View Full Version : Yet another reason that carbon fiber sucks...
Yet another reason that carbon fiber sucks...
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.From the article you reference: "His research suggests that repeated journeys to and from the sub-zero temperatures found at cruising altitude causes a build-up of condensation inside composites, and separation of the carbon fibre layers as this moisture freezes and thaws." I wouldn't expect this to be a problem with bicycle frames, would you? How many TI airplane components have you seen?
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.
I agree with Rockitj...the circumstances are completely different and perhaps aviation is not one of those applications that is ideal for carbon. Stop paying all that money for carbon bikes if you hate them that much.
Yes, aviation is a great application for CF materials, but it requires different inspection tools and techniques. All aircraft are subject to inspections of key structural elements to ensure safety. As the article states, special equipment and trained inspectors may be needed to properly inspect composite panels. Ultrasonic and x-ray are two methods used for high-stress areas.
Metal parts on aircraft and bikes, crack and fail too, whether they are Ti, steel or AL.
Issue here isn't the materials, but proper design for the expected loads. When un-intended loads occur, for whatever reason, bad things can happen. A good example was the failure of the CF wishbone on Raikonen's F1 car yesterday. The cause of the failure really wasn't the CF part at all, but the flat-spotted, out of balance tire.
Yes, aviation is a great application for CF materials, but it requires different inspection tools and techniques. All aircraft are subject to inspections of key structural elements to ensure safety. As the article states, special equipment and trained inspectors may be needed to properly inspect composite panels. Ultrasonic and x-ray are two methods used for high-stress areas.
Metal parts on aircraft and bikes, crack and fail too, whether they are Ti, steel or AL.
Issue here isn't the materials, but proper design for the expected loads. When un-intended loads occur, for whatever reason, bad things can happen. A good example was the failure of the CF wishbone on Raikonen's F1 car yesterday. The cause of the failure really wasn't the CF part at all, but the flat-spotted, out of balance tire.
Actually, I was trying to add a bit of sarcasm to Donut's argument......
Indeed, and the wishbone that Kimi lost didn't actually break. It was the attachment point to the car which would be a combination of carbon fibre and metal.
But yes, comparing cars, bikes and airplanes seems very silly indeed. My bike is Al with carbon fibre forks and the roads are very rough were I bike. Yet, I have no failures. My old steel bikes are rusty though.
lohsnest: OK, missed it. The article that IronDonut cites mentions the need for different inspections for CF panels; it doesn't suggest at all that CF is wrong material. Ultrasonic and x-ray inspections are used on critical aerospace composites, but obviously Airbus and the airline didn't feel they were needed before the failure.
TKOS: Good point on Kimi. I did notice on TV the break seemed to be at the inboard mounting, as the CF wishbone looked to be in one piece. My point was just to point out that the failure was due to an unintended load, and not the fault of the CF part.
Hey, both my old steel bikes have rust also....we must live in humid environs. Thats one reason I wanted to go with an AL/CF frame this time.
Remember the Alaska Airlines flight that crashed into the Pacific, when the jackscrew to adjust the elevator incidence stripped?
Titanium jackscrew...
Any material can fail.
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.
Remember the Alaska Airlines flight that crashed into the Pacific, when the jackscrew to adjust the elevator incidence stripped?
Titanium jackscrew...
Any material can fail.
Well, almost. The crash was a result of inadequate lubrication of the jackscrew assy, which lead to failure of threads on the jackscrew....so you're mostly right. A friend of mine is a lead engineer at Boing Aerospace, on the MD-8x (-80,-81,...,-83) product line, so people in my cabal got an up close and personal perspective on the issue from the Boing point of view. Said friend was emotionally devastated by the incident, even though Alaska Airlines bore the brunt of the blame because of their lengthened maintenance intervals that lead to the problem.
Still, your point is salient: Ti, the wonder material that might save humanity, failed. You'd think with its stellar fatigue properties that it could never fail, right Ferrous Dognut?
Still, your point is salient: Ti, the wonder material that might save humanity, failed. You'd think with its stellar fatigue properties that it could never fail, right Ferrous Dognut?
He knows nothing of material science. Ever since his dad bought him a litespeed he has started several threads about CF sucking and how he broke 4 frames and so did all of his freinds...Now Ti is the ticket for him. :rolleyes:
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.
FWIW my first road bike was a Litespeed Natchez. It is a POS noodle. When I got a "cheap" Caad 4 Cannondale frameset I couldn't believe how much better I could sprint and power up short hills. It isn't because Ti sucks and Al is great, it is because the Natchez is a cheap frame with straight gauge tubing. All materials have charachteristics that can be pro or con depending on situation... when a part fails or performs poorly it isn't because of the material, but because of the design (or defect, etc.).
Ugh, another one of these silly threads.
I think I'll go pretend I have 4 friends with broken Ti frames so I can bash that to death.
Just don't buy any bamboo frames - I hear they get invaded by the dreaded Downtube Beetle.
Ugh, another one of these silly threads.
I think I'll go pretend I have 4 friends with broken Ti frames so I can bash that to death.
The German EFBe website is the only source I've found for actual fatigue test results.
http://damonrinard.com/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm
Note the failure photos of the Ti and steel frames in the same test cycle that several lighter AL frames completed. Also, if you click back to the home page, you'll find an updated listing of frame results from Mar 2005.
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.
That's it - you've convinced me. From now on, I shall restrict my speed and altitude to below 500mph and 35000 feet at all times.
Phew! Dodged a bullet there!
Ritch
The German EFBe website is the only source I've found for actual fatigue test results.
http://damonrinard.com/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm
Note the failure photos of the Ti and steel frames in the same test cycle that several lighter AL frames completed. Also, if you click back to the home page, you'll find an updated listing of frame results from Mar 2005.
Hey that's a great article, thanks. I'm surprised the Merlin Ti frame broke, actually. I had always pictured them as being pretty bulletproof.
Another carbon fiber failure;
http://www.compositesnews.com/cni.asp?articleID=7817
Don't remember any metal rudders falling off....
You carbon fiber frame guys are such suckers.
"Lance rides it." Lance gets as many free bike as he wants...
Ti for life.
Yea, This is a huge problem for cycling. I am seriously thinking about replacing the CF rudder assembly on my Bike with a metal one for safty reasons.
Can someone help me figure out where the Jack Screw thing is on my bike:confused:
;):D
FWIW my first road bike was a Litespeed Natchez. It is a POS noodle. When I got a "cheap" Caad 4 Cannondale frameset I couldn't believe how much better I could sprint and power up short hills. It isn't because Ti sucks and Al is great, it is because the Natchez is a cheap frame with straight gauge tubing. All materials have charachteristics that can be pro or con depending on situation... when a part fails or performs poorly it isn't because of the material, but because of the design (or defect, etc.).
You can build a noodle frame out of butted tubing too. But that only goes to underscore your point about a material only being as good as its application.
You can build a noodle frame out of butted tubing too. But that only goes to underscore your point about a material only being as good as its application.
I did muddy the water there... you can have a stiff frame with straight gage tubing too... but yeah the only thing I meant to imply is that material is only as good as its application.
Remember the Alaska Airlines flight that crashed into the Pacific, when the jackscrew to adjust the elevator incidence stripped?
Titanium jackscrew...
Any material can fail.
¿ remember the japanese 747 that crashed into a mountain because there was a leak from the toilet at the rear of the aircraft and the urine rotted the rear pressure wall and caused an explosive depressurisation that broke the connections to the rudder and elevators ? plane just flew in circles until it hit something .
anything can fail and sometimes in the most unimaginable way , I mean a leaky toilet !! :confused:
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