My experience with drugs and blood doping

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Go to the endurance board on this site.....the rest is for body builders.

I don't think we should discourage those riders with experience with EPO, test., etc. from speaking up and detailing their exposure/use.

An important point I took away from Timan's thread is that, even with drug use, the risk far outweighs the gain in the vast majority of riders. Even with the best drugs, there are still no guarantees- the truth is, for a rider to earn big income from cycling and make drug use "worth it," I would guess the rider must already full of supernatural riding skill. I simply don't believe that these drugs could even turn a high level/mid-pack rider into a sprinting Superman - the numbers don't bear it out. I mean, a gain of 60 watts on 350 watts of power might mean, maybe 1.8 or even 2 mph sustainable per 40k. Don't get me wrong, those are great numbers- but pro TT numbers??? Worth heart failure???

I've always said that I hope the pro peloton is totally clean - and left it at that. The reality is that, whether they dope or not, they are absolute rulers of the sport and are unbelievable to watch. Call them cheaters if you want - but watching them never fails to get me on that bike.

If Timan was so forthcoming why is he avoiding answering my questions? His attitude indicated that he wanted to share, but his reality is that he doesn't. Sounds like someone else we used to know, without the threats and accusations of doping and selling dope.

House: and I'm not trying to start any argument or even take any side on the issue - again, the only thing I assert is that I hope very much that the pro's are supernatural and clean.

I understand the issues of proof, etc., but in your personal opinion, do you believe the overwhelming majority of riders in the pro peloton are clean?

House: and I'm not trying to start any argument or even take any side on the issue - again, the only thing I assert is that I hope very much that the pro's are supernatural and clean.

I understand the issues of proof, etc., but in your personal opinion, do you believe the overwhelming majority of riders in the pro peloton are clean? An overwhelming majority? I don't know, I'd like to think so, but I am not sure. I know for sure that there is a large amount of riders in the pro peloton who are clean. I had the great furtune of beginning my racing career with Kevin Livingston and through him and later down the road others I got to know. (I have no problem giving up my sources, unlike others) I also know through my friends in the triathlon, swimming and running worlds that they are as dirty as every other sport including cycling, which is dirty but not nearly as dirty as some make them out to be.

By the way I have no problem having an intelligent discussion about doping. I have problems with the in your face, repeat one thing over and over, lie, tell half-truths and always attack methods of others. When someone wants to have a real discussion I am cool with that, just look at VeloFlash and I recently.

I've had experience in several sports, from competitive club level to NCAA. I have seen the pressures on many athletes of the sporting institution itself, as well as the pressure from the ego of the athlete him/herself.

How could a super-naturally, gifted rider sit and watch a seemingly lesser rider on EPO fly by him/her on climbs, sprints, etc. How could the ego deal with that? I think about it from the perspective of TdF team, domestique rider #10, pushing to replace the 9th guy in a Grand Tour. Brutal. The margin of talent between the riders in the pro peloton is SO slim, even from Armstrong to #189 - at that level, any fractional edge might work wonders ... and at that level, imagine how hard it must be to get there clean, much less stay clean ...

But just to add to the post I wrote above, my understanding of the pressures involved don't suggest that I advocate, nor do I condemn athletes for making any decision related to PED's. Both sides of the argument speak to me in some way. The disgust I would feel for any filtering down of drug use into little league is as compelling an argument as the sympathy toward a struggling pro faced with an ulimatum of using carefully monitored supplements or losing a life-long dream.

If Timan was so forthcoming why is he avoiding answering my questions? His attitude indicated that he wanted to share, but his reality is that he doesn't. Sounds like someone else we used to know, without the threats and accusations of doping and selling dope.


What do you want me to say House.....give my full real name and teams etc ...why would I tell you that. If I give my name etc then anyone could look me up simply by finding a trail.... and why would I give access to myself and family ...I have a wife and three small children.


All I will say is that I raced Cat 1 for 13 long years starting in 1985. I could have raced Cat 1 into my forties but I had kids. I won plenty of races and was in the top 50 national Cat 1 riders in tt and road races. I blood doped one season and did testosterone and epo the next which was way less than many..so I had some talent. I thought that if I doped I might get a pro contract.....but even though I could have raced pro nobody picked me up because I was older. I am 43 years old now and still race masters and I am drug free and my enjoyment in riding comes from keeping up to and often beating young Cat 1 riders in tough group rides. The masters racing is very very tough and I also enjoy winning the occasional race in the masters...even though I know for a fact that not a few are juicing even in the masters.

House you don't have to catch people "red handed" to know "something is up"....when a guy all of a sudden and within a matter of weeks starts to kick your ass when in the past he didn't then "rest assured" he is juicing. In the masters testosterone is the most widely used juice because they can rationalize it's use by thinking that their natural T levels have declined since age 30....which is usually BS. Most get the stuff from their family docs and it's called hormone replacement therapy....then they tweek it up to high normal or more.

What do you want me to say House.....give my full real name and teams etc ...why would I tell you that. If I give my name etc then anyone could look me up simply by finding a trail.... and why would I give access to myself and family ...I have a wife and three small children.


All I will say is that I raced Cat 1 for 13 long years starting in 1985. I could have raced Cat 1 into my forties but I had kids. I won plenty of races and was in the top 50 national Cat 1 riders in tt and road races. I blood doped one season and did testosterone and epo the next which was way less than many..so I had some talent. I thought that if I doped I might get a pro contract.....but even though I could have raced pro nobody picked me up because I was older. I am 43 years old now and still race masters and I am drug free and my enjoyment in riding comes from keeping up to and often beating young Cat 1 riders in tough group rides. The masters racing is very very tough and I also enjoy winning the occasional race in the masters...even though I know for a fact that not a few are juicing even in the masters.

House you don't have to catch people "red handed" to know "something is up"....when a guy all of a sudden and within a matter of weeks starts to kick your ass when in the past he didn't then "rest assured" he is juicing. In the masters testosterone is the most widely used juice because they can rationalize it's use by thinking that their natural T levels have declined since age 30....which is usually BS. Most get the stuff from their family docs and it's called hormone replacement therapy....then they tweek it up to high normal or more.
I never asked for your name, merely what team you rode for and some of your results, but you couldn't give them. I asked where the proof that your first post implied and you have none. Which is the point I was getting at. You are just another person who claims they "know" what everyone is doing but can't provide any proof. We all know there is doping in cycling...and every other sport, but if you are going to claim everyone is doing it as a fact then bring real proof.

The question I have for TiMan is:

Why did you use so little testosterone? A standard first steroid cycle is at least 500mg/wk. Why didn't you use other products like EQ or deca with the test, which would have helped even more?

I never asked for your name, merely what team you rode for and some of your results, but you couldn't give them. I asked where the proof that your first post implied and you have none. Which is the point I was getting at. You are just another person who claims they "know" what everyone is doing but can't provide any proof. We all know there is doping in cycling...and every other sport, but if you are going to claim everyone is doing it as a fact then bring real proof.
How do you expect the guy to prove it?

As I posted before I was given EPO by Team doctor, and seen many people being injected but I never thought to take pictures.



I spoke to a former team mate from when I was a junior who was banned for EPO He has tried a comeback clean and say’s its impossible to be competitive without doping. I know it’ happening although I have not raced for at top level for 6 years I would be inclined to believe him more than you.

The question I have for TiMan is:

Why did you use so little testosterone? A standard first steroid cycle is at least 500mg/wk. Why didn't you use other products like EQ or deca with the test, which would have helped even more?


That's a body builders dose bro and would result in too much water and muscle weight gain even with an estrogen inhibitor like arimidex......but as little as 150mg/week will result in a doubling of free test in the body.
I heard EQ is good at about 400mg but never did it.

That's a body builders dose bro and would result in too much water and muscle weight gain even with an estrogen inhibitor like arimidex......but as little as 150mg/week will result in a doubling of free test in the body.
I heard EQ is good at about 400mg but never did it.

TiMan ... I've heard of some Master's using a patch? Androderm or something like that which is supposed to bring levels back to "normal"?

TiMan ... I've heard of some Master's using a patch? Androderm or something like that which is supposed to bring levels back to "normal"?


The patch only provides a dose that brings your testosterone level into the mid normal range....it's for men that suffer from low natural testosterone levels due to age. But most men make plenty of testosterone even at age 60...yet some need a boost.

If you take the patch all it will do it shut down your own natural test production and hold you at about 500ng/dl(mid normal) range. Then your nuts would shrink because they are not putting out testosterone...and do if they atre small enough for long enough they may not return to normal if you stop the patch.
So if tbro's out there are going to take testosterone then I wouldn't take if for more than 4 months before going off.

The patch only provides a dose that brings your testosterone level into the mid normal range....it's for men that suffer from low natural testosterone levels due to age. But most men make plenty of testosterone even at age 60...yet some need a boost.

If you take the patch all it will do it shut down your own natural test production and hold you at about 500ng/dl(mid normal) range. Then your nuts would shrink because they are not putting out testosterone...and do if they atre small enough for long enough they may not return to normal if you stop the patch.
So if tbro's out there are going to take testosterone then I wouldn't take if for more than 4 months before going off.

Gotta make you laught at those guys who have bought it!

I took 175 mg of testosterone per week by injection for one season.The ability to recover after repeated hard days was unreal. This dose of testosterone put my testosterone level above 1000ng/dl...about twice what a normal male puts out.
This is what the test does....it helps you recover. You can also get down below 6% body fat without loosing any muscle mass. On the down side test, and all steroids, will make you hold water weight and I was holding about 5 pounds I think. The water, however, is mainly intramuscular and it helps with strength a lot.

Sides.....acne, lost a bit of hair, and of course even a small dose of testosterone will shut down your natural testosterone production completely. When you stop it takes a while before your natural testosterone level comes back and you feel tired and with no sex drive at all.
Testosterone and all steroids will make your good cholesterol(hdl) basically disappear as well while "on" the stuff.




I also used EPO for 4 months 4000 iu's injected sub Q in the lower belly fat once a week to build, and then 1000 a week to hold. 4000iu's will bring your hematocrit up 1% a week.
I went up to 54% but even at 50%, the legal limit in the pro ranks , my performance was unreal.
My sustainable power output went from 350 to 420 in three months!!! That's a 20% gain!!!

Sides.....none because I checked my crit every three days with a portable crit tester.
I also NEVER got dehydrated and never went above 54%.
If anyone does not test their hematocrit at least weekly then they are idiots plain and simple.

Anyone that goes above 55% is an idiot because at night when your heart rate and blood pressure drops you can DIE simply because the heart is not getting enough oxygen.
By the way Riis and Pantani were well above 55% when they won "the tour".

At the time I was racing Cat 1 and I can tell you that most of the guys that were really good riders were on EPO or at least blood doping.

Now for the VERY COMMON way to blood dope.
Our team doctor would take about a liter of blood out of each of us a couple months before a big race. Then he would spin it in a centrifuge to rid the blood of plasma...what was left was pure red blood cells(packed cells). He would then drain the blood into blood bags, put preservative in it and put the whole nine yards in a frige at 33 degrees F. The day of the race we would infuse our own blood back. Each unit of packed cells(about 300cc) would increase our hematocrit about by 3!!! so if you infused 3 units you jumped 9 points....like from 45 to 54%!!!

Now I don't think that anyone should use drugs. I for one didn't like myself while I was "on". I always wondered about the guys in the back of the pack...what if they took drugs...maybe they would kick my ass. What about the pro's that don't use drugs ....maybe they would kick Armstrongs ass too.

SO...anyone who believes that Armstrong or any other top pro or even any top Cat 1 national level rider is clean simply lacks high level racing experince. Armstrong is an asshole for saying he has is clean......Greg Lemond know better. I do NOT wear the yellow wrist band!!!
Very interesting stuff. Two things I'm wondering are:

1. What's everypone's natural hematocrit levels?
2. How much does a high hematocrit really help?

The reason I ask is that I'm natural, never taken drugs in my life and my hematocrit has been measured regularly at 47-49 (never goes below 47). Yet, I am not a very good cyclist. Obviously there are other factors but still...

Very interesting stuff. Two things I'm wondering are:

1. What's everypone's natural hematocrit levels?
2. How much does a high hematocrit really help?

The reason I ask is that I'm natural, never taken drugs in my life and my hematocrit has been measured regularly at 47-49 (never goes below 47). Yet, I am not a very good cyclist. Obviously there are other factors but still... Don, just curious how do you measure your hematocrit?

Don, just curious how do you measure your hematocrit?
Your doctor does it at every checkup. it's part of a CBC/differential blood test. They do it routinely to check for things like low white blood cell counts, anemia and other blood issues. If you call your doctor, they should be able to tell you from your old records.

I have a question for Mr Pin Cushion (aka TiMan),

What times were you getting for the 40K TT? What equipment were you using?

Just curious.

I

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At the time I was racing Cat 1 and I can tell you that most of the guys that were really good riders were on EPO or at least blood doping.

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SO...anyone who believes that Armstrong or any other top pro or even any top Cat 1 national level rider is clean simply lacks high level racing experince. Armstrong is an asshole for saying he has is clean......Greg Lemond know better. I do NOT wear the yellow wrist band!!!
This is very discouraging to hear if it is an accurate depiction of racing at the Cat 1 level in the US. My son is a very talented 15 year old junior, who has aspirations of perhaps making it some day to Cat 1. Based on what I've seen in his riding, I've told him that he could probably make it to Cat 1 if he was sufficiently dedicated and determined, but if he is competing with riders who are doping and they are actually boosting their FTPs by 20% through doping then I'm guessing he would probably not be able to get the results (riding cleanly) to make it to Cat 1 unless his talent is truly exceptional.