Re: Seal oil better than fish oil for prevention of cardiovascular diseases?

View Full Version : Re: Seal oil better than fish oil for prevention of cardiovascular diseases?

Zee

Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<sjmervsva3g8dckjg620kub78ij2ss14nk@4ax.com>...
> Cardiovascular disease (CVD) is the leading cause of death in
> industrialized countries. Initial studies by Band and Dyerberg in 1971 on
> Greenland Eskimos, and significant subsequent research, point to a strong
> relationship between Omega 3 PUFA and CVD. This study found that the
> Greenland Eskimos had a much lower incidence of CVD and cancer despite a
> diet high in the consumption of fats. Greenland Eskimos consumed much more
> seal than fish, seal being a staple of their diet. Seal oil has high
> content of EPA, DPA, and DHA, while fish oil is rich in EPA and DHA, but
> contains little DPA. Seal oil can supply up to ten times as much DPA as
> would fish oils. About a third of the long chain Omega 3 fatty acids
> circulating in human blood is attributable to DPA.
>
> Because of this, DPA has become of interest to medical researchers in both
> France and Japan. It seems that in the blood vessel walls, EPA may
> actually be converted to DPA as the effective agent.
>
> Japanese researchers at the Tokyo Medical and Dental University in Tokyo
> have shown that the one stimulative effect of EPA on endothelial cell
> migration occurs via DPA, and that DPA may act as a powering
> antiatherogenic factor. Although it has been believed that EPA is the key
> in producing prostaglandin that keeps the artery wall soft and free of
> plaque, this study indicated that DPA may be 10-20 times more powerful
> than EPA in this effect.
>
> See also
>
> Orsoq
> Eat Meat and Blubber from Sea Mammals and avoid Cardiovascular disease
> <http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Culture/or-ea-me.htm>

----------------snipped------------------

And then we have these; a different point of view on omega 3s:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed

Zee

Matti Narkia

23 Nov 2003 11:30:23 -0800 in article
<e5f4a9c2.0311231130.79e4b5f@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
wrote:

>zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee) wrote in message news:<e5f4a9c2.0311230706.5aa7b5fa@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> And then we have these; a different point of view on omega 3s:
>
>Atherosclerosis. 2003 Feb;166(2):351-7. Related Articles, Links
>
>
>Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the
>evidence?
>
>Bjerregaard P, Young TK, Hegele RA.
>
>Division for Research in Greenland, National Institute of Public
>Health, Svanemollevej 25 Copenhagen O, Denmark.
>p.bjerregaard@dadlnet.dk
>
[snip]

>>INTERPRETATION: The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases
>combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison
>populations.

In the study

Young TK, Moffatt ME, O'Neil JD.
Cardiovascular diseases in a Canadian Arctic population.
Am J Public Health. 1993 Jun;83(6):881-7.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8498628&dopt=Abstract>

the authors got a slightly different result:

"... RESULTS. The age-standardized mortality rate for
ischemic heart disease (but not for other heart diseases or
stroke) among the Northwest Territories population was lower
than among the Canadian population. Among the indigenous
Inuit/Eskimos and Indians, the age-standardized mortality
rate for all circulatory diseases was lower than Canadians.
..."

Zee

Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<4kg2sv8v8217rcu1js0qmh6hn2unv8ej3m@4ax.com>...
> 23 Nov 2003 11:30:23 -0800 in article
> <e5f4a9c2.0311231130.79e4b5f@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
> wrote:
>
> >zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee) wrote in message news:<e5f4a9c2.0311230706.5aa7b5fa@posting.google.com>...
> >Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the
> >evidence?
> >
> >Bjerregaard P, Young TK, Hegele RA.
> >
> >Division for Research in Greenland, National Institute of Public
> >Health, Svanemollevej 25 Copenhagen O, Denmark.
> >p.bjerregaard@dadlnet.dk
> >
> [snip]

Zee:Greenland
>
> >>INTERPRETATION: The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases
> >combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison
> >populations.
>
> In the study
>
> Young TK, Moffatt ME, O'Neil JD.
> Cardiovascular diseases in a Canadian Arctic population.
> Am J Public Health. 1993 Jun;83(6):881-7.
> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8498628&dopt=Abstract>

Zee: Canada
>
> the authors got a slightly different result:
>
> "... RESULTS. The age-standardized mortality rate for
> ischemic heart disease (but not for other heart diseases or
> stroke) among the Northwest Territories population was lower
> than among the Canadian population. Among the indigenous
> Inuit/Eskimos and Indians, the age-standardized mortality
> rate for all circulatory diseases was lower than Canadians.
> ..."

Zee: And finally; Inuit and Indians have a completely different diet.
And were they meat (caribou and other deer) eating Dene? The Cree
surrounding the southern and eastern Hudsons Bay? They eat geese, fish
and game. Inland Inuit in the area west of Hudsons Bay? They eat
caribou, almost exclusively. Appears an Inuit in Barrow, is not an
Inuit in Cambridge Bay, is not an Inuit in the Belcher Islands. And
none them is Dene. (Did you know Matti, you can get a pretty good idea
what an aboriginal people eat by their mythology?)

Matti Narkia

23 Nov 2003 18:46:53 -0800 in article
<e5f4a9c2.0311231846.30efaa89@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
wrote:

>Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<4kg2sv8v8217rcu1js0qmh6hn2unv8ej3m@4ax.com>...
>> 23 Nov 2003 11:30:23 -0800 in article
>> <e5f4a9c2.0311231130.79e4b5f@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee) wrote in message news:<e5f4a9c2.0311230706.5aa7b5fa@posting.google.com>...
>> >Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the
>> >evidence?
>> >
>> >Bjerregaard P, Young TK, Hegele RA.
>> >
>> >Division for Research in Greenland, National Institute of Public
>> >Health, Svanemollevej 25 Copenhagen O, Denmark.
>> >p.bjerregaard@dadlnet.dk
>> >
>> [snip]
>
>Zee:Greenland
>>
>> >>INTERPRETATION: The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases
>> >combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison
>> >populations.
>>
[snip]

>> Pedersen HS, Mulvad G, Newman WP 3rd, Boudreau DA.
>> Atherosclerosis in coronary arteries and aorta among Greenlanders: an
>> autopsy study.
>> Atherosclerosis. 2003 Sep;170(1):93-103.
>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12957687&dopt=Abstract>
>> ( http://tinyurl.com/w8vs )

Greenland. The results were similar than in earlier autopsy reports in
Canada.

>> In the study
>>
>> Young TK, Moffatt ME, O'Neil JD.
>> Cardiovascular diseases in a Canadian Arctic population.
>> Am J Public Health. 1993 Jun;83(6):881-7.
>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8498628&dopt=Abstract>
>
>Zee: Canada
>>
>
>Zee: And finally; Inuit and Indians have a completely different diet.
>And were they meat (caribou and other deer) eating Dene? The Cree
>surrounding the southern and eastern Hudsons Bay? They eat geese, fish
>and game. Inland Inuit in the area west of Hudsons Bay? They eat
>caribou, almost exclusively. Appears an Inuit in Barrow, is not an
>Inuit in Cambridge Bay, is not an Inuit in the Belcher Islands. And
>none them is Dene. (Did you know Matti, you can get a pretty good idea
>what an aboriginal people eat by their mythology?)
>
So they ate a lot of game? As fish and seal, game meat is high in omega-3
fatty acids.

Matti Narkia

Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:16:10 +0200 in article
<d9b3sv4ugjd9pc4djsbp16qdfa684lumj2@4ax.com> Matti Narkia
<mnng@despammed.com> wrote:

>23 Nov 2003 18:46:53 -0800 in article
><e5f4a9c2.0311231846.30efaa89@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
>wrote:
>
>>Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<4kg2sv8v8217rcu1js0qmh6hn2unv8ej3m@4ax.com>...
>>> 23 Nov 2003 11:30:23 -0800 in article
>>> <e5f4a9c2.0311231130.79e4b5f@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee) wrote in message news:<e5f4a9c2.0311230706.5aa7b5fa@posting.google.com>...
>>> >Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the
>>> >evidence?
>>> >
>>> >Bjerregaard P, Young TK, Hegele RA.
>>> >
>>> >Division for Research in Greenland, National Institute of Public
>>> >Health, Svanemollevej 25 Copenhagen O, Denmark.
>>> >p.bjerregaard@dadlnet.dk
>>> >
>>> [snip]
>>
>>Zee:Greenland
>>>
>>> >>INTERPRETATION: The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases
>>> >combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison
>>> >populations.
>>>
>[snip]
>
>>> Pedersen HS, Mulvad G, Newman WP 3rd, Boudreau DA.
>>> Atherosclerosis in coronary arteries and aorta among Greenlanders: an
>>> autopsy study.
>>> Atherosclerosis. 2003 Sep;170(1):93-103.
>>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12957687&dopt=Abstract>
>>> ( http://tinyurl.com/w8vs )
>
>Greenland. The results were similar than in earlier autopsy reports in
>Canada.
>
>>> In the study
>>>
>>> Young TK, Moffatt ME, O'Neil JD.
>>> Cardiovascular diseases in a Canadian Arctic population.
>>> Am J Public Health. 1993 Jun;83(6):881-7.
>>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8498628&dopt=Abstract>
>>
>>Zee: Canada
>>>
>>
>>Zee: And finally; Inuit and Indians have a completely different diet.
>>And were they meat (caribou and other deer) eating Dene? The Cree
>>surrounding the southern and eastern Hudsons Bay? They eat geese, fish
>>and game. Inland Inuit in the area west of Hudsons Bay? They eat
>>caribou, almost exclusively. Appears an Inuit in Barrow, is not an
>>Inuit in Cambridge Bay, is not an Inuit in the Belcher Islands. And
>>none them is Dene. (Did you know Matti, you can get a pretty good idea
>>what an aboriginal people eat by their mythology?)
>>
>So they ate a lot of game? As fish and seal, game meat is high in omega-3
>fatty acids.

See also the abstract of

Middaugh JP.
Cardiovascular deaths among Alaskan Natives, 1980-86.
Am J Public Health. 1990 Mar;80(3):282-5.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2305905&dopt=Abstract>
( http://tinyurl.com/w8w0 )

"Average annual, age-adjusted death rates from cardiovascular
diseases and atherosclerosis from 1980-86 among Alaskan
Natives were lower than rates among other Alaskans (162.0 vs
242.1; RR = 0.67), while death rates from other causes were
higher (954.4 vs 618.6; RR = 1.54). These suggest that
Alaskan Natives have less cardiovascular disease than other
populations. Additional research on the role of marine
omega-3 fatty acids is needed."

As I mentioned earlier, the autopsy reports from Alaska and Greenland
suggest a similar rate of atherosclerosis among the natives of Alaska and
Greenland.

Zee

Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<ajc3svgcb4r01dgsshmmgec957avai50bh@4ax.com>...
> Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:16:10 +0200 in article
> <d9b3sv4ugjd9pc4djsbp16qdfa684lumj2@4ax.com> Matti Narkia
> <mnng@despammed.com> wrote:
>
> >23 Nov 2003 18:46:53 -0800 in article
> ><e5f4a9c2.0311231846.30efaa89@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<4kg2sv8v8217rcu1js0qmh6hn2unv8ej3m@4ax.com>...
> >>> 23 Nov 2003 11:30:23 -0800 in article
> >>> <e5f4a9c2.0311231130.79e4b5f@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee) wrote in message news:<e5f4a9c2.0311230706.5aa7b5fa@posting.google.com>...
> >>> >Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the
> >>> >evidence?
> >>> >
> >>> >Bjerregaard P, Young TK, Hegele RA.
> >>> >
> >>> >Division for Research in Greenland, National Institute of Public
> >>> >Health, Svanemollevej 25 Copenhagen O, Denmark.
> >>> >p.bjerregaard@dadlnet.dk
> >>> >
> >>> [snip]
> >>
> >>Zee:Greenland
> >>>
> >>> >>INTERPRETATION: The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases
> >>> >combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison
> >>> >populations.
> >>>
> >[snip]
> >
> >>> Pedersen HS, Mulvad G, Newman WP 3rd, Boudreau DA.
> >>> Atherosclerosis in coronary arteries and aorta among Greenlanders: an
> >>> autopsy study.
> >>> Atherosclerosis. 2003 Sep;170(1):93-103.
> >>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12957687&dopt=Abstract>
> >>> ( http://tinyurl.com/w8vs )
> >
> >Greenland. The results were similar than in earlier autopsy reports in
> >Canada.
> >
> >>> In the study
> >>>
> >>> Young TK, Moffatt ME, O'Neil JD.
> >>> Cardiovascular diseases in a Canadian Arctic population.
> >>> Am J Public Health. 1993 Jun;83(6):881-7.
> >>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8498628&dopt=Abstract>
> >>
> >>Zee: Canada
> >>>
> >>
> >>Zee: And finally; Inuit and Indians have a completely different diet.
> >>And were they meat (caribou and other deer) eating Dene? The Cree
> >>surrounding the southern and eastern Hudsons Bay? They eat geese, fish
> >>and game. Inland Inuit in the area west of Hudsons Bay? They eat
> >>caribou, almost exclusively. Appears an Inuit in Barrow, is not an
> >>Inuit in Cambridge Bay, is not an Inuit in the Belcher Islands. And
> >>none them is Dene. (Did you know Matti, you can get a pretty good idea
> >>what an aboriginal people eat by their mythology?)
> >>
> >So they ate a lot of game? As fish and seal, game meat is high in omega-3
> >fatty acids.
>
> See also the abstract of
>
> Middaugh JP.
> Cardiovascular deaths among Alaskan Natives, 1980-86.
> Am J Public Health. 1990 Mar;80(3):282-5.
> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2305905&dopt=Abstract>
> ( http://tinyurl.com/w8w0 )
>
> "Average annual, age-adjusted death rates from cardiovascular
> diseases and atherosclerosis from 1980-86 among Alaskan
> Natives were lower than rates among other Alaskans (162.0 vs
> 242.1; RR = 0.67), while death rates from other causes were
> higher (954.4 vs 618.6; RR = 1.54). These suggest that
> Alaskan Natives have less cardiovascular disease than other
> populations. Additional research on the role of marine
> omega-3 fatty acids is needed."
>
>
> As I mentioned earlier, the autopsy reports from Alaska and Greenland
> suggest a similar rate of atherosclerosis among the natives of Alaska and
> Greenland.

You just can't lump all these diverse people's together. They are
different races. And game, as it is known in the vernacular, refers
only to land animals. Further the studies are not only on peoples
thousands of miles apart (Barrow to Greenland) they are 10 years
separate. But most of all, they are of people of a different race.
This is like studying a group of people in Scotland and applying
what's been learned to the Basque. Zee

Matti Narkia

24 Nov 2003 07:59:14 -0800 in article
<e5f4a9c2.0311240759.1140f007@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
wrote:

>Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<ajc3svgcb4r01dgsshmmgec957avai50bh@4ax.com>...
>>
>> As I mentioned earlier, the autopsy reports from Alaska and Greenland
>> suggest a similar rate of atherosclerosis among the natives of Alaska and
>> Greenland.
>
>You just can't lump all these diverse people's together. They are
>different races. And game, as it is known in the vernacular, refers
>only to land animals. Further the studies are not only on peoples
>thousands of miles apart (Barrow to Greenland) they are 10 years
>separate. But most of all, they are of people of a different race.
>This is like studying a group of people in Scotland and applying
>what's been learned to the Basque. Zee

Well, they are all eskimos/inuits, aren't they? I don't know much about
their gene pools, but I'd assume that genetically eskimos/inuits in
Alaska, Canada, Greenland and Russia are nearer to each other than to
white caucasian race. Besides the point here is to find out the effect of
nutrition on cardiovascular diseases. Genetics may play a part, but
studies from around the world seem suggest that this part is smaller than
the part of nutrition, IMHO.

Matti Narkia

Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:12:30 +0200 in article
<m3b4sv0d64e3o05okmr7kg2l3mj9k4kvio@4ax.com> Matti Narkia
<mnng@despammed.com> wrote:

>24 Nov 2003 07:59:14 -0800 in article
><e5f4a9c2.0311240759.1140f007@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
>wrote:
>
>>Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<ajc3svgcb4r01dgsshmmgec957avai50bh@4ax.com>...
>>>
>>> As I mentioned earlier, the autopsy reports from Alaska and Greenland
>>> suggest a similar rate of atherosclerosis among the natives of Alaska and
>>> Greenland.
>>
>>You just can't lump all these diverse people's together. They are
>>different races. And game, as it is known in the vernacular, refers
>>only to land animals. Further the studies are not only on peoples
>>thousands of miles apart (Barrow to Greenland) they are 10 years
>>separate. But most of all, they are of people of a different race.
>>This is like studying a group of people in Scotland and applying
>>what's been learned to the Basque. Zee
>
>Well, they are all eskimos/inuits, aren't they? I don't know much about
>their gene pools, but I'd assume that genetically eskimos/inuits in
>Alaska, Canada, Greenland and Russia are nearer to each other than to
>white caucasian race. Besides the point here is to find out the effect of
>nutrition on cardiovascular diseases. Genetics may play a part, but
>studies from around the world seem suggest that this part is smaller than
>the part of nutrition, IMHO.
>
And according to my understanding the traditional diets of eskimos/inuits
in Alaska, Canada, Greenland and Russia have been fairly similar (with
lots of seal and whale meat and blubber, and fish) or at least nearer to
each other than to modern diets in developed western societies. What is
common in traditional diets of eskimos/inuits regardless of where they
lived seems to be a large proportion of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids,
which in addition of EPA and DHA include also DPA.

Matti Narkia

24 Nov 2003 07:59:14 -0800 in article
<e5f4a9c2.0311240759.1140f007@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
wrote:

> And game, as it is known in the vernacular, refers
>only to land animals.

Yes, and typically game meat is much higher in omega-3 fatty acids and
lower in saturated fatty acids as cow's meat for example.

Zee

Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<big4svcmm51hgcqfba2jk66hfjg3djaclg@4ax.com>...
> 24 Nov 2003 07:59:14 -0800 in article
> <e5f4a9c2.0311240759.1140f007@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
> wrote:
>
> > And game, as it is known in the vernacular, refers
> >only to land animals.
>
> Yes, and typically game meat is much higher in omega-3 fatty acids and
> lower in saturated fatty acids as cow's meat for example.

No. They are not the same race--western Arctic differs from easter
Arctic as much as from white and Dene or Haida, and each of those from
each other. I stand on my comments about race and the one study
showing deleterious effect on mortality from omega 3s. We could play
duelling urls here forever but I now exit this thread. I've got bigger
fish to catch. Thanks for your always good info. ZEE

Matti Narkia

24 Nov 2003 14:28:56 -0800 in article
<e5f4a9c2.0311241428.1951e048@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
wrote:

>Matti Narkia <mnng@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<big4svcmm51hgcqfba2jk66hfjg3djaclg@4ax.com>...
>> 24 Nov 2003 07:59:14 -0800 in article
>> <e5f4a9c2.0311240759.1140f007@posting.google.com> zwalanga@yahoo.com (Zee)
>> wrote:
>>
>> > And game, as it is known in the vernacular, refers
>> >only to land animals.
>>
>> Yes, and typically game meat is much higher in omega-3 fatty acids and
>> lower in saturated fatty acids as cow's meat for example.
>
>No. They are not the same race--western Arctic differs from easter
>Arctic as much as from white and Dene or Haida, and each of those from
>each other.

I'm sorry, but my above comment was about the game meat ;-). What has that
do with race? :-)

>I stand on my comments about race and the one study
>showing deleterious effect on mortality from omega 3s. We could play
>duelling urls here forever but I now exit this thread. I've got bigger
>fish to catch. Thanks for your always good info. ZEE

Well, I cannot argue about the arctic races, because I know next to
nothing about them. But IMHO the variations in nutrition almost always
hides the potential genetic differences between the races. An extreme
example of this is animal tests, which we hope to tell us something about
the effects on humans, but that's a totally different issue.

What was the study showing deleterious effect on mortality from omega 3s?

Thanks for your interest.