Why do people feel the need to start and perpetuate DOPING rumors?

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I constantly see people post threads regarding doping. While I am fine with discussing the perils of drug use and professional athletics, I just don't understand why certain individuals think they have the right to post un-factual innuendo as truths.

Do I believe that there is doping in the world of sports, absolutely. Do I have disdain for those PROVEN to have used performance enhancing substances, definitley.

That being said, if there is NO PROOF other than speculation regarding any individual, then it's not right to point fingers just because some athletes are more successful than others.

I think there is a lot of anti-American, Anti-Lance sentiment on these forums and certain people are so desperate to make excuses as to why their favorite riders are not winning that they have to make up stories.

If there is concern about the dangers of doping, then why not just stick to that aspect of it. Why is there a CONSTANT mud slinging about athletes who have NEVER tested positive for ANY banned substance?

I think it's hatred and jealousy that fuels these people and they hide behind a cloak of "we are concerned for the health and safety of the children", when they are really just all about smearing Lance's name.

I am sure I will get lot's of replies that state I am out of touch with what's going on in Pro Cycling, but at least I can stick to the facts.

I tend to agree with you. A lot of what has been posted about "proof" borders on "conspiracy thoeries" . Some features I posted in another thread

Detractors believe

Not backed up by sufficient evidence.
Phrased in such a way as to be unfalsifiable (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=597ruit37spgm?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Falsifiability&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a).
Improbably complex.
Subscribers believe


Those powerful people involved in the conspiracy hide, destroy, or obfuscate (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=597ruit37spgm?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Obfuscation&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) evidence.
Skeptics (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=597ruit37spgm?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Skepticism&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) / apologists (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=597ruit37spgm?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Apologetics&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) are not (in their opinion) prepared to keep an open mind.
Skeptics / apologists may be politically motivated and have a vested interest in the status quo (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=597ruit37spgm?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Status+quo&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a).
If you look at this a lot that has been presented as "proof" and defense of this "proof" falls into these categories.

Ugh. Did we really need *another* doping thread?

I constantly see people post threads regarding doping. While I am fine with discussing the perils of drug use and professional athletics, I just don't understand why certain individuals think they have the right to post un-factual innuendo as truths.

Do I believe that there is doping in the world of sports, absolutely. Do I have disdain for those PROVEN to have used performance enhancing substances, definitley.

That being said, if there is NO PROOF other than speculation regarding any individual, then it's not right to point fingers just because some athletes are more successful than others.

I think there is a lot of anti-American, Anti-Lance sentiment on these forums and certain people are so desperate to make excuses as to why their favorite riders are not winning that they have to make up stories.

If there is concern about the dangers of doping, then why not just stick to that aspect of it. Why is there a CONSTANT mud slinging about athletes who have NEVER tested positive for ANY banned substance?

I think it's hatred and jealousy that fuels these people and they hide behind a cloak of "we are concerned for the health and safety of the children", when they are really just all about smearing Lance's name.

I am sure I will get lot's of replies that state I am out of touch with what's going on in Pro Cycling, but at least I can stick to the facts.
I agree, at least this thread is dealing with peoples opinions as opposed to rumors & sudo-facts based on opinion.

I agree, at least this thread is dealing with peoples opinions as opposed to rumors & sudo-facts based on opinion.
so the ex-pro quoted in velo news saying that Epo made him capable of pedalling at high cadence for long periods of time was dealing in conjecture or fact?

so the ex-pro quoted in velo news saying that Epo made him capable of pedalling at high cadence for long periods of time was dealing in conjecture or fact?

No, it means that he has admitted to using EPO and any discussions about him using EPO are factual and therefore fair game.

It does not mean, however, that because one pro admitted to it that ALL are guilty of it, which is what tends to happen around here (one rider in particular).

That is what I am saying. Discuss those proven to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt to your hearts content, but don't paint everyone with the same brush for convenience sake.

Well done mjolnir2k! You speak the truth! I do have to say though, it is only two or three individuals who seem to have a bad disdain for anything American. They know who they are! I'm sure you will come under fire for this but you had the Cajones to get it out there!

I couldn't have said it better myself.....so I won't.

Dan.

Perhaps your missing the point. Nobody is saying that the atheletes that get caught are un-true or fictional. What IS being said is that too many people are claiming that others are doping when there is no proof to back it up. Bottom line here is that some people are addicted to unverifiable Speculation. We need to stick with facts and not rumors.

Rumors? I got 12 dead cyclists in 24 months, I have 16 year olds on EPO, I have females going EPO positive in triathlons, I have 4 World Champion going down to doping in 2004 alone, I have David Millar calling everyone a liar and a rumor hound---when it was HE who was the fraud.


When you watch the TDF you are observing both a drama and an active chemistry experiment. A lot of folks are simply unaware of that.

Bob Roll, Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwin all know a lot more than what is permitted to go out via the media feeds. Never offend the advertisers and stick with the script.

Disclosure of drug use is more important than training routines and it is the only way to understand the whole truth about what think you know.

Cover up are both tedious and fraudulent.


Hatred & jealousy? Who wants to die from drug abuses? Do you?

Sigh, we've already argued these points in 2 seperate threads and you are still oblivious to what my point is.

YOU do not have ANY dead cyclists, YOU do not have World Champions going down, YOU do not have any connection to David Millar (or anyone else for that matter) because YOU have no connection to any of these people.

How do YOU know what Bob Roll, Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwin know or do not know. Have YOU personally spoken to them? Do they write their secret thought to YOU?

YOU persist in painting an entire sport with the same brush and have no discretionary ability to discern truth from rumor.

If YOU hate those who cycle so much, why don't YOU remove yourself from it's influence and find another hobby to criticize.

Recognize it's YOU who perpetuates rumor while solving nothing. It's YOU who seek to denigrate the sport for your own pleasure while illuminating nothing. It's YOU who harbor your own hatred for certain individuals and allow that hatred to color your opinions.

Is there doping in sports, absolutely. Do YOU know who the dopers are, absolutely NOT. YOU never have, but apparently that is not enough to stop YOU from casting a bad light on all.

once again..for good measure:
is doping BAD..YES IT IS, but NOT ALL CYCLISTS USE DRUGS, SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY ARE THAT TALENTED. I realize this is beyond your ability to comprehend.

Name the clean cyclists from the 2004 TDF start list.


That's MY point..I Can't name the clean cyclists any more than YOU can name the dirty ones. Because NEITHER of us knows for a fact. The difference is that I don't pass rumor as fact like you do.

If I were you, then I would say that EVERY cyclist is clean because Lance did not test positive for doping, right? that's how your logic works...

How about this test of your logic:
YOU are a pedophile! You work with teens right? I know for a FACT that there have been people who worked with teens and who have been arrested for molesting them. YOU work with teens, so by YOUR logic YOU are a pedophile who molests teens.

Idiotic, isn't it?...NOW DO YOU GET IT?????

No, it means that he has admitted to using EPO and any discussions about him using EPO are factual and therefore fair game.

It does not mean, however, that because one pro admitted to it that ALL are guilty of it, which is what tends to happen around here (one rider in particular).

That is what I am saying. Discuss those proven to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt to your hearts content, but don't paint everyone with the same brush for convenience sake.



No one is suggesting that all cyclists are dopeurs.

Some cyclists are dopeurs.
Some cyclists palmares and career details, suggest doping.

No one has claimed that every single professional cyclist is doping.

Evidence suggests that some of them are dopeurs.
And people are free to express views about doping.
Your lot call it freedom of speech, as far as I remember.

In corporate America---the chief underwriters of professional and Olympic sport--we refer to it as a commercial advertisement---or if the message appears too disturbing or real---we call it; Shoot the messenger only if name calling, referring to them as a jealous idiot, full of hatred, pedophile and other hyper defensive and meanspirted tactics do not work to discredit the offender offering up public data to futher annoy people into connecting the dots.


And while I would love to believe that at least one professional TDF rider might not use medications/preparations on a daily basis---my personal research is that none do. Even the so-called clean riders uses corticosteroids, sleeping pills, and stimlulants from time to time. So a clean rider just uses lower dosages or lower frequencies than do the champion riders.

So too with the Greyhounds and ponies.

One friend of mine said to me; "It's all about the definitions" You can redefine doping into rejuvenation if you try hard enough.

Or two double Vodka Martinis every night is a NOT drinking problem for many alcoholics.

Who are we to judge them?


Not to muddy the waters here, but when I discuss this subject, I have in mind
performance enhancing drugs, such as EPO.
I also include HGH and blood doping and genetic engineering.

In a strict legal sense, 20 cups of coffee would put one over the caffeine limit.
While this was deemed to be drug use (and performance enhancing), it's hardly up there with EPO, HGH etc.

I think that the majority of pros are using stuff.
If this stuff is to simply survive in the peloton, it is understandable, if not excusable.

But other cyclists are using stuff which cheats their fellow cyclists from podium places, prize money, records : and the drug culture which supports and nourishes and affirms these athletes, and their performances, cascades
downwards through the professional ranks, thus perpetuating and sustaining
drug usage at the lower end of the peloton.

Right on Limerickman: I agree wholeheartedly, in theory only. Those waters are alread polluted so you cannot muddy them further.

As a practical matter, the "human survival psychcology" is nowhere more powerful than in elite cycling, a team sport of peer influence and determination.

I have had many professional racers tell me that so long as there are within doping compliance, they are clean.

If hematocrit level allowed is 50%---then all that matters if blood is drawn---and it seldom ever is---then their blood must be 50%. That's the rule.

Testosterone supplements are illegal---but they are nearly impossible to detect. So how is a cheater found out?

HGH is not detectable---and that makes it "legal" for many athletes.

Caffeine suppositories were very common ten years ago----the Festina Team certainly carried large volumes of caffeine along with the Belgian Mix (clear liquid of heroin, caffeine, cocaine, morphine and corticosteroids) in 10, 15, and milligram vials.

Today, with the improvement in HBOCs hematocrit levels can be run lower than 50% whilst gaining big boosts of endurance power.

With thinners (oral Asaflow) and vasodilators (viagra)
blood pressure, viscosity, hematocrit and blood flow/efficiency can all be dialed in for a Time Trial or for a 6 hour stage.

With all of these factors coming into play along with enormous financial pressure and peer pressure brought to bear-----It is not humanly possible for an athlete---no matter how talented or determined to avoid using these powerful trauma solutions.

If you tried to resist your fellow teammates would how a cow and resent you. Never trusting you and making loyal and selfless team work impossible.


That is why Tyler Hamiton can be on the very same squad as Oscar Camenzind and Alex Zulle. They are all of the very same ilk. They have no choice.

So too with David Millar and Cedric Vasseur.

So too as Cedric Vasseur and Lance Armstrong and Tyler Hamilton, three USPO alumni buddies.

And once you accept drugs as a solution---the very next thing you become is; A bald face liar! All doper deny using drugs---even when caught red handed. They never admit it----except in a very few extreme cases (Festina, TVM, and Millar) Nobody is measuring performance results by stimulants over HGH. You injesct whatever the doc tells you--and the rest is history. Winners, losers and worker bees.

Since testosterone, corticosteroids, stimulants and EPO and HGH can all be flown under doping controls--they are accepted as rejuvenators allowed in sport.

The peloton is one fraterity, not several. One unit of Gladiators. They all live by the sword and they die by the sword too.

btw: did you read that another cyclist died on Monday?

This time it was 43 year old Alexandre Zinoviev, now a USA citizen of Ohio. Moved here in 1990. He was a winner of several team time trial world championships as well as numerous stage victories in the Giro and other big stage races.

Alex died of intestinal cancer, not uncommon for cyclists. Anquetil died of pancreatic cancer, Lance had testicular, Lance two teammates have deceases which can morph to gastric cancer.

Anyway, we have 12 unnatural cycling deaths in 24 months now, not counting new illnesses.

Only the fans can debate which drugs are acceptable and which are the really good charges. The riders cannot tell---they just want success.


I raced against Zinoviev in the early 1980's, when he was part of a very very strong Soviet squad.
Needless to say, we were destroyed by them and the East Germans.
They were doing what the US amateur squads were doing - and which was exposed, but covered up, at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games.

I think that you miss my point.
There are riders who take stuff to simply survive - to race and finish in the bunch and get their contract renewed each year.
Others, at the top, consume stuff in order to get podium places, large cash prizes and the like.
To me, there is a clear distinction between both groups.
Unfortunately, because the upper echelons are getting better performances from their enhancement intake, this requires those further down the food chain to consume (whether they want to or not) more, or more effective, enhancements, in order to improve their performance and protect their livelihood.
It is a vicious snake that cascades from the top echelon, down to the lower
levels.

I am well aware of the ethical and moral rationalisations that the pros make
in order to vindicate their actions (we all have contacts and anecdotes within
this, and prior, pelotons).

And you're right, the level of premature deaths in our sport, amongst the profesional ranks, far outstrips all other sports.
Throw in the number of cases of ex-pros who suffer from depression and other psychotic illnesses, it does seem that our sport is pre-disposed to
substance abuse.

Looks like you two had quite a field day last night whilst I got my beauty rest..LOL

Ok, this is at a juncture where there is only one absolute. we do not see eye to eye.

Flyer..you can trot out as many inuendos, circumstances and half truths as you would like, back them up with twice baked statistics, heresay and include you personal invectives and I still will not buy into ALL cyclists are dirty and LANCE MUST be a DOPER.

Your simple math that he knew this person and that person was a doper so he must also be a doper isn't logical to me. Your 1/2 truths about Lance's testing in the 2000 TDF leave out the actual medical findings that he was treating a saddle sore (common for cyclists mind you, as they do tend to sit on their BUTTS for long periods of time) and that he was cleared (yup, CLEARED) of any wrondoing by a French provisional court that was desperate to find him guilty of something (whilst they turn a blind eye to a CONFIRMED doper Mr. Virenque, as he is French)

Show me 1 (one, UNO, EINZ) SINGLE POSITIVE TEST for Lance. He has his blood drawn more than a naked man at a mosquito convention, yet NEVER has his blood been tested and found in question. The word of a fired masseur, embittered ex-cyclist (LeMond) or any other shady charecter is not enough to change my mind.

As my original point HAS ALWAYS stated, discuss to your hearts content the ills and perils of doping and those who have are confirmed dopers, but leave your mud slinging and axe grinding at the door. Your comments always seem to be directed at making a case that LA is a doper when you have no FACTS to back this claim up. Why do you harbor such ill will? Did he run over your puppy on a training ride?

Limmerickman we are actually closer in option on these matters as it seems you harbor less intent to sling mud at LA than to address a concern regarding ramapnt drug abuse within the Peleton. I would agree that the pressures to perform lead SOME (not all, but SOME) athletes to turn to dope. It happens in every single sport that pays for performance (and even some that don't).

I don't deny this is a ethical and medical issue that we all hope gets attention and resolution.

If there was more emphasis on the facts and less on the attempts to throw mud I think most people would be more inclined to view these comments as credible.

I agree that there are probably a high percentage of cyclist taking drugs today but I get tired of hearing who is or who isn't taking drugs when there is no solid evidence to prove it one way or another. I don't really care about circumstantial evidence, I want only 100% proven facts. Without 100% proof it is only a rumor and like all rumors they should be limited to old grumpy people in church or knitting clubs.



To me the bottom line is that nobody should be required to take drugs just because everybody else does. Every athlete that takes drugs to enhance their performance is a cheater, regardless if they take a podium spot or win a medal. Because of the cheaters too many athletes are now taking the same life threatening drugs to protect their livelihood. This should not happen and needs to be cleaned up so nobody has to lose a family member just because of their profession. I hate to think of kids wanting to become pro athletes, and being forced to take drugs just to compete with a bunch of cheaters. It's not fair and needs to stopped, I say there should be stiffer penalties when they are caught and there needs to be better/more testing if that's what it takes.

Limmerickman we are actually closer in option on these matters as it seems you harbor less intent to sling mud at LA than to address a concern regarding ramapnt drug abuse within the Peleton. I would agree that the pressures to perform lead SOME (not all, but SOME) athletes to turn to dope. It happens in every single sport that pays for performance (and even some that don't).

I don't deny this is a ethical and medical issue that we all hope gets attention and resolution.

If there was more emphasis on the facts and less on the attempts to throw mud I think most people would be more inclined to view these comments as credible.

I wouldn't get too carried away with all this supposed concensus.

I believe that LA represents the worst aspect of double standards throughout
all professional sport, and not just cycling.
I believe he is a cheat.

As regards, the more general question of drugs in sport, we might well agree.

I wouldn't get too carried away with all this supposed concensus.

I believe that LA represents the worst aspect of double standards throughout
all professional sport, and not just cycling.
I believe he is a cheat.

As regards, the more general question of drugs in sport, we might well agree.

Ah, I see I was incorrect in judging your motives. It had "appeared" that you were more reasonable of the two and had less of an axe to grind. I now see that you are just as consumed with jealousy as Flyer when it comes to LA and you also can't stand to see him remain clean and untainted by any actual EVIDENCE.

It's sad that you put on this whole front about a concern for the sport when really it is just a front to attack LA.

Why not just be honest and post a thread that states "I hate Lance" or "My wet dream about Lance taking drugs". At least that would be a more accurate portrayal of your true intentions.

Why do you think he is jealous of lance? What 'proof' do you have? Besides, there is waaay more to cycling than just lance.

The only way something changes/improves is if you look at it closely, scrutinize the details, and push for change. We all know there is a doping problem in sport in general. Maybe 25% of the peleton uses peds. That's a huge amount. Maybe it's 90%. I say maybe lance uses peds, maybe he doesn't. Either way, I still enjoy the sport of cycling but think it would be better off clean. Kids are doping, ex pros are dying young. LA is the most visible part of the sport, and even though it certainly isn't fun for him to be under the microscope, and part of me thinks we should leave him alone, the sport is clearly not clean and I think LA should be willing to help.

No sense having a pissing match about this. I like LA, but I also like to go race my bike every weekend and will still do so, and still like LA, even if he is proven a cheat. I'd be much happier if he and the rest of the peleton were clean, however.

Why do you think he is jealous of lance? What 'proof' do you have? Besides, there is waaay more to cycling than just lance.


Um, about a million posts from him that directly indicates this. LOL

See, you are able to verbalize your opinion of the doping problem in a way that is reasonable without the invectives and supposition about certain riders. That's been my point the whole time, but some fail to see that.