advanced testicular cancer at 26.....maybe due to drug use in his past??

In regard to Riss.... NOBODY gets a 60% crit without either blood doping or EPO use.

Remember when Riss won the tour?.......GOD he looked scary.....toothpic thin and white as a sheet except for those rosey red cheeks(from the high hematocrit)

The guys crit was so high that he was dubbed MR. 60% he he he

This guy basically came out of nowhere in 96 and 97(from below top 20) due to his heavy EPO use.

Should he have his tour win revoked?

Comments?

Who is this Riss you're stammering about?

Oh, you mean Bjarne Riis? When did he ever test positive for EPO? Did you want to revoke his TDF win on rumor and conjecture? Well then you better revoke Lance's TDF wins also.

And Pantani was the one who had a 60% haematocrit in the hospital after an accident.

Now I'll let you get back to your circle jerk poll forum with the other jerky boys here. :rolleyes:

Who is this Riss you're stammering about?

Oh, you mean Bjarne Riis? When did he ever test positive for EPO? Did you want to revoke his TDF win on rumor and conjecture? Well then you better revoke Lance's TDF wins also.

And Pantani was the one who had a 60% haematocrit in the hospital after an accident.

Now I'll let you get back to your circle jerk poll forum with the other jerky boys here. :rolleyes:




Opps....I sorry for the spelling .....but whats with the flame?

I didn't say he tested positive for EPO.....but he did test in near 60% thus his nickman Mr. 60%. Nobody gets a crit above 50% without the use of EPO or transfusions!

AND...why do you talk about Lance...his hematocrit has never been tested above 45%.

Here is a good quote....

Most dramatic for the Danish viewers was information concerning national hero Bjarne Riis - that EPO was being used by Gewiss-Ballan riders in 1995, at which time Riis was with the team. The journalists have apparently come in the possession of papers documenting the testing of Gewiss-Ballan riders’ hematocrit levels in 1995. According to these papers, Gewiss-Ballan riders were tested on 14 January 1995, at which time Riis had a hematocrit level of 41.1% (normal for an adult male). Six months later, on 10 July 1995, the rest day of that year’s Tour, just days after Riis had worn the maillot jaune for the first time, tests indicated that his hæmatocrit levels were then 56.3%.

Yes I think that was the case...at any rate he was shown to have a 60% crit during the tour!

...but wasn't he tested again and was still very high? Maybe someone can make this clearer.

I really hope Hamilton is clean but I just don't know.

And....what about Lance....advanced testicular cancer at 26.....maybe due to drug use in his past??

In regard to Riss.... NOBODY gets a 60% crit without either blood doping or EPO use. To say that about Lance is pretty offensive. Testicular cancer is a disease that afflicts young men fron their early twenties to the early thirties. Plenty of young men who have never been professional athletes have suffered this disease.

To say that about Lance is pretty offensive. Testicular cancer is a disease that afflicts young men fron their early twenties to the early thirties. Plenty of young men who have never been professional athletes have suffered this disease.



At work a urologist said that he wondered about why Armstrong got testicular cancer and he went on to say that it is rare. He also added that the use of exogenous testosterone has been proven to promote the developement of testicular cancer.

The use of exogenous testosterone at times during the year, to assist in the recovery process is not uncommon during the year with many pro teams. Long term intense trianing will reduce ones testosterone production and hamper recovery and thus the use of testosterone by injection.

The use of exogenous testosterone will completely shut down ones own natural testosterone production, even at 100mg per week, and the testicular atrophy that occurs over the weeks can trigger testicular cancer, this is a scientific fact.

I have been racing Cat 1 for 10 years and have raced all over Europe as well. I have followed the pro game for years. If you think that Lance Armstrong has never used performance enhancing drugs thats fine but it's pretty naive and overly trusting in my humble opinion.

Look, the best Cat 1 teams that I know of use performance enhancing drugs, and especially testosterone at certain times of the year. In fact the practise of saving your own blood and then transfusing before big races(not all) is almost a given. So why do you think Armstrong, or any other pro for that matter, is clean 100% of the time?

And yes dopping with your own blood is unfair but everyone does it bro from time to time....it's "a given" .

My crit runs about 40% normally but if I can boost it up to even 44 or 45% it makes a big difference in my performance!

Now I am not saying that Armstrong is using EPO or blood dopping with other peoples blood as that would almost certainly cause him to be caught. BUT ...I would bet my life that he is transfusing his own blood for the tour, being careful to not exceed a 50% hematocrit, and is using testosterone from time to time BEFORE the tour as well.

By the way it is very easy to jump your hematocrit above 50% with dopping but it is also very easy to drop it down with a bolus transfusion of lactated ringers or normal saline.

IMO it all boils down to the following:
Did Riis get caught cheating? No! Thus he shouldn't have his TdF win removed.
Has Armstrong been caught cheating? No! Thus he shouldn't have any of his TdF wins removed.

To me its all very simpel: follow the rules that WADA and UCI has established, catch the guilty parts and punish themto the maximum under the given ruleset at a given momemt, no more no less! Common pratice of law and order I would think.

...
And....what about Lance....advanced testicular cancer at 26.....maybe due to drug use in his past??
...
My cousin had testicular cancer in his 20s and he was not taking any drugs which may have caused the disease. I had cancer when I was 28 and though I am a biker I have never taken any performance enhancing drugs.

Why do you ask if Bjarne Riis should have his tour win revoked? On what basis? He was never caught doing anything illegal which would put his tour win in doubt.

My cousin had testicular cancer in his 20s and he was not taking any drugs which may have caused the disease. I had cancer when I was 28 and though I am a biker I have never taken any performance enhancing drugs.

Why do you ask if Bjarne Riis should have his tour win revoked? On what basis? He was never caught doing anything illegal which would put his tour win in doubt.



He had a crit of almost 60% bro....DURING THE TOUR!

How high can one raise the hematocrit level through hypoxic training? (Either by training at altitude or sleeping in a "tent").

I'm not saying this is an explanation for Riis' levels, or anyone elses, but I'm genuinely curious. Anyone?

How high can one raise the hematocrit level through hypoxic training? (Either by training at altitude or sleeping in a "tent").

I'm not saying this is an explanation for Riis' levels, or anyone elses, but I'm genuinely curious. Anyone?


UPPER 40's tops.

Riis had his in the upper 50's and believe me that makes a huge diff....

Riis was surely a NON CONTENDER for the tour title UNTIL he dopped his way up to almost 60%!
Here's a guyy that came almost out of nowhere(below top 15 for sure) to win the tour at age 34!! Come on now

UPPER 40's tops.

Riis had his in the upper 50's and believe me that makes a huge diff....

Riis was surely a NON CONTENDER for the tour title UNTIL he dopped his way up to almost 60%!
Here's a guyy that came almost out of nowhere(below top 15 for sure) to win the tour at age 34!! Come on now


I accept the premise of your point - however in defence of Riis, you seem to suggest that he came out of nowhere in 1996.

His record in the TDF prior to 1996 was quite consistent - he managed to finish on the podium and was top 10 finisher a couple of times as well, prior to winning in 1996.
He finished each tour he started also.

His "credibility" is far more compelling than Armstrong's.

I accept the premise of your point - however in defence of Riis, you seem to suggest that he came out of nowhere in 1996.

His record in the TDF prior to 1996 was quite consistent - he managed to finish on the podium and was top 10 finisher a couple of times as well, prior to winning in 1996.
He finished each tour he started also.

His "credibility" is far more compelling than Armstrong's.


Well thats true....but he really didn't get noticed until about 94 at age 32 and then BOOM he was #1 at age 34!....he jumped at least 10 ranking places in less than one year from 95 until he won the tour!

Not quite. Pantani's hematocrit level dropped to 27% after his ER visit. The staff was very concerned that he would die---until Pantani's doctor appeared and jacked him back up to 37% in a few hours.

The now deceased Marco Pantani was DQed from the 1999 Giro---whilst leading with a too high hematocrit >50%. It was a huge national scandal, and I was there. I still can't believe that the Italians would DQ ther own. But they did!! So much for business motives as is true in nearly all other events.

Bijarne Riis used doctor Luigi Cecchini. So too does Tyler Hamilton and Ivan Basso.

Phonak's Inaki Arratibel took the fall--but it was Luigi's witchcraft that won the medals.

After so many deaths and poor performances by EPO overdosed athletes the focus has moved from high hematocrit to faster moving richer blood.

The RSR-13, thinners, vasodilators and HBOCs can keep the hematrocrits and blood pressure lower whilst speeding up the oxygen flow.

It is the "performance" of transporting the oxygen that makes the greatest difference for sustainable power.

No, the 1995 TDF trophy should go to Luigi, not Bijarne. It's only fair.


Before Michele Ferrari had Lance, he had Berzin and Rominger. He has had a great run after working on Francesco Moser and the hour record with Conconi. All riders with tremendous sustainable power.




good stuff and thanx!

Well thats true....but he really didn't get noticed until about 94 at age 32 and then BOOM he was #1 at age 34!....he jumped at least 10 ranking places in less than one year from 95 until he won the tour!

Well as I said I agree with your central point - I was as surprised as anyone else
when he was able to beat the entire TDF peloton at will in 1996.

But I conclude that if Riis's improvement in 1996 raises question marks, Lance
Armstrong's "improvement" is much more suspicious, given his complete ineptitude in the TDF between 1992-1996, compared to his utter domination
from 1999-present.

Well as I said I agree with your central point - I was as surprised as anyone else
when he was able to beat the entire TDF peloton at will in 1996.

But I conclude that if Riis's improvement in 1996 raises question marks, Lance
Armstrong's "improvement" is much more suspicious, given his complete ineptitude in the TDF between 1992-1996, compared to his utter domination
from 1999-present.


Thats true and I concure.....Lance went from a good one day classic rider to SUPERMAN and six tour wins in a row! Questions pop up for sure!

One thing that might have made him the man he is now is a significant drop in body weight from a racing weight of about 170 or so to a tour starting weight of 158.

Couple of points on Lance vrs other riders.

Lance was a one-day or 5-day stage race competitor when he started with Michele Ferrari.

Ferrari is a coach who is famous for dialing in a riders best attributes. He has been most successful with Grand Tour and Time Trialists.

Berzin, Rominger and Francesco Moser to name a few. Conconi was the boss with Moser, but Ferrari assisted.

Anyway Lance and Ferrari only worked together for 12-18 months before Lance's hCG levels appeared, and appeared at lethal levels. No man should have an hCG hormone in their system unless they are 1) pregnant 2) having injections for T/E masking or 3)with cancer or 4) both 2 & 3 combined.

Immediately after completing his last Chemotheraphy treatment, post surgery, post radiation, Lance returned to Ferrara, Italy, and Michele to commence the "rebuilding anabolic phase". (within 10 days)

As he recovered and gained back lost muscles---somehow, in the training, a decision was made to avoid building up the "upper body mass" so this was were musch of the weight savings came from.

More emphasis was put on "sustainable power output" and less on "sprinting".

In the end, a GC stage contentor, time trialist and climber replaced the "all rounder" former champ.

Lance was good to go by September 1998, after leaving in October 1996.

Pretty fast recovery compared with my Mom's cancer.

Extraordinary, I would say, especially if all he used were figs and water.


Hmm.
This is my entire difficulty with LA.
Bad enough that he cheats.
But he also invokes the cases of genuinely ill people with cancer.
It's despicable.

Ah, but I'm covering old ground here.

Hmm.
This is my entire difficulty with LA.
Bad enough that he cheats.
But he also invokes the cases of genuinely ill people with cancer.
It's despicable.

Ah, but I'm covering old ground here.

Even Lance's ILLNESS was not genuine?
Lance invoked the cases of genuine cancer patients? Where? Flyer did of course.

My OWN hematocrit has tested above 50% a couple times (just barely, but no drugs involved - regular physicals), and the testing lab showed the normal range to be 40 - 54% and even the UCI allows for high normal readings (I think Cunego has one)... so TiMan is full of crap in this regard.

I think Lance is working the system to the max and walking a tight line but calling him a cheater is without foundation.

Back on topic - good god Bjarne is getting fatter everytime I see him. What an embarassment - worse than having a Tour victory taken away. He reminds me of the Michelin man.

I am an sports orthopedic surgeon and I can tell you that although some labs list the upper range as 54% it is extremely rare to see a crit of even 47%.
999 out of 1000 men will have a crit of between 40 and 45%. Why do you think the "cut off" level in pro races is 50%!!
Most men can get their crit up to the upper 40's with altitude training for months

You are either very lucky and rare to have a 50% crit OR you were dehydrated.

Fact of the matter is Riis either dopped or used EPO to get his nearly 60% crit....it's that simple.