pealling push up push down

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If I only trained for 3 hours a week at anything I'd expect to see no improvement either.

Given my experience I'd expect them to be worse after 10 weeks - I know I was. It took at least 3 months (12 weeks :P ) before I was even able to seemingly train hard enough to call it training rather than "suffering through it"

Given that I took a forced 8 weeks off the bike recently, and also recently fitted a normal set of cranks on the bike, I can tell that my pedaling is still "powercrank" enhanced. I know I never used to pedal like this before...



But the group who did least training with PC's had best results. "Suffering through it", I am not surprised, after Frank's last statement on that other forum what else could you expect. All that unnecessary lifting etc. from 10 o'c to TDC with little or no benefit to the torque of the other leg and with the rising leg's muscles in lifting mode the thigh will be in a higher position as pedal passes through TDC, creating more resistance between stomach and thigh when riding in the aero racing drops position. With the mashing technique, inertia or momentum unconsciously takes care of this area and with lifting muscles in relaxed mode the thigh will be in a lower position through TDC, as the main power muscles are already preparing for an earlier (than the PC circular style) start to the all important downstroke. While with Anquetil's linear style, from 11 to TDC maximal tangential torque is already being applied to the crank as part of an extended 180 deg. main power stroke. How did you pedal before PC's, circular, mashing or no particular style ?

But the group who did least training with PC's had best results. "Suffering through it", I am not surprised, after Frank's last statement on that other forum what else could you expect. All that unnecessary lifting etc. from 10 o'c to TDC with little or no benefit to the torque of the other leg and with the rising leg's muscles in lifting mode the thigh will be in a higher position as pedal passes through TDC, creating more resistance between stomach and thigh when riding in the aero racing drops position. With the mashing technique, inertia or momentum unconsciously takes care of this area and with lifting muscles in relaxed mode the thigh will be in a lower position through TDC, as the main power muscles are already preparing for an earlier (than the PC circular style) start to the all important downstroke. While with Anquetil's linear style, from 11 to TDC maximal tangential torque is already being applied to the crank as part of an extended 180 deg. main power stroke. How did you pedal before PC's, circular, mashing or no particular style ?First, we don't actually have the study, all we have is an abstract. Second, what we do have is so awful and there are so many other problems with it that it is probably worthless.

First, we don't actually have the study, all we have is an abstract. Second, what we do have is so awful and there are so many other problems with it that it is probably worthless.



If a handcranker changed to a set of PC type hand cranks, would he increase power output ?

If a handcranker changed to a set of PC type hand cranks, would he increase power output ?Probably not, although some people think there might be an improvement. If there is it should be small. The reason I don't think there would be much benefit is we push and pull pretty well with our upper extremities. The upper extremities do not have an imbalance between the antigravity muscles and the other muscles because there are no antigravity muscles in the upper extremities.

But the group who did least training with PC's had best results. "Suffering through it", I am not surprised, after Frank's last statement on that other forum what else could you expect. All that unnecessary lifting etc. from 10 o'c to TDC with little or no benefit to the torque of the other leg and with the rising leg's muscles in lifting mode the thigh will be in a higher position as pedal passes through TDC, creating more resistance between stomach and thigh when riding in the aero racing drops position. With the mashing technique, inertia or momentum unconsciously takes care of this area and with lifting muscles in relaxed mode the thigh will be in a lower position through TDC, as the main power muscles are already preparing for an earlier (than the PC circular style) start to the all important downstroke. While with Anquetil's linear style, from 11 to TDC maximal tangential torque is already being applied to the crank as part of an extended 180 deg. main power stroke. How did you pedal before PC's, circular, mashing or no particular style ?
I thought I pedaled pretty much in circles.... "thought" being the operative word. Speaking of circles, I believe you've asked me this very question about a dozen times in this thread...

Your description of pedalling sounds like you should be knocking out 45 minute 25's every once in a while. Who says that the "PC Style" has to be perfectly circular? While I do push across the top, I tend to use my thigh as a lever, raising it high enough to just get away with mashing should I so desire. While it's hard to do whilst on the drops, it just something you just gotta 'sack up' and deal with.

Probably not, although some people think there might be an improvement. If there is it should be small. The reason I don't think there would be much benefit is we push and pull pretty well with our upper extremities. The upper extremities do not have an imbalance between the antigravity muscles and the other muscles because there are no antigravity muscles in the upper extremities.



The perfect circular hand crank rider can apply almost continuous max tangential torque to his cranks through the entire circle but if he used only one crank with the other arm in a fixed position for resistance purposes only, he could almost double the power output from that one working hand crank. This demonstrates that circular or PC pedalling is lacking in resistance. This is further demonstrated by the linear (Anquetil) technique which can avail of that same fixed arm resistance to increase leg crank power output. Once started the handcranker cannot tell whether or not he is using PC's, so if there is no difference in power application, how can they increase power output in either hand or leg crank pedalling.

The perfect circular hand crank rider can apply almost continuous max tangential torque to his cranks through the entire circle but if he used only one crank with the other arm in a fixed position for resistance purposes only, he could almost double the power output from that one working hand crank. This demonstrates that circular or PC pedalling is lacking in resistance. This is further demonstrated by the linear (Anquetil) technique which can avail of that same fixed arm resistance to increase leg crank power output. Once started the handcranker cannot tell whether or not he is using PC's, so if there is no difference in power application, how can they increase power output in either hand or leg crank pedalling.
How do you know that Anquetil had a 'linear' pedalling style? Because someone said so?

How do you know that Anquetil had a 'linear' pedalling style? Because someone said so?

I discovered the technique without ever having seen Anquetil in pedalling action and knew that it had many advantages especially where the lower back is concerned due to the combination of upper and lower body muscles in generating the pedal power. Some years later when Anquetil's video became available, I knew instantly from the pedalling footage that he was using the identical linear technique when he was at max power output, during the hour record attempt and nearing the end of that important time trial when he was under pressure from Poulidor.

I discovered the technique without ever having seen Anquetil in pedalling action and knew that it had many advantages especially where the lower back is concerned due to the combination of upper and lower body muscles in generating the pedal power. Some years later when Anquetil's video became available, I knew instantly from the pedalling footage that he was using the identical linear technique when he was at max power output, during the hour record attempt and nearing the end of that important time trial when he was under pressure from Poulidor.
Please demonstrate this wonderous pedaling style. Enlighten us...

Please demonstrate this wonderous pedaling style. Enlighten us...
There's an 8 part series on You Tube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXCQCMo_n34&feature=related)

I dunno. It sure looks like his feet go round and round in circles to me...

Dave

There's an 8 part series on You Tube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXCQCMo_n34&feature=related)

I dunno. It sure looks like his feet go round and round in circles to me...

Dave


Being attached to the pedals they have to, but unlike the 'Fosbury Flop', it's in what the invisible muscles are doing that the all important undetectable secret lies.

it's in what the invisible muscles are doing that the all important undetectable secret lies.
Undetectable secret? If I can't measure it's effectiveness, I don't care about it.

Dave

Being attached to the pedals they have to, but unlike the 'Fosbury Flop', it's in what the invisible muscles are doing that the all important undetectable secret lies.If the secret is undetectable, how do you know that Anquetil is doing what you think he is doing?

If the secret is undetectable, how do you know that Anquetil is doing what you think he is doing?

That's correct undetectable which means it cannot be copied. There is only one way that maximal power can be applied to the cranks as they pass through 12 o'c when in a seated TT position. Anquetil knew it, I know it, once you discover it you can tell if someone else is using it. While the lower body muscle action of this technique is concealed, the upper body action is visible. Proof of this can be found in that Anquetil video when his manager Geminiani demonstrates the pulling and pushing action of the arms used by Anquetil in the last stage of that famous Double. If he had used "Scott Rake" bars, his power output would have been even greater.

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If the secret is undetectable, how do you know that Anquetil is doing what you think he is doing?
*cough*

"I canny take anymore Captain" - Scotty.

http://www.ericrasmussen.com/uploaded_images/bullshit%20detector-782707.jpg

*cough*

"I canny take anymore Captain" - Scotty.

I thought I would post this that we just received the demonstrates the difference between the actual measured pedal forces around the circle between someone riding regular cranks and someone trained on and riding PowerCranks.

Note a few things.

Both riders are generating 250 watts.

The reg crank rider is riding at 88 rpm compared to the PC rider at 81 rpm. One would expect the "pushing" forces to be less at a higher RPM but they are actually greater due to the need to overcome the negative forces on the backstroke.

Pedaling in circles does not mean pulling up with an equal force compared to the pushing force. It means keeping some positive force around the entire circle.

Here is the graph:
http://i37.tinypic.com/35nc5g2.jpg

I thought I would post this that we just received the demonstrates the difference between the actual measured pedal forces around the circle between someone riding regular cranks and someone trained on and riding PowerCranks.

Note a few things.

Both riders are generating 250 watts.

The reg crank rider is riding at 88 rpm compared to the PC rider at 81 rpm. One would expect the "pushing" forces to be less at a higher RPM but they are actually greater due to the need to overcome the negative forces on the backstroke.

Pedaling in circles does not mean pulling up with an equal force compared to the pushing force. It means keeping some positive force around the entire circle.

Here is the graph:
http://i37.tinypic.com/35nc5g2.jpg




Take note of how in both cases the leg is eager to start applying force at around 11 o'clock, a simple biomechanical adjustment can convert that attempt at minimal force application into an instant maximal tangential force equivalent to that around 3 o'clock.

Take note of how in both cases the leg is eager to start applying force at around 11 o'clock, a simple biomechanical adjustment can convert that attempt at minimal force application into an instant maximal tangential force equivalent to that around 3 o'clock.You can't even describe your "ideal" pedal force pattern let alone what you actually do (or think you do). When you actually show us your pedal force pattern and how it compares to your "ideal" perhaps we will all be able to understand what you are talking about.

You can't even describe your "ideal" pedal force pattern let alone what you actually do (or think you do). When you actually show us your pedal force pattern and how it compares to your "ideal" perhaps we will all be able to understand what you are talking about.
It's a secret... *wink*

... a secret to everyone apart from the Guinness Gremlins.