pealling push up push down

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Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to say this. I watched the video clips on the Power Cranks web site, and those are just a joke. Showing what sorts of "tricks" the PC's can do while on a 20-second climb is just silly...I don't care if that guy riding in the video can average 500, 600, or 850 watts during each of the "tricks," until I see him putting out more power at threshold, everything that's on the PC web site holds no water. It's seriously NOT convincing to hear an owner of a gym talk about how a spin bike would never be brought in the gym and how PC's are just the best thing since sliced bread. C'mon guys...a new abstract, ONE research article, and an array of customer comments...it's just not gonna do it for me. I think we need more than this to buy into PC's.

Also, all this talk about training the hamstrings in the videos got me thinking....how do PC's effectively train the hamstrings better than conventional cranks? http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to say this. I watched the video clips on the Power Cranks web site, and those are just a joke. Showing what sorts of "tricks" the PC's can do while on a 20-second climb is just silly...I don't care if that guy riding in the video can average 500, 600, or 850 watts during each of the "tricks," until I see him putting out more power at threshold, everything that's on the PC web site holds no water. It's seriously NOT convincing to hear an owner of a gym talk about how a spin bike would never be brought in the gym and how PC's are just the best thing since sliced bread. C'mon guys...a new abstract, ONE research article, and an array of customer comments...it's just not gonna do it for me. I think we need more than this to buy into PC's.

Also, all this talk about training the hamstrings in the videos got me thinking....how do PC's effectively train the hamstrings better than conventional cranks? http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
if you've obviously never used them how do you expect to get answers?

if you've obviously never used them how do you expect to get answers?I expect to get answers by research because there is no way I'm going through the hassle of dropping a lot of money on a new crankset and putting the time in to install it when the claims are unsubstantiated and all I have to go by are video clips and customer testimonials. It just doesn't instill confidence in me to ever want to purchase something like that.

I expect to get answers by research because there is no way I'm going through the hassle of dropping a lot of money on a new crankset and putting the time in to install it when the claims are unsubstantiated and all I have to go by are video clips and customer testimonials. It just doesn't instill confidence in me to ever want to purchase something like that.
http://www.cyclingforums.com/member.php?userid=102804

You wouldn't buy a bike without test riding it so...ummmm...............why would you not try before you buy?

I did and most other people do - makes sense, especially for something like powercranks. Very few people just stump up cash without trying first - and those that don't try well....

PM Frank Day and find out if there's anyone near you or if there's a triathlon/trade show/demo near you and try them for free.

if you've obviously never used them how do you expect to get answers?

i've never used cigarettes, heroin, and various other things. I still know they're bad for me. why? because of research.

As OF states, without no control group and other good research this is nothing. i'd be interested in seeing more than just an abstract. For e.g., the complete methodology, and results.

When you add in Day's incredulous, and frankly daft claims (e.g., people can gain 35% in power or whatever daft figure it was) and because there has been no *significant* shift in the way people win bike races, it all seems lack a pack of lies (the 35% increase). A 35% increase that Day claimed (or still claims) would take me from a 2nd/3rd cat cyclist to top 10 or so in the TdF.

Presuming that Day has sold these cranks to average 2nd/3rd cats, you'd have expected a few of them to break through to the very highest echelons of cycle sport. They haven't.

Ric

i've never used cigarettes, heroin, and various other things. I still know they're bad for me. why? because of research.

As OF states, without no control group and other good research this is nothing. i'd be interested in seeing more than just an abstract. For e.g., the complete methodology, and results.

When you add in Day's incredulous, and frankly daft claims (e.g., people can gain 35% in power or whatever daft figure it was) and because there has been no *significant* shift in the way people win bike races, it all seems lack a pack of lies (the 35% increase). A 35% increase that Day claimed (or still claims) would take me from a 2nd/3rd cat cyclist to top 10 or so in the TdF.

Presuming that Day has sold these cranks to average 2nd/3rd cats, you'd have expected a few of them to break through to the very highest echelons of cycle sport. They haven't.

Ric

Thanks for the vote of support. However, whatever claims I make for the product regarding what our AVERAGE new user can expect to see in power increases, using them will not take you or anyone else from middle of the pack to winner of the TDF or any other major race, primarily because each of the winners of all three grand tours have trained at least some on PC's, as has the current World and Olympic champion. Using them can only give you the same training edge as these champions but it cannot vault you past them.

Cheers,

Frank

Thanks for the vote of support. However, whatever claims I make for the product regarding what our AVERAGE new user can expect to see in power increases, using them will not take you or anyone else from middle of the pack to winner of the TDF or any other major race, primarily because each of the winners of all three grand tours have trained at least some on PC's, as has the current World and Olympic champion. Using them can only give you the same training edge as these champions but it cannot vault you past them.

Cheers,

Frank

It was you who suggested that an average user was a 2nd or 3rd cat in our previous discussion. I haven't suggested i'd vault past them i specifically stated top 10.

So, have you now changed your 40% claim to the average user, who starts from an untrained or low level?

Strange, i've never seen a photo of the GT winners training on your cranks (and they've never reported using them in training as far as i'm aware). Maybe "some" means they tried them once or twice or at an Expo?

Still, there's others who you say train using your cranks, who i see training, and i've never seen them with your cranks.

ric

Thanks for the vote of support. However, whatever claims I make for the product regarding what our AVERAGE new user can expect to see in power increases, using them will not take you or anyone else from middle of the pack to winner of the TDF or any other major race, primarily because each of the winners of all three grand tours have trained at least some on PC's, as has the current World and Olympic champion. Using them can only give you the same training edge as these champions but it cannot vault you past them.

Cheers,

Frank
Frank-my threshold (60 minute max power) is 300 watts. A 35% improvement would take me to 395 watts. At my weight of 63 kilograms, that would bring me to 6.43 w/kg. Are you really claiming this is even remotely possible?

It was you who suggested that an average user was a 2nd or 3rd cat in our previous discussion. I haven't suggested i'd vault past them i specifically stated top 10.

So, have you now changed your 40% claim to the average user, who starts from an untrained or low level?

Strange, i've never seen a photo of the GT winners training on your cranks (and they've never reported using them in training as far as i'm aware). Maybe "some" means they tried them once or twice or at an Expo?

Still, there's others who you say train using your cranks, who i see training, and i've never seen them with your cranks.

ric

Most of our customers are pretty serious cyclists or triathletes looking to get better. Reported speed improvements range from less than one mph to over 5 mph with the vast majority seeing 2-3 mph in 6 months. Few of these riders have power meters but 2-3 mph speed improvement calculates to an approximate 40% power increase for most of these people. People who actually have power data are usually reporting somewhere between 20 to 60% power increases in 6 months.

I find it interesting that the fact that you haven't seen any of these top riders using them as evidence they do not. A couple of months ago we get a call from a pro who wants to get on them bcause his training partner is using them. We asked who his training partner was and he says Vinokurov! Of course, neither you or I have actually seen him on them (and he didn't get them from us as a sponsored athlete) so, of course, it is irrational to think someone of this ability would actually think my product worthwhile when someone of your emminence thinks it (an me) crazy. Then, a couple of months ago Tom Steels calls and orders 3 pair for teammates. Latest call we got (last week) from someone wanting to get on them is Baden Cooke. But, what does that mean? Nothing, apparently, to someone like you.

Cheers.

Frank

Frank-my threshold (60 minute max power) is 300 watts. A 35% improvement would take me to 395 watts. At my weight of 63 kilograms, that would bring me to 6.43 w/kg. Are you really claiming this is even remotely possible?

At that level I would guess 20% would be more likely in 6-9 months but you won't know until you try. We offer a 90 day moneyback guarantee. If it is a bunch of hooey send them back. We get about 2 in 1000 back under this guarantee.

Most of our customers are pretty serious cyclists or triathletes looking to get better. Reported speed improvements range from less than one mph to over 5 mph with the vast majority seeing 2-3 mph in 6 months. Few of these riders have power meters but 2-3 mph speed improvement calculates to an approximate 40% power increase for most of these people. People who actually have power data are usually reporting somewhere between 20 to 60% power increases in 6 months.


i love it. You really are nuts. 60% my arse (unless they were completely untrained to start with). have you been smoking crack?


I find it interesting that the fact that you haven't seen any of these top riders using them as evidence they do not. A couple of months ago we get a call from a pro who wants to get on them bcause his training partner is using them. We asked who his training partner was and he says Vinokurov! Of course, neither you or I have actually seen him on them (and he didn't get them from us as a sponsored athlete) so, of course, it is irrational to think someone of this ability would actually think my product worthwhile when someone of your emminence thinks it (an me) crazy. Then, a couple of months ago Tom Steels calls and orders 3 pair for teammates. Latest call we got (last week) from someone wanting to get on them is Baden Cooke. But, what does that mean? Nothing, apparently, to someone like you.

Cheers.

Frank

i've seen people who you suggest ride your cranks. i've never seen them with your cranks.

ric

At that level I would guess 20% would be more likely in 6-9 months but you won't know until you try. We offer a 90 day moneyback guarantee. If it is a bunch of hooey send them back. We get about 2 in 1000 back under this guarantee.

wow! on page 20, you were saying people at that level were getting on average 40%. by page 30, it'll be down to 10%.

Even at 20% the "average" user would be making such gains that it would affect bike racing significantly (assuming a few people have purchased these cranks).

ric

I am not a sports scientist, or a physiotherapist. I can see, however, some logic in the principle behind power cranks. I also see that it will bring minimal performance benefits. The quadriceps have the vast majority of the strength in your legs, they also pedal through the section of pedal stroke where the lever angle of your leg is at its most effective, eg between 2 and 3 oclock. I can see the value in training hamstrings, but they generate not nearly as much as your quadriceps and don't produce too much power on the 'up' stroke. PCs don't train your quadriceps any more than normal cranks, in theory they would train them less (not working against the dead weight of your leg, assuming you forget to relieve the weight during you pedal stroke at some point during a ride).

The claims by PC are a bit outrageous. I think proer periodisation and training plans would be of much greater benefits. The only reason I can see to use PC is to eliminate the minor deadspot at 6 and 12 o clock, which makes up about 20 degrees of your pedalstroke. Quads will always be a better place to train.

At that level I would guess 20% would be more likely in 6-9 months but you won't know until you try. We offer a 90 day moneyback guarantee. If it is a bunch of hooey send them back. We get about 2 in 1000 back under this guarantee.




Frank, your problem is you are attributing the 2 or 3 mph increase to improved muscle power output. The 2 or 3 mph increase may be genuine but it is due to the clever use of gravity for increased positive crank torque and elimination of all negative torque at little extra cost to the bodies required power output. This improvement might be even better if the users of PC's knew what their objectives were from the day they began using them.

Frank, your problem is you are attributing the 2 or 3 mph increase to improved muscle power output. The 2 or 3 mph increase may be genuine but it is due to the clever use of gravity for increased positive crank torque and elimination of all negative torque at little extra cost to the bodies required power output. This improvement might be even better if the users of PC's knew what their objectives were from the day they began using them.

Actually, I don't "attribute" the improvement most see to any specific mechanism as I don't know the relative weaknesses of each rider that PC's might address so it is not possible to know the specific mechanism(s) causing the improvement any one rider might see. The improvements usually seen are too large (as many here will tell you) to be accounted for by a single mechanism and to know what is really going on will require some scientific study. It doesn't stop me from guessing but I don't "know".

Phil Holman improved his track pursuit speed from 30 to 32 mph and his top speed from 35 to 38 mph in only 7 months. This improvement fits the speed improvement claim but "only" calculates to a little more than a 25% power increase. I can't tell you exactly what changes PC's made to allow him to see this improvement. There are several potential mechanisms; such as improving actual pedaling mechanical efficiency (demonstrated by the Luttrell study), increasing amount of muscle mass used (demonstrated by the Dixon study), or helping the rider choose a more efficient/powerful cadence. I expect each of these mechanisms is involved more or less to account for Phil's pretty remarkable improvement, depending upon which needed the most improvement in him, but I can't know.

Frank

Ive always imagined turning perfect circles when Im pedling trying to even out from left pedal to right pedal it seems to work for me I seem to pedal better like that. I guess it can be a mind game for pros most of the pros Ive talked to say perfect circles to even out the pedal stroke is the best way to go.

Ive always imagined turning perfect circles when Im pedling trying to even out from left pedal to right pedal it seems to work for me I seem to pedal better like that. I guess it can be a mind game for pros most of the pros Ive talked to say perfect circles to even out the pedal stroke is the best way to go.I was taught "push down, lift up" by a sprinter, who sometimes needed it just to stay in the pack until the finish, but I think spinners (like Jacques Anquetil, the only one I can think of for now) think in terms of perfect circles. I've found both techniques useful, depending on the road and the speed of the pack and what I was trying to do.

I was taught "push down, lift up" by a sprinter, who sometimes needed it just to stay in the pack until the finish, but I think spinners (like Jacques Anquetil, the only one I can think of for now) think in terms of perfect circles. I've found both techniques useful, depending on the road and the speed of the pack and what I was trying to do.


Anquetil was an apparent spinner but not a circular pedaller, his powerful linear style meant that unlike you, by using upper and lower body muscles he could spin the high gears. He did not push down, pull up or apply power in circles, mentally his pedalling was cone shaped.

On http://www.bases.org.uk/newsite/pdf/Abstract book etc.pdf, there is an interesting article:


Effect of pedaling technique on torque distribution and metabolic efficiency in cyclists

1Korff, T. 1Romer, 1L. Mayhew, I. And 2Martin, J.C.

1Centre for Sports Medicine and Human Performance, Brunel University, UK.

2 Department of Exercise and Sport Science, The University of Utah, USA.


From the abstract:
Pedaling technique had a significant effect on torque distribution, GE and EC (Table 1). Post hoc tests revealed that the ratio of mean and peak torque was greater during the “pulling up” condition when compared to the “pushing down” condition (Table 1), indicating that the torque was distributed more evenly during the pulling condition.
Post hoc tests, however, revealed that the participants were less efficient and less economical whilst pulling up compared to normal pedaling Results show that pulling up results in a more even distribution of crank torque while it decreases the gross efficiency and economy.

The same trend is seen when pedaling in circles (although it was not statistically significant). Bearing in mind that cycling coaches and coaching devices promote an even torque distribution throughout the crank cycle as more efficient, the results of the present study demonstrate that this coaching practice is questionable as it results in a decrease rather than in an increase of metabolic efficiency.

Anyone have readed the full article ?

Ale Martinez.

Anyone have readed the full article ?

Ale Martinez.[/QUOTE]



More of the same repetitive nonsense without a mention of the effective unweighting technique. You do not need research to prove that introducing pulling up into your pedalling style will eventually reduce power instead of increasing it. This is explained by the fact that your brain can only give total concentration to one task at a time. With unweighting the results will be positive because it can take place automatically and the brain can give total concentration to the downward power leg. Tests on riders who have done months of continuous training with Powercranks have confirmed this.