pealling push up push down

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That smart ankle action sounds alot like scraping mud off the bottom of the shoe action we spoke of earlier. But each leg still has a dead spot on the entire up stoke.

I think we can summarise that no technique is best for everyone but only the technique that you have trained for and when the terrain and situation is correct.

Just to throw in my personal experience as an amateur, i have found that the method of making large circles works well to reduce fatigue, especially on long rides. i did the houston-austin MS-150 this spring and on the first 100 mile day I would periodically take spinning breaks, really focusing on on keeping my RPMs at 90 or above, but when I was leading a pace line cruising along at 24mph I did end up "mashing" a bit more than I should have been, but I am working on my form and efficiency when I am really pushing myself. Either way, it's those long spinning "big circle" breaks where I really concentrate on my pedaling motion that really seem to help reduce muscle fatigue and allow me to keep my ave. speed up over longer distances. that's very unscientific, I know, but that's what I have found.

As a side note, on that ride, for some reason the second 80 mile my legs felt much much better than the first day and I ended up leading our group's pace line for 20 minutes or more at a time. It was a really great feeling and I was happy to pull for so long. Everyone kept joking that I must have taken something that morning.

I'm a recreational rider and I dont care about the science so much as realizing I'm just a whimpy engine on my machine and to make it go I have to put out power as efficiently as possible. I have three techniques basically and if you were to look at me pedalling you can't see a difference. My unconscious technique has me,"mashing the pedals," so to speak. My next technique is what I call the, "circle." When I switch from mash to circle, at the same apparent effort I gain a couple of miles per hour in speed. In trying to perfect the circle I imagine the edges of my feet are connected to the cranks and I am rotating the cranks at a steady rate. I let my brain figure out which muscles fire when.

My third technique I call the piston technique. I'm actively pulling up with the rear leg while mashing down with the forward leg. This lets me use muscle groups slightly differently than my mashing technique. When I climb I definately am pulling up because I unweight the bottoms of my feet and put pressure on the tops on the pull stroke and I rotate my ankle up a bit on the pull.

I notice in myself from foot fatigue that if I am unconsciously mashing I'm actually pushing my rear leg up with my front leg. The rear leg is resting while the front leg is doing all the work. I notice this because the bottoms of my feet will begin to burn. When I consciously switch to spinning my feet are moving around in my shoes, ever so slightly.

Late in a long ride, when I am tired, I switch to the piston technique. I find more energy in muscles that have not been fully fatigued. The bottom line is when we ride we try improve our technique so as to not waste power in moving a lazy leg with the forward leg such as I do when I am mashing. Mashing has it's place, though for it helps develop strength in the muscles.

There, I put my two cents in without seeing if anyone else has said essentially the same thing. Me is bad.



AFAIK the jury us still very much out as to whether 'smooth' pedalling is any better than mashing. For example, attempting to apply force at 12 and 6 o'clock might very well be simply using up precious energy doing a job which is alredy being done by other forces (inertia). In one of the few really good studies on this subject, the very best (elite national-class) cyclists actually made less of an effort to pull up than did those of a lower standard. However I wouldn't jump to any conclusions; what I certainly *wouldn't* assume is that people who claim that smooth pedalling is *definitely* better have any more idea than the guys who are actually investigating this stuff. It's a very complex issue.
Personally I'm going to keep pedalling whatever way seems most natural until someone actually demonstrates that there is a better way of doing things.:)

L.
:)

I'll throw my two cents in also, while not reading the entire thread either ;)

I've been doing these sprint rides 1 night per week with a local group, and there's one ex professional on the ride usually. I learned from him that pulling up as you push down during a sprint is absolutely key. Other than that, I wouldn't bet that you want to focus on anything other than the pedal stroke that gives you the most comfort, efficiency, and speed for the task at hand. Just my opinion, I only see a need to push down/pull up in a sprint, mash for a very short time when you have to speed up quickly (and don't have time to shift perhaps), and do the unweighting of the foot coming up at most other times during a ride/race. I'm not sure if I'm describing this well, but I'm a high cadence rider (95-105 usually), so my opinion could be biased towards the fact that I trained myself that way and don't really have experience riding in a mashing style or in a pull/push style that much.:)

practice peadling invtervals at a very high cadence (around 120-130) twice a week. Do 4x4 min intervals with full reco between each (HR does not matter for this skills drill). if you do this, you will learn to pedal more efficinantly in a circle rather then pedaling by pushing "up and down"

I'd like to add a view point from a novice cyclist.

I started cycling last year at the ripe old age of 53. This year I have been fine tuning my training. Due to my schedule I can only ride 60-80 mpw. I have added weight training and it has helped me significantly, especially my legs. I have more power with less effort. My hill climbing has improved. My recovery rate has improved. I have also discovered the benefits of "push/pull". It does take some practice and I'm still getting my leg muscles conditioned to it.

:D

http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Anatomy/Graphics/calves-anatomy.jpg

Questions to consider :confused:
1) Can you pull up faster than you can push down?
2) Is the peddle stroke actually a perfect circle?
3) If you are tired and still have 50 miles to go -will you train yourself to do something other than what muscle would do naturally anyway?
4) If standing up to peddle means that you will not have to unclete and put a foot down will you?
5) Does actively making your toes point down require more energy then just allowing your gastrocnemius and soleus to get around a peddle stroke - if so what could you be using that energy for?
6) Why in the hell do we have hip flexors and what do they do for us in the peddle stoke?
7) And who is this guy named Ed Burke and what about that book he wrote with other notables called “High Tech Cycling”?
Seat Time

As you gain experience pedaling you'll find that your pedalling techique will evolve.
The push down comes easiest and is second nature to everyone. The next part of the stroke your likely to develope is the pull back at the bottom of the pedal stroke.
The last thing i developed was the push over the top of the stroke. I have read studies that have stated that no matter what you do your never going to create power in the last 90 degrees of the pedal stroke just before you get to the top. But by lifting your knees as high as they can go you'll find that you are going to naturally push over the top in the 12 o'clock position. For me this inceased by cadence by about 8 rpms and my wattage output by about 15 watts at no increase in heart rate.
A free 15 watts of power at less muscle fatigue.
Viola!
Eric

[QUOTE=ric_stern/RST]but not for anyone (in ECP) who is trained. In fact "muscle growth" (increase in muscle cross sectional area) in ECP is likely to be detrimental



again, there's no evidence to support this. i know more people who are injured in the gym or cross training than from any other modality



there isn't any evidence to support this notion (that pulling up increases performance). what we do know is that better cyclists either push down more or pulling up makes no difference.


i think you should all shut up and listen to what ric has to say he is obviously very qualified and the best way to improve is to ride...hard.

It means more like pulling up, it can only be done if u have straps on your pedals or u have clipless pedals and have a pair of cycling shoes with cleats. Anyways pulling up is where you pull up on the pedal with your legs so you are making a complete circle with the pedal, you want to use both legs all the time. It might sound like it takes more work to do that but it makes it alot easier to pedal. Your pedaling will be much more efficant, you can do drills on an indoor trainer to find the dead spots in your stroke and then work to improve that.

I'm definitely not more powerful using the pull up technique. But when I'm in a group of riders drafting, I will use this technique to conserve energy and that is all. If I'm looking for power its at 11oclock - 5 oclock for me. sometimes seems like 10oclock being pushed up over the top and down to 5oclock. It keeps a continuous motion, by the time your right foot is down to 5 oclock your left foot is at 11oclock already pushing across. No deadspots. Each type of stroke has a time and a place for me.

I'm definitely not more powerful using the pull up technique. But when I'm in a group of riders drafting, I will use this technique to conserve energy and that is all. If I'm looking for power its at 11oclock - 5 oclock for me. sometimes seems like 10oclock being pushed up over the top and down to 5oclock. It keeps a continuous motion, by the time your right foot is down to 5 oclock your left foot is at 11oclock already pushing across. No deadspots. Each type of stroke has a time and a place for me.





What effect does the aerobar TT position have on your pedalling ?

What effect does the aerobar TT position have on your pedalling ? I don't use aero bars, so I couldn't tell you from that experience. I live in the mountains of North Georgia(U.S.), so really I have no use for them, just way to dangerous. All of the riding around here has steep climbing and descending. I do, on the other hand, ride a very low stretched out position. Closest I could compare to aerobars would be using barends(MTB) while riding up long steep grades on gravel roads . I move closer to the tip of the saddle to get the most out of my power. Use arms and upper body strength to stabilize hips/torso to generate more downward force. I am always faster powering big gears compared to high rpm spinning. When I do spin high cadence, I get to the top less wore out but my time always suffers. This doesn't work for everyone, I know. I'm a fairly lightweight smaller framed cyclist(135 lbs).

I don't use aero bars, so I couldn't tell you from that experience. I live in the mountains of North Georgia(U.S.), so really I have no use for them, just way to dangerous. All of the riding around here has steep climbing and descending. I do, on the other hand, ride a very low stretched out position. Closest I could compare to aerobars would be using barends(MTB) while riding up long steep grades on gravel roads . I move closer to the tip of the saddle to get the most out of my power. Use arms and upper body strength to stabilize hips/torso to generate more downward force. I am always faster powering big gears compared to high rpm spinning. When I do spin high cadence, I get to the top less wore out but my time always suffers. This doesn't work for everyone, I know. I'm a fairly lightweight smaller framed cyclist(135 lbs).






You do not say what type of rider you are, mtb or road racer/tt or fitness only. If you use a normal RR bike, do you get more power when in the drops or on the hoods. When your foot is in the 11, 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 position what is your shoe/pedal position, (i.e.) is it level or in the toe down or heel down position. When applying maximum seated power, do you use vertical pedal pressure ? If you were to use aerobars, leaving the aerodynamic factor aside, would they be more of a hindrance than a help ?

You do not say what type of rider you are, mtb or road racer/tt or fitness only. If you use a normal RR bike, do you get more power when in the drops or on the hoods. When your foot is in the 11, 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 position what is your shoe/pedal position, (i.e.) is it level or in the toe down or heel down position. When applying maximum seated power, do you use vertical pedal pressure ? If you were to use aerobars, leaving the aerodynamic factor aside, would they be more of a hindrance than a help ?MTB Racer, spent alot of time on the road, fast paced group riding. I do get more power laid down pulling from the hoods than being in the drops. Toe down but not exagerated. Honestly, I caught myself not too long ago applying more horizontal pressure than anything. So much so, that I was pushing through the front of my shoe. :eek: I also noticed that my foot was kind of floating in my shoe. No pressure at all on the floor of the shoe, all pressure was toward the front cramming my toes and ball of my foot. I eventually became aware of this and starting applying an across the top and then down motion. The power I gained was very noticeable. Pains I used to get like lower back and hip have gone away since using this method. I would say the aero bars would help, I use my arms to stabilize my body, when pushing hard. Gives me a platform to push off. When doing a leg press, you have the back of the seat to push off of and handles to hold and pull on. Take away the back of the seat and the handles and you're not getting much done. Your body needs a ceiling to push the power off of, or we just become weight and gravity.

MTB Racer, spent alot of time on the road, fast paced group riding. I do get more power laid down pulling from the hoods than being in the drops. Toe down but not exagerated. Honestly, I caught myself not too long ago applying more horizontal pressure than anything. So much so, that I was pushing through the front of my shoe. :eek: I also noticed that my foot was kind of floating in my shoe. No pressure at all on the floor of the shoe, all pressure was toward the front cramming my toes and ball of my foot. I eventually became aware of this and starting applying an across the top and then down motion. The power I gained was very noticeable. Pains I used to get like lower back and hip have gone away since using this method. I would say the aero bars would help, I use my arms to stabilize my body, when pushing hard. Gives me a platform to push off. When doing a leg press, you have the back of the seat to push off of and handles to hold and pull on. Take away the back of the seat and the handles and you're not getting much done. Your body needs a ceiling to push the power off of, or we just become weight and gravity.




If what you say is true, you are very close to the technique that was used by Anquetil but your style would need some changes before it could be called the identical technique. With the perfect style, you get maximum power when in the drops and in the most aerodynamic and lowest upper body position, you feel as if you are floating over the bike with generated power flowing through the body between bars and pedals. Also aerobars would be more of a hindrance than a help.

If what you say is true, you are very close to the technique that was used by Anquetil but your style would need some changes before it could be called the identical technique. With the perfect style, you get maximum power when in the drops and in the most aerodynamic and lowest upper body position, you feel as if you are floating over the bike with generated power flowing through the body between bars and pedals. Also aerobars would be more of a hindrance than a help. I don't know anything about Anquetil's style, never seen footage of him on a bike. I do know about this floating sensation though. On short steep roller's, when powering to keep momentum uphill, I am barely on the seat (but not standing).This is something that had started when I added the down part of the stroke. As far as the aerobars are concerned, I never used them before, so I don't know how it feels. I do, however; pull like a madman on bar ends(MTB). Not sure if it is a similar style Anquetil or not, I just know that I generate more power pedaling this way.

i tried searching all over for what the push up part of proper pedalling mans but to no avail. I do not comprehend what the pushing up part is, i.e. what do youpush up???? Some help would be appreciated as I have searched all over and cant seem to comprehend what pushing up is, i can understand what pushing down is though
Indeed to optimally tune one's sequence of pushing & pulling along the full circle of a pedal stroke, it would be ideal to verify on a power meter (Watts) how different styles affect the total power that one can generate. Unfortunately bycicle power meter are very expensive (in excess of 1000 USD).
However thare is a a new cyclocomputer with road gradient indication (www.clino.it (http://www.clino.it), based on a microaccelerometer), which, for about 1/10 the cost, is also capable of measuring power, albeit only on uphill stretches of road. To me this is not a serious limitation, as I am anyway able to test how much power my body can generate, and I do not really care whether I can do this only while cycling uphill ... that's sufficient to verify my training fitness and how much power I can deliver for different styles of pedalling. I am using it in combination with a conventional Heart Rate Monitor, so that I can even cross-correlate BPMs with generated Watts !
OK, that I can do this only while riding uphill might be a limitation, but at 1/10 the cost I do not mind at all, it's just a great instrument !

Somehow I stumbled across this thread and felt I had something to offer. Some of you know me from other forums, most notably Slowtwitch. To those who do not know me I am the inventor of PowerCranks. PowerCranks are independent cranks that force the user to, at a minimum, completely unweight on the upstroke. Our data suggests that the typical user will gain 40% in power, at least for reasonable distances (40K or so), after 6 to 9 months of exclusive use (it takes quite awhile to change things). Independent studies have shown cycling efficiency improvements of 10% in only 6 weeks or 3 times a week use. So, it does seem from this data that the "circular" pedaling style can make a difference in regards to to power potential of the athlete.

But, that is not what I am mostly interested in talking about here. It is clear to me that most of you don't have a clue where cycling power and forces on the pedals are coming from. Those who think style doesn't make a difference cite the Coyle study, which has many significant flaws when it comes to showing what these people purport that it shows. They say that the stronger cyclists don't pull up and that the only thing that matters is how much one pushes down. B.S.

Let's look at the basics of where these forces come from. On the downstroke, there are two sources of downward pedal forces. The pushing muscles are, of course, one. But the passive weight of the thigh is another. When the thigh is lifted on the backstroke, potential energy is put into it which is recovered on the downstroke. If Coyle did not account for the mass differences of the thighs in the riders in his study (which he did not) he cannot say who is pushing harder and who is not.

By the same token, as long as the backward forces on the upstroke are less than those that would come from a flacid leg (which they are in everyone) then everyone is "pulling up" on the backstroke, they just are not doing so enough to completely unweight the pedal. But, everyone is putting the same amount of potential energy into the upward moving thigh. This energy must come from muscles pulling the leg up or from forces of the downward moving leg being diverted from the wheel to push the leg up, or a combination of the two. A person with a more massive thigh must pull up "harder" to achieve the same negative force on the pedal as someone with a smaller thigh even though if one were to look just at the pedal forces one would think he was not pulling up at all or equally. While he may not be driving the bicycle directly at this point in time he does get this energy back on the downstroke (when the potential energy he puts in is recovered) so it does contribute to driving the bicycle, whether it is obvious or not.

Anyhow, I thought I would try to clarify this misconception of what pushing and pulling means and how it relates to cycling efficiency.

Frank Day
PowerCranks

Somehow I stumbled across this thread and felt I had something to offer. Some of you know me from other forums, most notably Slowtwitch. To those who do not know me I am the inventor of PowerCranks. PowerCranks are independent cranks that force the user to, at a minimum, completely unweight on the upstroke. Our data suggests that the typical user will gain 40% in power, at least for reasonable distances (40K or so), after 6 to 9 months of exclusive use (it takes quite awhile to change things). Independent studies have shown cycling efficiency improvements of 10% in only 6 weeks or 3 times a week use. So, it does seem from this data that the "circular" pedaling style can make a difference in regards to to power potential of the athlete.

But, that is not what I am mostly interested in talking about here. It is clear to me that most of you don't have a clue where cycling power and forces on the pedals are coming from. Those who think style doesn't make a difference cite the Coyle study, which has many significant flaws when it comes to showing what these people purport that it shows. They say that the stronger cyclists don't pull up and that the only thing that matters is how much one pushes down. B.S.

Let's look at the basics of where these forces come from. On the downstroke, there are two sources of downward pedal forces. The pushing muscles are, of course, one. But the passive weight of the thigh is another. When the thigh is lifted on the backstroke, potential energy is put into it which is recovered on the downstroke. If Coyle did not account for the mass differences of the thighs in the riders in his study (which he did not) he cannot say who is pushing harder and who is not.

By the same token, as long as the backward forces on the upstroke are less than those that would come from a flacid leg (which they are in everyone) then everyone is "pulling up" on the backstroke, they just are not doing so enough to completely unweight the pedal. But, everyone is putting the same amount of potential energy into the upward moving thigh. This energy must come from muscles pulling the leg up or from forces of the downward moving leg being diverted from the wheel to push the leg up, or a combination of the two. A person with a more massive thigh must pull up "harder" to achieve the same negative force on the pedal as someone with a smaller thigh even though if one were to look just at the pedal forces one would think he was not pulling up at all or equally. While he may not be driving the bicycle directly at this point in time he does get this energy back on the downstroke (when the potential energy he puts in is recovered) so it does contribute to driving the bicycle, whether it is obvious or not.

Anyhow, I thought I would try to clarify this misconception of what pushing and pulling means and how it relates to cycling efficiency.

Frank Day
PowerCranks
So why does it make a difference weather your upward-moving thigh is pulled up by that leg or by the downward force of the opposite leg?

I'd love to believe in your product, because a 40% gain would turn me (and many other average competive cyclists) into tour-winning shape.