It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

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[QUOTE=peterwright]That's a bit like saying that if you were badly injured, you would rather trust yourself to a 19th century doc with good experience & intuition than a young doc using the latest technology and principles at a new ER...QUOTE]

Actually, Peter, I think you've inadvertantly selected an analogy that supports my general contention. The U.S. has perhaps the most advanced, "well-trained," and scientific medical care in the world. Yet we're way down the list of countries when it comes to various indicators of public health (infant mortality, heart disease, life expectancy, etc.). Our population is obscenely overmedicated (including children for ADD, depression, etc.) Procedures and medicines are touted as the new best thing (heart stents, estrogen, accutane, back surgery, and on and on) and then later found to have serious problems that should limit their use.

I have several personal examples. Two years ago I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism (diminished thyroid function). Two doctors concurred. Both wanted me to start taking thyroid replacement pills (forever). I resisted. I trusted my body to make the effort to readjust itself. The following year I was tested again and showed completely normal thyroid function.

I wonder how many people out there are taking meds for thyroid, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc. that were prescribed prematurely, just based on "looking at the numbers," without first trying more natural means of dealing with the problem and giving it time.

Too much science, too many numbers, too many charts and graphs. When it comes to what human beings are able to do, whether you're talking about disease or athletic performance, you need a balance of the Western and the Eastern perspectives.

(Just so that some of you don't conclude that my opinions originate from some humanistic-afraid-of-numbers-and-science temperament, I have an M.S. in nuclear physics and a Ph.D. in Philosophy of Science and Logic.)

The U.S. has perhaps the most advanced, "well-trained," and scientific medical care in the world. Yet we're way down the list of countries when it comes to various indicators of public health (infant mortality, heart disease, life expectancy, etc.).

And just how much of that, do you suppose, relates to the health habits of the population as a whole, vs. the medical treatment that they (often don't, for the financially disadvantaged) receive?

I have an M.S. in nuclear physics and a Ph.D. in Philosophy of Science and Logic.)
Nuclear physics?? :eek:

...and you can't tell the difference between 'predictable' chaos and the stock market? :p

And just how much of that, do you suppose, relates to the health habits of the population as a whole, vs. the medical treatment that they (often don't, for the financially disadvantaged) receive?
I don't know, Andy, do you? But your rhetorical question seems to presuppose that the citizens of the other advanced countries have better overall health habits than we in the U.S., and I don't think that's true. If you think you can make a convincing case for it, I'm happy to hear it, but it's probably not worth it because it's just a footnote to our main discussion.

...The sort of detailed numerical analyses of performance data that dominate some of these threads might be interesting, but I doubt that much of it is making many people faster out on the roads.In a literal sense I have to agree with you. The data hasn't directly made me faster on the road. But I find collecting and analyzing the data keeps me motivated. I'm always interested in setting my next 20 minute or 5 minute personal best and that gets me excited about going out on my L4 and L5 days. It was even enough to get me on the trainer for three to four SST sessions a week all winter when I've always hated trainers. But you're right, the data and the analysis of that data hasn't made me faster, the time spent training coupled with good recovery have made me faster.

If data doesn't interest or motivate you and you don't care if you've set a PB or held even on a given day then just go out and ride. Personally that day to day challenge indoors or out is highly motivating almost like my personal race series that can happen rain or shine every training day of the year. I might go slow in a stout headwind or up a steeper hill or even up a loose single track trail but the watts don't lie and I always have the chance to challenge myself regardless of the conditions. I got dropped up a long climb during a road race about a month ago and figured I was off the back and out of contention. But I chased hard in part because I was racing for my own best power over the distance not just the chance to contest the field sprint. Over the next hour I caught and passed a number of other riders and finished in the points. I'm not sure I would have had the willpower to go it alone in the wind for that long unless I was riding my own personal race against the PM.

Then there's the balance of exercise to rest and the process of building and peaking. I've tracked miles, hours, waking HR you name it over the years but I've never felt so dialed on balancing training and recovery as I do with the Performance Manager. I take rest days with confidence and train hard with equal confidence because I've got some meaningful metrics to keep an eye on. I know I can tolerate many days with a TSB down to -20 but know I need rest if it drops much below that. I know how I feel for a given CTL ramp and know when to back off of a tough build. Hours or miles alone never gave me that confidence in terms of when to go hard and dig a deep hole and when to back off and rest.

Collecting and analyzing all this data also lets me visually track progress in terms of FTP, points on the Mean Maximal Curve, weekly TSS, calories expended during a workout or week and a host of other things that I find both very motivating and very useful in terms of making training, rest, build and taper decisions.

So on one hand I agree with you, the data alone doesn't make you faster. In the end the only data that really counts is recorded in your legs. On the other hand the motivation that data provides and the feedback and planning it facilitates is priceless and has definitely helped me get a lot faster.

YMMV,
-Dave

It's a question of balancing the need for power with the need for endurance

The workout schedule that my coach is currently prescribing is labeled “endurance-power training”.
:D

I don't know, Andy, do you? But your rhetorical question seems to presuppose that the citizens of the other advanced countries have better overall health habits than we in the U.S., and I don't think that's true. If you think you can make a convincing case for it, I'm happy to hear it, but it's probably not worth it because it's just a footnote to our main discussion.

The differences between the U.S. compared to, say, Sweden are that:

1) we have a much greater minority population, which bears an inordinate burden in terms of disease, in part because of poorer health habits, and

2) we do not have universal health care, which means that those who need medical care the most (esp. preventive care) are the least likely to receive it (since they can't afford it).

Combine #1 and #2 with the higher incidence of obesity in the US compared to other Western nations, and I don't find it surprising at all that the statistics are not in our favor.

T
2) we do not have universal health care, which means that those who need medical care the most (esp. preventive care) are the least likely to receive it (since they can't afford it).



I know the illegal meth head Mexicans get heart trans plants here in Tucson that us American tax payers pay for. The poor Americans are put on the back burner when they need such care.
:mad:

Hi Tyson,

This is a much belated praise for what you've done on this forum.


There you have it in a nutshell; from an awesome 120 watts http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/nuts1.gif at the beginning of last year to 10 minutes at 300watts today in a greenhouse gym.

If I can do it, anyone can.Maybe not as fast as you progressed. Last fall I had two months of extended forced, complete rest due to illness. When I got back on my bike in November for the first time after the operation, I struggled to sustain 150 watts. In fact, 60MMP from that ride was only 131 watts!!:eek:

Fastforward to the present...

A couple of days ago I re-estimated my FTP at 235 watts and recalculated my training levels accordingly, but part of me remained skeptical; the skeptic part of me kept saying "nah, you're not gonna do 235 for an hour!" but I went ahead anyway and changed the FTP setting in WKO+, wanting to push myself harder to prepare for my A race coming up in late August.

This morning I went out to ride and did 1hr TT (aka FTP test), and you know what? I proved the skeptic part of me wrong!! I posted a new PB 60MMP with AP at 233 watts / NP at 236.:D (previous PB was AP=220/NP=224)

Ok, ok, it's not as impressive as your feat, but the important thing is to keep trying to improve, isn't it?

So, although your impressive progress almost discourages me;), I will not stop trying. I'll try to remember you if my inner devil ever tries to talk me into giving up. You inspire us all to work harder.

So, keep up the good work.

Ken

Hi Tyson,

This is a much belated praise for what you've done on this forum.

Maybe not as fast as you progressed. Last fall I had two months of extended forced, complete rest due to illness. When I got back on my bike in November for the first time after the operation, I struggled to sustain 150 watts. In fact, 60MMP from that ride was only 131 watts!!:eek:

Fastforward to the present...

A couple of days ago I re-estimated my FTP at 235 watts and recalculated my training levels accordingly, but part of me remained skeptical; the skeptic part of me kept saying "nah, you're not gonna do 235 for an hour!" but I went ahead anyway and changed the FTP setting in WKO+, wanting to push myself harder to prepare for my A race coming up in late August.

This morning I went out to ride and did 1hr TT (aka FTP test), and you know what? I proved the skeptic part of me wrong!! I posted a new PB 60MMP with AP at 233 watts / NP at 236.:D (previous PB was AP=220/NP=224)

Ok, ok, it's not as impressive as your feat, but the important thing is to keep trying to improve, isn't it?

So, although your impressive progress almost discourages me;), I will not stop trying. I'll try to remember you if my inner devil ever tries to talk me into giving up. You inspire us all to work harder.

So, keep up the good work.

KenI think my anger following the Fukui ride has subsided enough for me to start posting again. (more on that later)

Thanks for your kind words Ken. I sometimes wonder whether the "It's killing me" thread is an altogether positive, inspirational thread or perhaps for some a rather discouraging thread.

I think you summed up possible conflicts very well in the "bold" statements above. Whatever you read in these forums can possibly be taken in promoting either encouragement or disillusionment with one's own progress.
Sometimes when I look at the FTPs of other posters here, I think my FTP is abysmal. Then I shake myself and say, hell man you're 65 years old in a couple of months time, you're still improving albeit somewhat at a slower pace than before.
The one thing I've definitely learned from these forums is that you really shouldn't compare yourself with other posters, or at least not to let it have an adverse effect on your training. Concentrate on your own progress and improving your cycling to the best of your ability. Sure draw inspiration from others ahead of you but don't be discouraged if you don't attain their level. (bearing in mind that we are all born with a different genetic makeup)

There are very, very few Lances, Chopins or Einsteins born and there is a myriad of levels below them. None of which are really to be sneered at.

To emphasise my point, I used to feel envious of RapDaddyo's figures, but I came to realize, although we are roughly the same age that the chances of my achieving what he has achieved are indeed slim. My body will not let me punish it to the extent that RD is capable of punishing himself in training.

Anyway, keep up the good work Ken. Tyson ;)

The Fukui Gran Fondo.

An event I would rather forget but still...

As per last year we all lined up facing up the mountain, ready for a nasty climb from the word go. Then, despite the profile indicating the same climb as last year, the starter said we are going downhill first. (down the killler climb at the end of the ride) Absolutely no one knew, so we all turned our bikes round to face the other way.:confused: Because of the danger of 300 bods screaming down an almost vertical hairpin climb, we had to follow the yellow Mavic car to the bottom.

Great I thought, gives me a chance to warm up. Ha! At the bottom we started a several km climb which seemed to go on forever. I managed to keep the lead group in sight - just. (I'm still too heavy for strong climbing).
On the other side of the climb, a long steady decent saw speeds pick up to 60kph plus.

To cut a long story short, after 55kms at the first checkpoint (and water replenishment) I set off with the leaders, however, they were too hot for me, and I found myself alone between 2 groups. Looking back I couldn't see the chasing group and soon I couldn't see the lead group either.
Then disaster struck - there was no marshal at the the next junction and I turned left instead of right (didn't notice any sign) My cyling buddy who was in a chasing group said 3 other riders in front of them turned left but they called them back. No such luck for me!:(

I kept looking back to see where the chasing groups were but I never saw anyone, and soon having covered 77kms arrived back at checkpoint one.:mad:
The carpark was crowded with guys having covered just 55 kms.
I was so p.....d, I said to an organizer, "which is the quickest way home?"
F--k your stupid event! (it was a different course from last year btw.)
Eventually I arrived in the town at the beginning of the 13/14 km climb to the finish. Couldn't be bothered looking for the check point.

On the climb back up I passed many tail enders of the 75km race. At 3 kms from home I was passed by a Japanese friend of mine (semi-pro at University)
who came in first of the guys doing 150kms.
After an excruciating 1 km final climb, I came in 2nd, having cut the course short by 25km.:D

This is the 2nd time I've got lost on a Japanese ride, and at the time I swore I would never ride another. But I suppose I shall be there next year to wreak revenge - more powerful and much lighter. And unfortunately a pensioner!;)
.

This is the 2nd time I've got lost on a Japanese ride, and at the time I swore I would never ride another. But I suppose I shall be there next year to wreak revenge - more powerful and much lighter. And unfortunately a pensioner!;)
.
I feel your pain Tyson. Last November one rider and I were off the front of the pack and missed the turn on a 120km race. We finished OUR 160 km "ride" together after having climbed some of the most god awful roads (in the rain, in November) down by Shimonoseki.

That'll learn me! (yeah right)

I feel your pain Tyson. Last November one rider and I were off the front of the pack and missed the turn on a 120km race. We finished OUR 160 km "ride" together after having climbed some of the most god awful roads (in the rain, in November) down by Shimonoseki.

That'll learn me! (yeah right)
LOL At least I did less than the course distance! Mind you, if I hadn't ignored a marshall on the way home, I would probably have ended up doing 180KM, in fact I might still be out there.:eek:

Tyson

Hello I'm new to this forum , but not to cycling . I have been following this topic for the last couple of months. Started doing the 2x20 six weeks ago at 200watts, after taking it easy from an Ironman in April. My training has been like this:
mon- run 40 min to 1 hr , swim
tues-cycle 10min wup 1x20 at 225watts 5min easy 1x20 at 225 watts 5 min cooldown
weds-cycle 10 wup 50 min at 200watts 5min cool down
thurs- run 40min to 1hr , swim
fri-cycle 10min wup 1x20 at 225watts 5min easy 1x20 at 225 watts 5 min cooldown.
sat-run 1hr to 2hr.
sun- cycle 2-4 outside
Tues , Weds , Fri , cycling is inside on a fluid trainer , on ttbike with powertap.
Would like your thoughts if im doing enough , or to much , with the drills with watts , and if the easy between the 2x 20 is to long ?

THANKS B

Hello I'm new to this forum , but not to cycling . I have been following this topic for the last couple of months. Started doing the 2x20 six weeks ago at 200watts, after taking it easy from an Ironman in April. My training has been like this:
mon- run 40 min to 1 hr , swim
tues-cycle 10min wup 1x20 at 225watts 5min easy 1x20 at 225 watts 5 min cooldown
weds-cycle 10 wup 50 min at 200watts 5min cool down
thurs- run 40min to 1hr , swim
fri-cycle 10min wup 1x20 at 225watts 5min easy 1x20 at 225 watts 5 min cooldown.
sat-run 1hr to 2hr.
sun- cycle 2-4 outside
Tues , Weds , Fri , cycling is inside on a fluid trainer , on ttbike with powertap.
Would like your thoughts if im doing enough , or to much , with the drills with watts , and if the easy between the 2x 20 is to long ?

THANKS BFirst welcome to the forums B. As you are runing and swimming along with the cycling, I have no idea whether you are doing to much or too little. Maybe someone who is into triathlon can answer your first question.
However, I can (or rather RapDaddyo can) answer your question regarding the 'easy between'. Right at the beginning of the Killing me thread on page 1 of 129 :D RapDaddyo wrote:



You will see huge results over time if you start logging some serious minutes at L4, even at the low end of L4 (91%FT). You just have to give it time. A riding buddy in my club took my advice last October and he has progressed from 225w to 309w without doing a single minute above L4. The main result of riding at a higher intensity is to decrease the minutes you can spend at the training level. And minutes at the training level is what it's all about. I laugh at all of these fancy interval protocols (e.g., 2x20 @ L4 w/5 mins recovery), especially the focus on the recovery time and duration. When I look at such protocols, I pay attention only to the time at level, in this case 40 mins at L4. I'm quite sure there are those who disagree (especially some coaches), but I'm not sure it matters whether you ride 5 mins at a recovery pace or go home and take a nap between intervals. What matters in the above protocol is the 40 mins at L4. And, unless you're riding ~3hrs a day at a high IF, I think all this talk of recovery days is a bunch of rubbish. I have people in my club ask me sometimes if they need a recovery day after a couple of 20 min intervals at L4. My honest reaction is, "Recover from what? That's not a workout, that's a warmup." Of course, I don't say this, but that's what I'm thinking.
I think that answers your question B. I base my recovery on how I feel after the first interval - 5 mins, 10 mins, who cares! Just get the intervals in.

Tyson ;)

Digressing; today I was out at 4.30am on the bike and from start to finish the turning on of the power was intoxicating.
Before I hit the mountains I have a 2 km very easy climb which I used to do at 17/18kmph. This slowly increased to 22kmph after starting power training.
This morning I flew up it with ease at 26kph.
The first mountain I hit as those who have followed the Killing thread know, is a nasty 15%er which I used to struggle up. This morning I had to hold myself back it felt so good, and was hardly breathing at the top. I'm now out of the saddle for most of this climb now, as I feel I get a lot more drive than sitting on the back of the saddle.
The rest of the ride on the climbs was the same - I drove all the way.
Must stop dropping LSD, I felt like I was flying.
After coming down the above climb on the way back, I then have a 2km plus dead flat bit, which a year and half ago I struggled to maintain 30kmph drafting behind a guy I met out on the course. This morning, without really piling on the power I was doing 37kph solo!

The power, the power http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/woohoo_21.gifit's getting to me again. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/scared1.gif

Starting in July, I plan to do my VO2Max sessions at 300-310 watts and hopefully shall be doing comfortable FT intervals at 275W. Also I'm hoping the gym in England when I go there (mid July) will be a lot cooler than the old fogey incubator I'm training in at the mo.
Maybe I'll then get a true FTP figure at last.:(

Hello I'm new to this forum , but not to cycling . I have been following this topic for the last couple of months. Started doing the 2x20 six weeks ago at 200watts, after taking it easy from an Ironman in April. My training has been like this:
mon- run 40 min to 1 hr , swim
tues-cycle 10min wup 1x20 at 225watts 5min easy 1x20 at 225 watts 5 min cooldown
weds-cycle 10 wup 50 min at 200watts 5min cool down
thurs- run 40min to 1hr , swim
fri-cycle 10min wup 1x20 at 225watts 5min easy 1x20 at 225 watts 5 min cooldown.
sat-run 1hr to 2hr.
sun- cycle 2-4 outside
Tues , Weds , Fri , cycling is inside on a fluid trainer , on ttbike with powertap.
Would like your thoughts if im doing enough , or to much , with the drills with watts , and if the easy between the 2x 20 is to long ?

THANKS BHave you done any testing to know what your FTP is, and therefore what your training levels and what wattage 2x20s should be ridden at? I think if you are just making it to the end of the second interval but it gets pretty tough, then it's about right. But if you are doing them relatively comfortably, then you might need to up the wattage. Same applies to your sweet spot riding on other days, with a known FTP, you can set that sweet spot wattage range nicely.

The rest time is good. The most common belief is that the 5 minute break in 2x20's is not for body recovery but a mental break. If you're doing your 20's @ threshold or just below, then in theory you should be able to do them for the 40 minutes straight.

Looking forward to hitting some 2x20's myself this week.

I meant to add to my last post, that if you have read the Killing Me thread and many other good threads in these forums relating to power training, and you still don't believe in the efficacy of said method, then more fool you - it's the way to go. Just getting on the bike and riding day after day is unlikely to produce the same results/rate of progress. I know, I did it and struggled to hold anybody's wheel never mind the holding the wheel of a guy in front riding at some 300 watts plus. ;) Tyson

No i have not done any FTP testing , just started at 200 watts the first time i did the 2x20 , and it was a little uncomfortable at the end. I was pretty wasted after my last race, my OCD behavior the last few year has been strong , so ive been pushing it, with no breaks. I am trying to start this a little conservative , so to not burn out. Thanks for the replys , some forums seem to draw a lot of
a!!holes.:)
THANKS BRUCE

Well, it's not like there aren't a handful of those here... BUT

You can sorta use the 20 min interval as testing, just by feeling out what you think you can handle for the 20 minutes while still getting through at an equal wattage on the second interval.

The only thing I would say though is that you'll push yourself harder and maybe more productively if you know what your FTP is (maybe higher than what you're using now) and you're working with the right set of numbers.

One of the main points out of the original "killing me" thread was that you could drop intensity down into the sweet spot, toss in a third interval and possibly gain superior adaptation working 3x20's at 91% - but if you're estimating FTP low, you'll start to lose some of that adaptation. So, FTP is a very important number to be "on the money" with when planning workouts around it.

Many of the ways of testing FTP also provide a good bike workout as well, so might as well just fit it in the schedule one week and get a good number to work with.