pealling push up push down

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Do you believe it could be possible for a person using your pedalling style to start pushing even sooner than you do now on the downstroke and if not, why not.Yes, in fact it is required since they are forced to push over the top.

Top and bottom (and a redirection of forces) is probably where the vast majority of the increase in power is coming from.

SWAMPY1970 does not agree with your predictions and you are the inventor.Well, that is his right. As I stated nobody knows for sure much about these things, except for the very happy users who know "for sure" the have worked "for them".

Yes, in fact it is required since they are forced to push over the top.

Top and bottom (and a redirection of forces) is probably where the vast majority of the increase in power is coming from.


You continue to make the same error, by doing as you say you lose power by delaying the start to your main downward stroke. You are wasting possible valuable vertical power application time by concentrating on this area, inertia takes care of these areas. Unweighting controls the timing of the start of your downstroke and that is where you should be concentrating and that is where the only advantage that PC's have to offer lies and that is only for those who do not already unweight their pedal at the finish of the downstroke. Instant unweighting transfers the effective weight of one leg to increase crank torque at the start of the earlier downstroke of the other leg.

You continue to make the same error, by doing as you say you lose power by delaying the start to your main downward stroke. You are wasting possible valuable vertical power application time by concentrating on this area, inertia takes care of these areas. Unweighting controls the timing of the start of your downstroke and that is where you should be concentrating and that is where the only advantage that PC's have to offer lies and that is only for those who do not already unweight their pedal at the finish of the downstroke. Instant unweighting transfers the effective weight of one leg to increase crank torque at the start of the earlier downstroke of the other leg.And this knowledge is coming from where? How much time have you spent training on them?

And this knowledge is coming from where? How much time have you spent training on them?



We could start with SWAMPY1970 and find out, when he refers to pushing sooner, does he mean pushing across the top and then consciously changing direction to a vertical downward force as you are suggesting. And if he means across the top, what % of total pedal stroke power is he applying in this upper area (and lower area).

We could start with SWAMPY1970 and find out, when he refers to pushing sooner, does he mean pushing across the top and then consciously changing direction to a vertical downward force as you are suggesting. And if he means across the top, what % of total pedal stroke power is he applying in this upper area (and lower area).
If those nice little muscles that have appeared on the top center of my thigh have anything to say about training with PC's, then I'd say that pushing across the top of the stroke is a skill that I've recently acquired and what's funny is that I'd classify it more as a long squeeze down than a push on the pedals. I can acutally visualize using my thighs as "long levers" now, not that I actually intended for that to happen, it just does.

As I've said in previous posts, I believe that I used to spend too much time thinking about 'pedaling in circles' and all that malarky, without actually pedalling in circles. I was so far from doing that despite believing that I was that it's not even funny.

Now I know I'm unweighting the 'rising pedal' I can concentrate purely on making things happen elsewhere. So rather than thinking about two lots of 360 degrees of pedal stroke I only need to worry about two lots of 200 degrees.

That said, I've recently acquired some weird medical issues so don't expect any updates within the next couple of weeks at least...

If those nice little muscles that have appeared on the top center of my thigh have anything to say about training with PC's, then I'd say that pushing across the top of the stroke is a skill that I've recently acquired and what's funny is that I'd classify it more as a long squeeze down than a push on the pedals. I can acutally visualize using my thighs as "long levers" now, not that I actually intended for that to happen, it just does.

As I've said in previous posts, I believe that I used to spend too much time thinking about 'pedaling in circles' and all that malarky, without actually pedalling in circles. I was so far from doing that despite believing that I was that it's not even funny.

Now I know I'm unweighting the 'rising pedal' I can concentrate purely on making things happen elsewhere. So rather than thinking about two lots of 360 degrees of pedal stroke I only need to worry about two lots of 200 degrees.

That said, I've recently acquired some weird medical issues so don't expect any updates within the next couple of weeks at least...

I hope you get those medical problems diagnosed and sorted out as fast as possible.
Do you have a clear understanding of what he is describing, Frank ?

I hope you get those medical problems diagnosed and sorted out as fast as possible.
Do you have a clear understanding of what he is describing, Frank ?Nope. He has some sort of intermittent problem impeding blood flow away from or blood flow back to the heart that is either positional or in the lower extremities, as near as I can tell. Why, is anyone's guess. All I know it is worthy of work-up. We have been "helping" him with this on another thread.

Nope. He has some sort of intermittent problem impeding blood flow away from or blood flow back to the heart that is either positional or in the lower extremities, as near as I can tell. Why, is anyone's guess. All I know it is worthy of work-up. We have been "helping" him with this on another thread.



I meant in his pedalling.

I meant in his pedalling.
I think he has some clue about my ramblings. You should ask the climber that won the prologue in the Dauphine yesterday, apparently he's used these darned cranks for a while too..... he probably has a clue as well.

I meant in his pedalling.regarding his pedaling, YES. Problem is if you haven[t really trained with them what he is talking about really cannot make any sense to you. You cannot comprehend what he is talking about.

regarding his pedaling, YES. Problem is if you haven[t really trained with them what he is talking about really cannot make any sense to you. You cannot comprehend what he is talking about.


It makes perfect sense to me but I was wondering what you believed he was describing. Come on Frank, explain it.

If those nice little muscles that have appeared on the top center of my thigh have anything to say about training with PC's, then I'd say that pushing across the top of the stroke is a skill that I've recently acquired and what's funny is that I'd classify it more as a long squeeze down than a push on the pedals. I can acutally visualize using my thighs as "long levers" now, not that I actually intended for that to happen, it just does.

As I've said in previous posts, I believe that I used to spend too much time thinking about 'pedaling in circles' and all that malarky, without actually pedalling in circles. I was so far from doing that despite believing that I was that it's not even funny.

Now I know I'm unweighting the 'rising pedal' I can concentrate purely on making things happen elsewhere. So rather than thinking about two lots of 360 degrees of pedal stroke I only need to worry about two lots of 200 degrees.

That said, I've recently acquired some weird medical issues so don't expect any updates within the next couple of weeks at least...

Do you make an effort to apply full tangential force to the crank as it passes through 1200 or are you pressing down at this time, that is in addition to the inertia and natural forward instinctive movement of the leg.

It makes perfect sense to me but I was wondering what you believed he was describing. Come on Frank, explain it.He was describing that he doesn't have to waste any more time thinking about whether he is "pedaling in circles" anymore (that is completely unweighting on the back stroke so he is doing at least some positive work around the complete circle as the PC's take care of that) and he can concentrate his efforts on the parts of the stroke where the real power is generated. The technique he uses in those areas is up to him as the PC's don't force anything particular there.

It is really not possible to concentrate on two different things at the same time. Taking away the need to think about the upstroke now allows the rider to pretty much concentrate on the 200º or so described by swampy of the real power phase of the power stroke. I think it important that, when learning this, the rider concentrate on the initiation of the power up to max power. The follow-through will continue naturally (so it is not necessary to concentrate on the entire 200º as then we would be back to trying to concentrate on both legs at the same time, an impossibility) while getting ready to think about the other leg coming into position to start this cycle on the other side.

Do you make an effort to apply full tangential force to the crank as it passes through 1200 or are you pressing down at this time, that is in addition to the inertia and natural forward instinctive movement of the leg.
I don't think there's anything 'instinctive' about wanting to push forward. Most people like to think they are, just like they 'think' they're pulling up on the pedals.

At that point I'm thinking about pushing forwards with the muscles on top of the thighs and starting to drag the pedal down with the hamstrings.

It seems to be more efficient to drag the pedal down with the hamstrings that it is the push for most of the first 180degrees with quads. Less burn - more speed.

Based on the fact that my calf muscles rarely hurt like they used too and I went through a period of my hamstrings burning like a Hawaiian lava flow, I'm starting to use the muscles that I should have been using all along. Given that I raced fairly competitively for years I found it (a) rather surprising and (b) rather infuriating. It's still a learning curve but thankfully the period of going slower whilst learning has passed...

I can't wait to get back on the bike!!!

He was describing that he doesn't have to waste any more time thinking about whether he is "pedaling in circles" anymore (that is completely unweighting on the back stroke so he is doing at least some positive work around the complete circle as the PC's take care of that) and he can concentrate his efforts on the parts of the stroke where the real power is generated. The technique he uses in those areas is up to him as the PC's don't force anything particular there.

It is really not possible to concentrate on two different things at the same time. Taking away the need to think about the upstroke now allows the rider to pretty much concentrate on the 200º or so described by swampy of the real power phase of the power stroke. I think it important that, when learning this, the rider concentrate on the initiation of the power up to max power. The follow-through will continue naturally (so it is not necessary to concentrate on the entire 200º as then we would be back to trying to concentrate on both legs at the same time, an impossibility) while getting ready to think about the other leg coming into position to start this cycle on the other side.



If he does not think of what he is doing or has to do, what will happen when he returns to normal cranks. As I see it, he has given up the idea of pedalling in circles and instead is using the perfect unweighting mashing style.
As he unweights he can simultaneously begin his downstroke to the fast moving upper crank because due to a slight pause in the inter action between brain and thigh/leg muscles, by the time this power reaches the pedal, the crank will be in a suitable position to avail of this early power application. That simple explanation is responsible for the failure of Rotorcranks because while the inventor believed that if he could move the upper crank forward past 12 o'c while the lower one was at 6 o'c, a rider could get an earlier start to his pedal stroke but the fact is because of this slight delay the crank will be in a suitable position for the earliest possible pedal stroke regardless of whether you use Rotorcranks or not. Vertical pedalling will always have this pause at the change over of legs, linear pedalling gets rid of it and can give continuous max power application.

If he does not think of what he is doing or has to do, what will happen when he returns to normal cranks. As I see it, he has given up the idea of pedalling in circles and instead is using the perfect unweighting mashing style.
As he unweights he can simultaneously begin his downstroke to the fast moving upper crank because due to a slight pause in the inter action between brain and thigh/leg muscles, by the time this power reaches the pedal, the crank will be in a suitable position to avail of this early power application. That simple explanation is responsible for the failure of Rotorcranks because while the inventor believed that if he could move the upper crank forward past 12 o'c while the lower one was at 6 o'c, a rider could get an earlier start to his pedal stroke but the fact is because of this slight delay the crank will be in a suitable position for the earliest possible pedal stroke regardless of whether you use Rotorcranks or not. Vertical pedalling will always have this pause at the change over of legs, linear pedalling gets rid of it and can give continuous max power application.I don't think he has given up the idea of pedaling in circles because he thinks he is. I think you are defining "pedaling in circles" differently than he or I do. How do you define pedaling in circles? Anyhow, the whole idea is, if he doesn't have to think about what he is doing on the PC's then, hopefully, when he returns to regular cranks, he will continue to pedal in the same style.

What you are describing as the "perfect unweighting mashing style" cannot apply to him because he was describing as conncentrating on applying power over 200º of the stroke, which would have to involve more than just the downward part of the stroke.

It is really not possible to concentrate on two different things at the same time. Taking away the need to think about the upstroke now allows the rider to pretty much concentrate on the 200º or so described by swampy of the real power phase of the power stroke. I think it important that, when learning this, the rider concentrate on the initiation of the power up to max power. The follow-through will continue naturally (so it is not necessary to concentrate on the entire 200º as then we would be back to trying to concentrate on both legs at the same time, an impossibility) while getting ready to think about the other leg coming into position to start this cycle on the other side.



Concentrating on two legs at the same time is not an impossible task, it depends on what the legs are doing. Here they are in the overlap as one leg is in the act of unweighting, the other is in the process of starting the downstroke. We don't know to what 200 deg. he is referring and what power or tangential effect is in every part of his pedal stroke.

Concentrating on two legs at the same time is not an impossible task, it depends on what the legs are doing. Here they are in the overlap as one leg is in the act of unweighting, the other is in the process of starting the downstroke. We don't know to what 200 deg. he is referring and what power or tangential effect is in every part of his pedal stroke.It is impossible to concentrate on two things at once. You can alternate concentration between the two legs to work on the top or bottom or any other part of the stroke for the two legs, but you cannot concentrate on the two legs doing two different things at the same time. It is simply impossible from the definition of the word.

It is impossible to concentrate on two things at once. You can alternate concentration between the two legs to work on the top or bottom or any other part of the stroke for the two legs, but you cannot concentrate on the two legs doing two different things at the same time. It is simply impossible from the definition of the word.


What I mean is you can concentrate on two different objectives at the same because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and in the case of unweighting it's positive and gives an increase in power to the upper pedal, where pulling up or circular pedalling is concerned this reaction gives negative results with a reduction in downward power as an attempt is made by the muscles to balance the power input of both legs. I also believe there is concentration and total concentration. Your understanding of unweighting is also different to mine, by unweighting I mean a conscious instant removal of leg weight off the pedal and neutral action after that with leg rising as it it does when walking or running. As for a circular pedalling definition. it's generally understood to be attempted tangential power application at all times to the crank throughout its 360 deg. revolution.