New mantra: beginners need milage

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The folks here pushing milage over speed work for beginners are dead on.
I'm on track for my 4th week of over 40 miles/week. The most I've
done and sustained since I started over a year ago. 9 miles used to
almost be a long run for me, now I'm running 9 miles several times
midweek. I can definitely feel the difference. I'm just going to keep
adding miles, slowly. Keeping doing it is as much a victory as creating
some complex plan that I'll never follow. If I get out the door
day-day, week-week, and my milage keeps rising and my times falling,
that's good enough.

So, Oct. 2 is the Cowtown Marathon in Sacramento, then I'll have the
California International Marathon in December in Sacramento. Goal is to
get under 3:30.

>So, Oct. 2 is the Cowtown Marathon in Sacramento, then I'll have the
California International Marathon in December in Sacramento.
_____

so you, the self described "beginner"...you've chosen to run 2
marathons spread 62 days apart (CIM is 12/4/05).

why wait so long between races?....go to marathonguide.com and i am
sure you can find a nearby marathon to race in November. That way
you'll have a marathon to race in Oct, Nov. and Dec!

x-no-archive: yes

lanceandrew@aol.com wrote:
>>So, Oct. 2 is the Cowtown Marathon in Sacramento, then I'll have the
>
> California International Marathon in December in Sacramento.
> _____
>
> so you, the self described "beginner"...you've chosen to run 2
> marathons spread 62 days apart (CIM is 12/4/05).
>
> why wait so long between races?....go to marathonguide.com and i am
> sure you can find a nearby marathon to race in November. That way
> you'll have a marathon to race in Oct, Nov. and Dec!


I've run 1 marathon at 3:58 - I'm hardly even remotely close to guys
like Donovan. So yeah, I'd say relatively speaking, I'm a "beginner".
Or, at least my milage is very low compared to the competitors and the
elites, as are my times.

Are you saying I shouldn't run 2 so close together? I would think 2
months between would be enough recovery time.

Janithor wrote:

> Are you saying I shouldn't run 2 so close together? I would think 2
> months between would be enough recovery time.

It depends on your performance goals for the 2 marathons. If you just
want to run 2 marathons, then sure, it's enough recovery time. If you
want to perform to your potential, then no, it's not enough time.

--
Phil M.

x-no-archive: yes

Phil M. wrote:
> Janithor wrote:
>
>
>>Are you saying I shouldn't run 2 so close together? I would think 2
>>months between would be enough recovery time.
>
>
> It depends on your performance goals for the 2 marathons. If you just
> want to run 2 marathons, then sure, it's enough recovery time. If you
> want to perform to your potential, then no, it's not enough time.


Hm, I didn't know that. I looked it up in "The Competitive Runner's
Handbook" and he says another marathon shouldn't be considered for
another 6 months, experienced runners may be able to run another in 3-4
months.

Maybe I should do the 1/2 Marathon in Oct and the full in Dec?

On 2005-08-26, Janithor <JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Phil M. wrote:
>> Janithor wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Are you saying I shouldn't run 2 so close together? I would think 2
>>>months between would be enough recovery time.
>>
>>
>> It depends on your performance goals for the 2 marathons. If you just
>> want to run 2 marathons, then sure, it's enough recovery time. If you
>> want to perform to your potential, then no, it's not enough time.
>
>
> Hm, I didn't know that. I looked it up in "The Competitive Runner's
> Handbook" and he says another marathon shouldn't be considered for
> another 6 months, experienced runners may be able to run another in 3-4
> months.
>
> Maybe I should do the 1/2 Marathon in Oct and the full in Dec?

A half marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is fine.

A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

x-no-archive: yes

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> On 2005-08-26, Janithor <JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>Phil M. wrote:
>>
>>>Janithor wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Are you saying I shouldn't run 2 so close together? I would think 2
>>>>months between would be enough recovery time.
>>>
>>>
>>>It depends on your performance goals for the 2 marathons. If you just
>>>want to run 2 marathons, then sure, it's enough recovery time. If you
>>>want to perform to your potential, then no, it's not enough time.
>>
>>
>>Hm, I didn't know that. I looked it up in "The Competitive Runner's
>>Handbook" and he says another marathon shouldn't be considered for
>>another 6 months, experienced runners may be able to run another in 3-4
>>months.
>>
>>Maybe I should do the 1/2 Marathon in Oct and the full in Dec?
>
>
> A half marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is fine.
>
> A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.
>
> Cheers,


The Cowtown is Oct. 2, the CIM is Dec. 4. Would that be suicide?

How do you work shorter races into your training? e.g. If I run the 1/2
marathon at the Cowtown, should I taper my milage before/after, and
won't that cut down on my milage for the CIM in Dec? Or do you treat
these other races as speed work? If you're going all out in the shorter
races, don't you need recovery time, thus getting back to cutting into
your milage? The book I have is for first timers, doesn't really
address working other races into your training.

Other shorter races should not be a problem and good training for your
targeted race.

"Janithor" <JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:430FF0D5.80904@comcast.net...


> The Cowtown is Oct. 2, the CIM is Dec. 4. Would that be suicide?
>
> How do you work shorter races into your training? e.g. If I run the 1/2
> marathon at the Cowtown, should I taper my milage before/after, and won't
> that cut down on my milage for the CIM in Dec? Or do you treat these
> other races as speed work? If you're going all out in the shorter races,
> don't you need recovery time, thus getting back to cutting into your
> milage? The book I have is for first timers, doesn't really address
> working other races into your training.
>

"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrndgvqih.4gd.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
>
> A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.

If the first is used as a long run, i.e. run easy, why isn't it just
ones last long run. If run hard it's IS suicide.

-DF

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Doug Freese wrote:
> "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:slrndgvqih.4gd.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
>
>>A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.
>
>
> If the first is used as a long run, i.e. run easy, why isn't it just
> ones last long run. If run hard it's IS suicide.
>
> -DF


What about 2 months apart? I want to register tomorrow, it's the cutoff
for the cheaper price. Now I'm not sure if I should register for the
full marathon or for the 1/2 marathon, and put my eggs in the one in
December instead. I'd like to run both.

been in the mountains there. before.
not there now. 42°N 83°W,
give a smile and a hay!
there a restaurant there(mexican) to die for. and back then we went
looking for Linda. were Linda? the secretary said she was off with
the governor.
a lake were I had to go under for a boat a skier to past. water was
clear then.
had a great time. watch both past before I surface. was called into
shore....
ahhhhhhh to have a job...........
now ahhhhhhh to Not..:>)
ezekies wife.
Lowtuc

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:50:07 GMT, Janithor
<JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Doug Freese wrote:
>> "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrndgvqih.4gd.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
>>
>>>A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.
>>
>>
>> If the first is used as a long run, i.e. run easy, why isn't it just
>> ones last long run. If run hard it's IS suicide.
>>
>> -DF
>
>
>What about 2 months apart? I want to register tomorrow, it's the cutoff
>for the cheaper price. Now I'm not sure if I should register for the
>full marathon or for the 1/2 marathon, and put my eggs in the one in
>December instead. I'd like to run both.
i didn't see your intention posted. maybe i missed it.
but the answers have been for you to decide whether
you want to just run them and finish or do your best.
2 months apart sounds fine to me. 3 or so weeks
to a good recovery, a couple of long runs and then
another taper. go for it.
....thehick

JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net wrote:

[...]
> Phil M. wrote:
>> It depends on your performance goals for the 2 marathons. If you just
>> want to run 2 marathons, then sure, it's enough recovery time. If you
>> want to perform to your potential, then no, it's not enough time.
>
>
> Hm, I didn't know that. I looked it up in "The Competitive Runner's
> Handbook" and he says another marathon shouldn't be considered for
> another 6 months, experienced runners may be able to run another in 3-4
> months.
>
> Maybe I should do the 1/2 Marathon in Oct and the full in Dec?
[...]

Are you following the marathon training plan outlined in Glover's book? A
lot of marathon training plans will have you running a tuneup race 2 to 3
weeks before the goal marathon. This is good training for the marathon.
The plan I've followed for 2 marathons and now an upcomming 50k has you
running a tuneup race 2, 4, and 6 weeks away from the marathon. However,
the distance is only up to 15k, not 21k (half marathon). If I were to
plan a half marathon before a marathon, I would want it to be at least 3
weeks before the marathon.

If you just want to run the half at Cowtown, have a good time, and don't
really care if it's part of marathon training or not, then I don't think
it will impact the marathon one way or the other. If anything, it would
be a good learning experience.

--
Phil M.

JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net wrote:

[...]
> How do you work shorter races into your training? e.g. If I run the
> 1/2 marathon at the Cowtown, should I taper my milage before/after,
> and won't that cut down on my milage for the CIM in Dec? Or do you
> treat these other races as speed work? If you're going all out in the
> shorter races, don't you need recovery time, thus getting back to
> cutting into your milage? The book I have is for first timers,
> doesn't really address working other races into your training.

The plan I follow suggests doing a mini taper, but not go into full
taper mode because that will cut back too much on the overall training
for the week. Typically this represents a training block of at least 10
days, consisting of 4 to 6 days of tapering, the race itself, and
several days recovery before the next hard training session. Some
runners like to train through their tuneup races and treat them as an
all-out effort done while fatigued. This is fine as long as it doesn't
cause undo stress. Be sure to put your finishing time in context of the
situation.

--
Phil M.

JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net wrote:

[...]
> Now I'm not sure if I should register for the full marathon or for the
> 1/2 marathon, and put my eggs in the one in December instead. I'd
> like to run both.

Like Doug said, you could run the Cowtown at long run pace. My preference
would be to register for the full marathon, run the race at your normal
long run pace, then drop out at 20 miles. This is assuming you're prepared
to run a 20-mile long run. This will be a good training run for your goal
marathon in December. It will get you used to the marathoning experience
without the marathon pain. Things like what to wear, what and when to drink
at the aid stations, what to eat the day before, etc.

--
Phil M.

>What about 2 months apart? I want to register tomorrow.
_

Go For It! As i originally suggested, find a marathon for November as
well and do 3 marathons in 3 months. Why not? You've been running
for a whole year, you know what you're doing...furthermore this will
then qualify you for a "Bronze" membership with the Marathon Maniacs.

http://marathonmaniacs.com/

Don't listen to the these running elitist on this ng, they're basically
what we in the 'hood call "haters". Good luck & Godspeed! (emphasis
on s-p-e-e-d!).

On 2005-08-27, Janithor <JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> What about 2 months apart? I want to register tomorrow, it's the cutoff
> for the cheaper price. Now I'm not sure if I should register for the
> full marathon or for the 1/2 marathon,

Register for the half. It will help you set a realistic goal for the
marathon, and it's also good training.

> and put my eggs in the one in December instead. I'd like to run both.

It doesn't work like that. You don't reduce your risk by doing two in two
months.

There's an anecdote I heard about a football player who tried to run a
quarter in a certain goal time. He was a little bit slow, so a few minutes
later he tries again. Then again. I'm sure you can guess what happened --
each one was slower than the last.

You can certainly *recover* from a marathon in two months. What you can't
do is recover, build, then taper and peak for the second marathon. You
will always be weaker on the second one. The only way around this is if
you speed recovery on the first marathon by DNFing somewhere before the
15 mile mark.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On 2005-08-27, Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:slrndgvqih.4gd.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
>>
>> A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.
>
> If the first is used as a long run, i.e. run easy, why isn't it just
> ones last long run. If run hard it's IS suicide.

True, provided you can comfortably finish the full 26.2, and provided you
have the discipline to run the race at your long run pace. Most beginners
have trouble holding back the first half of a marathon to their marathon
pace (-; I got a bit of a laugh out of seeing a guy with a 3:15 pace sign
a few miles into the NY marathon last year.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Janithor" <JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43104559.4050804@comcast.net...
> What about 2 months apart? I want to register tomorrow, it's the
> cutoff for the cheaper price. Now I'm not sure if I should register
> for the full marathon or for the 1/2 marathon, and put my eggs in the
> one in December instead. I'd like to run both.

Can't answer!! This is not a calendar metric but how fast or well you
recover and only you know or don't know that.

-Dougf

"Janithor" <JanithorSPAMBEGONE@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43104559.4050804@comcast.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Doug Freese wrote:
> > "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:slrndgvqih.4gd.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
> >
> >>A full marathon 3 weeks before a full marathon is suicide.
> >
> > If the first is used as a long run, i.e. run easy, why isn't it just
> > ones last long run. If run hard it's IS suicide.
>
> What about 2 months apart? I want to register tomorrow, it's the cutoff
> for the cheaper price. Now I'm not sure if I should register for the
> full marathon or for the 1/2 marathon, and put my eggs in the one in
> December instead. I'd like to run both.

Last year I ran a 50k on Sept 11th, then a marathon on Nov 27th. While I'm
good about putting in the long runs, I'm a fairly low running mileage
cross-trainer guy, but I thought that would be sufficient time to be ready
for the marathon. For many reasons, the marathon effort was less than
stellar and a horrible experience. I felt burned out ramping up to the
marathon after the 50k. You'll only know how you do once you try it, but if
you like to always race hard, don't do it! Your legs might take a good 5-6
months to recover if you do - like mine did. As others have said if you do
the first one *slow* as training you should be fine.

-Tony