It Hasn't Killed Me After All...but

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As the “It’s killing me” thread has become unreadable with some 129 pages, I thought it about time to start a new thread – not unlike the “Killing me” thread, with the aim of possibly inspiring http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/newbie1.gif S and the older cyclists to start training in a structured way if not already doing so. The progress that can be made in a relatively short time is exhilarating.

I think I disappointed my guide and mentor RapDaddyo by not introducing the finer elements of structured training such as TTS (total training stress) etc. into my workouts. I think it is up to the individual to decide how far and how deep they wish to go with their training.

Anyway, it seems like only yesterday (actually 25Jan last year) that I wrote:





Anyway, today I took RDO's advice and attempted to find out my FT. Lo and behold it was as close to 130W as damn it. (130Watts for 1 hour)

On reflection, that figure of 130W must have brought a smile to the faces of many of the regulars in the forum.




To which RapDaddyo replied:




Now that you know your FT, you can fully apply Andy Coggan's training levels (see the table in the link I posted in your first thread). Again, I think you would make great progress working exclusively in level 4 (91%-105% of FT). You can do interval durations anywhere from 10 to 30 mins, but 20-30 mins is better.


And when I read the following now, I fall of my chair laughing.http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/chairfall1.gif





This week I've really got into 2 x 20 mins at 120 W as you suggested RD,and they felt awesome as you would say.


120Watts = awesome - OK whatever.



RD encouraged me by repeating –





Awesome!


A while later I responded to a post of RD’s.





You say you do your intervals at 214 - 248; can't imagine that at the mo.


I obviously didn’t have much imagination.



However, RD encouraged me by saying:



I'm going on record -- I say you will do 2x20 at 200w by May 15th.



Fortunately RD was a little out in his prediction, as on the 7th May 2006 I did the following workout:





And today another record tumbles.

1x20 @ 250W
1x10 @ 250W and with no rest 1x7 @ 240W




Fast forward to the present.



After detraining from the 3rd week in December and most of January.

(DO NOT DO THIS, IT TAKES AGES TO GET BACK TO WHERE YOU WERE BEFORE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU’RE A BIT LONG IN THE TOOTH LIKE ME.)



I started from the premise that 200 Watts was very easy for me. I likened it to ‘pedaling on rose petals’, and went right back to 230 Watt intervals in an attempt to make them like pedaling on rose petals. It was a little tough at first, but after a while they became very, very easy. Stepped it up to 245 Watts and almost from the first day they became very easy. So on to 255W intervals which also became relatively easy.

Remember these are not FTP (functional threshold Level 4 intervals, but somewhere in the L3 range)

I’m sure some in these forums will say, I should have trained at a higher wattage, but I enjoy training this way and find it a lot less stressful.



So where am I at this point in time. I have not tested my FTP so have no idea. At present I’m attempting to make 265Watts feel like cycling on rose petals.



Have done a few VO2Max workouts at 4X5 @ 290Watts.

Which brings me to today where I promised in the “Killing me” thread to reveal a special workout – the last workout in my tapering week before the Fukui 150KM ride on Sunday.



In keeping with the philosophy of doing high intensity but lower volume work in the tapering week, I opted to see how long I could hold 300 watts.



Last October I held it for 5 minutes and that was more than enough.



Today, with Blondie’s ‘hero’ blasting in my ears and the display covered up I set off into the unknown.



5 minutes came and went.



6 minutes



7 minutes



8,9 minutes



At this point the cadence was dropping of so I stood up on the trainer and ground out the last minute.



At 10 minutes I took a peek at the HRM which was at 167, and decided as this was probably getting near to my max and this is a tapering week, to call it a day.



So what did it prove. Although it isn’t 20min power and a long way off FTP, it gave me confidence; confident that I will before long achieve a 20 minute power of 300Watts.

An FTP of 300 watts?? Who knows!



There you have it in a nutshell; from an awesome 120 watts http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/nuts1.gif at the beginning of last year to 10 minutes at 300watts today in a greenhouse gym.

If I can do it, anyone can. As I head on towards 66 years old next year, believe me the above figures will be laughable.



So on your http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/bike1.gifand get pedaling.

Cheers! Tyson

Nice work Tyson.

I think I will be in a similar boat when I get back on the bike eventully but confident it will alll come back with a good plan, support and execution of course.

Cheers
Alex

My takeaways from Tyson:

1. Set firmly committed goals, short term and long term.

2. Develop, or have developed, a plan to get you from where you are, through your goals to the end.

3. TELL OTHER PEOPLE YOUR GOALS! You will NEVER be as accountable to yourself as you will to others.

4. Work, work, work.

5. Upon reaching a goal, SET THE NEXT ONE. If you're not moving forward, you're moving back. No natural thing is ever really standing still.

Awesome job Tyson!

and surround youself with positive people (like RD was for you), remove the detractors, they get you no-where.

Way to go Tyson!.... BTW there is a helpful acronym sticky:

TSS………………….TRAINING STRESS SCORE:)

My takeaways from Tyson:

1. Set firmly committed goals, short term and long term.

2. Develop, or have developed, a plan to get you from where you are, through your goals to the end.

3. TELL OTHER PEOPLE YOUR GOALS! You will NEVER be as accountable to yourself as you will to others.

4. Work, work, work.

5. Upon reaching a goal, SET THE NEXT ONE. If you're not moving forward, you're moving back. No natural thing is ever really standing still.

Awesome job Tyson!My takeaways from that thread were:

Quality is more important than quantity
SST intervals need to be 10 minutes and preferably 20 minutes long
Minimize junk miles when riding outside
Some days are better than others but you've got to take the long view and not get discouraged by days when the legs just don't have it
SST base work is basically year round, no need for months of small ring spinning in winter
Those concepts more than anything else changed my training after 20 years of traditional old school advice (including a lot from professional coaches) and have brought me to a fitness I only dreamed about back in the day.

-Dave

My take away from this is simply: Tyson You Are the Man!!

I think your motto could be: I'm not out to pasture, I'm out to destroy

Nice work Tyson.

I think I will be in a similar boat when I get back on the bike eventully but confident it will alll come back with a good plan, support and execution of course.

Cheers
AlexNice to hear from you Alex. Sorry to hear you're still in hospital, however, I'm sure once you get out it won't take you long to get back in the swing of things.
Any nice nurses there btw?;)

Nomad wrote:


3. TELL OTHER PEOPLE YOUR GOALS! You will NEVER be as accountable to yourself as you will to others.

Nomad, you've revealed my secret to all and sundry. :mad: :D But yes, although we are anonymous in this forum, it doesn't mean that you want to lose face in the eyes of other posters and lurkers.
Making a prediction certainly helps me strive towards my declared goals.
The 300 watt FTP ambition though, has certainly proved hard to achieve.
For many in these forums a 300watt FTP is childs play but not for me.
There's one hell of a difference between 200watts and 300watts.

Dave offered some real sound advice:


Quality is more important than quantity
SST intervals need to be 10 minutes and preferably 20 minutes long
Minimize junk miles when riding outside
Some days are better than others but you've got to take the long view and not get discouraged by days when the legs just don't have it
SST base work is basically year round, no need for months of small ring spinning in win
I can't argue with any of those, especially the first one.

LOL Wiredued you got me there. I always think of TTS as Total Training Stress.

Hey Feltrider, fortunately Lucy isn't around to see your I'm out to destroy Lucy would probably have put it something like, "I'm inadvertently going to find myself in front of other riders from time to time".:D

Thanks to all you guys for your encouragement. ;) Tyson

Nice to hear from you Alex. Sorry to hear you're still in hospital, however, I'm sure once you get out it won't take you long to get back in the swing of things.
Any nice nurses there btw?;)Thanks Tyson
Nurses (the women at least) are cute enough but all are taken I'm afraid, me being eligible and all, what a let down. They are all good staff though.

My surgeon told me this evening that I should be in rehab by early next week! Yipee:) Now to get through the next few days....

Thanks Tyson
Nurses (the women at least) are cute enough but all are taken I'm afraid, me being eligible and all, what a let down. They are all good staff though.

My surgeon told me this evening that I should be in rehab by early next week! Yipee:) Now to get through the next few days....
That's good news Alex. What's involved in the rehab, do you know?

Tyson in an earlier post you wrote:


......... For me, just some 3 months or so away from my 65th birthday, this ability to continuing improving, and knowing that I'm not plateauing yet is even sweeter. Proof of this statement barring any unforeseen cirumstances will be substantiated on the Wednesday prior to the Fukui (FU KU I - not FUK U I :D ) Gran Fondo on the 3rd June. Cool! Now I see the significance of the Wednesday prior to Sunday's Fukui. A new thread! And this one will take you (and us) to the next level!

I can't wait for the event......... Let the chase begin! It's here! All of those hours sweating in the greenhouse! What does the weather look like for Sunday?

My first aim is to get to the start early and set off in the first bunch of 20 riders. Maybe I won't be in that bunch very long but still..;) I can imagine this! A bunch of riders are staging in a ski area parking lot. This ain't the greenhouse baby! The sound of hundreds of riders clipping in. A lead group of 20 riders heads out. You're in it. The road snakes its way up, ....up, and......up and then the lead group you are in (and the group HUNDREDS of riders are following) disappears into a cloud!

Good luck Tyson! This will be an unforgettable ride!

Tyson in an earlier post you wrote:

Cool! Now I see the significance of the Wednesday prior to Sunday's Fukui. A new thread! And this one will take you (and us) to the next level!

It's here! All of those hours sweating in the greenhouse! What does the weather look like for Sunday?

I can imagine this! A bunch of riders are staging in a ski area parking lot. This ain't the greenhouse baby! The sound of hundreds of riders clipping in. A lead group of 20 riders heads out. You're in it. The road snakes its way up, ....up, and......up and then the lead group you are in (and the group HUNDREDS of riders are following) disappears into a cloud!

Good luck Tyson! This will be an unforgettable ride!
Last Wed, a student of mine, a nurse who should know better came to the
lesson with a stinking cold. Laughingly she said you'll definitely catch it.
I asked her to put on a mask, to which she replied that she didn't have one.
(a nurse?)
Yesterday I slept during the day for about 3 hours. I felt
tired all day yesterday, which I thought was strange because I didn't train
that hard on Wed and I had Thur off. Today (Sat) I still feel tired and my joints are a little sore.
I'll wait until 4 this afternoon before making a final decision, but it's
looking grim for tomorrow.
I'm so f....ing angry, I could spit. :mad: One selfish act by someone who definitely should have known better and all the build-up to the event down the drain. Pah! http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/tinkletinkle_/pi_supermad1.gif

Last Wed, a student of mine, a nurse who should know better came to the lesson with a stinking cold.A nurse eh? Sounds to me like a Ninja assassin dispatched by............ THE SMOKER!:eek:

I figure you're either out riding the Fukui with a cold or you are at home stewing. Either way its going to be "killin you"!

A challenge to the 2x20...

After reading this thread during the winter I started 2x20 training. I immediately felt strong and as the season started, it was noticeable, by my cycling friends, that I am strong(er) that last year and them...

but...

after a few weeks/months, my friends quickly got stronger, and I am back into my relative position, if I have to rank the group of friends I am riding with.

also,

when riding 50-100 miles endurance, it sounds (and feels) like different systems, mental, nutrition, etc come to play; not just power.

any comments?

A challenge to the 2x20...

After reading this thread during the winter I started 2x20 training. I immediately felt strong and as the season started, it was noticeable, by my cycling friends, that I am strong(er) that last year and them...

but...

after a few weeks/months, my friends quickly got stronger, and I am back into my relative position, if I have to rank the group of friends I am riding with.

also,

when riding 50-100 miles endurance, it sounds (and feels) like different systems, mental, nutrition, etc come to play; not just power.

any comments?
I, too, started doing the 2x20s about six months ago. However, the only races I do are time trials, 5 and 10K. My average power has definitely increased for 5, 10, and 20 minute sessions, while keeping my heart rate below max. Before I decided to follow the suggestions in this thread, I used to concentrate my training on shorter intervals (1 and 2 mile). I did become one of the top in my age group in the state (and based on comparative times and competitors) in the country, but I seemed to reach the level of diminishing returns for a year or more. I'll have a better idea of how much the 2x20s are helping until the state finals in December. But you might be right - at your distances the training effect of 2x20s might be less effective. Hey, it's all educated guesswork anyway.

A challenge to the 2x20...



when riding 50-100 miles endurance, it sounds (and feels) like different systems, mental, nutrition, etc come to play; not just power.

any comments?


It depends on the goals and demands of a particular race you are preparing for. 2x20 are great but you have to mix things up. If that is all you do, that is all you will get out of it. 2x20 wont make you the fastest 100 mile racer / rider in town. You go hard for 40 min and the race is 4 hours, you very well may have problems once you start burning matches.

To bring up my FTP, I had to up the L4 time to 3 hours ( 90% effort ). Then threw in some L5-6. You have to be willing to suffer a little to achieve a higher fitness. L4 are not exactly a suffer fest once you get use to them. After you get use to doing 30 min of L5, 100% L4 are cake for an hour. Just speaking from my experience. What works for me , may not for the other guy.

A challenge to the 2x20...
<snip>
when riding 50-100 miles endurance, it sounds (and feels) like different systems, mental, nutrition, etc come to play; not just power.

any comments?The purpose of 2x20's or any workout designed to improve functional threshold is not designed to improve endurance. For that you have to work the endurance systems. 2x20's, 3x20's or sweet spot training, or your pick of the poison is only a small part of the recipe.

If you're trying to cook up success for a longer distance road race, you're going to have to add more ingredients on the aerobic level - which means ride longer distances in the L1/L2 (coggan) ranges. This will help your body become more efficient at using its energy on longer distances.

If all you ever do is work your aerobic system for an hour, at the end of an hour you're going to start feeling the pain.

From 2005 thru 2006 I was Mr Endurance pace about 10 hours per week my 90 mile avg speed was low 13ish mph on rolling hills my FTP was about 211 watts. Since October 2006 I have been Mr 91-100%FTP 3x20min about 3hours per week my 90 mile avg speed is 15.4mph on rolling hills my FTP is 252 watts. I'm sure it could be better if I mixed it up a bit but 20 minutes of L4 is worth 2 hours of L2 IMHO.



A challenge to the 2x20...

After reading this thread during the winter I started 2x20 training. I immediately felt strong and as the season started, it was noticeable, by my cycling friends, that I am strong(er) that last year and them...

but...

after a few weeks/months, my friends quickly got stronger, and I am back into my relative position, if I have to rank the group of friends I am riding with.

also,

when riding 50-100 miles endurance, it sounds (and feels) like different systems, mental, nutrition, etc come to play; not just power.

any comments?

If you're trying to cook up success for a longer distance road race, you're going to have to add more ingredients on the aerobic level - which means ride longer distances in the L1/L2 (coggan) ranges. This will help your body become more efficient at using its energy on longer distances.

If all you ever do is work your aerobic system for an hour, at the end of an hour you're going to start feeling the pain.


I would think he would be better off skipping L1- L2. If he could build up to 2 and a half to 3 hours of SST or L3, L1 L2 would be a gimmie??

I would think he would be better off skipping L1- L2. If he could build up to 2 and a half to 3 hours of SST or L3, L1 L2 would be a gimmie??Yep, that's how I see it. Or more specifically I don't schedule the L1/L2 work(except perhaps for active rest days) but end up getting quite a bit of it while targeting higher level workouts. I really only schedule L3 and above for workouts but at the end of the week I still end up with plenty of L1/L2 time gathered as warmups, cooldowns and between harder efforts. I still tend to block my L3 work although I try for 45 minute to hour and a half blocks or whatever the roads, long climbs and traffic conditions allow. Then I take a mental break getting to the next climb, the next long stretch of road, etc and all that adds up to L1/L2 time on the bike.

I agree with all the folks that say you shouldn't target 100 mile races with 2x20's alone, but it's still the core of my schedule with L3/SST forming the endurance component. Sure I get plenty of L1/L2 if you look at power distributions over the training week, perhaps 40% of my time is spent in those levels but they're never the target workout for the day.
when riding 50-100 miles endurance, it sounds (and feels) like different systems, mental, nutrition, etc come to play; not just power.There's some truth to that, but not as much as you might think. Your FTP is still the best predictor of your performance at those longer distances, push that up higher and you'll be working at a lower percentage of FTP during your long rides, buring more stored fat than glycogen and overall working easier and more efficiently. But the longer rides in the weekly schedule do help you get used to being on the saddle for longer periods and help train your muscles to store more glycogen which pays off on long rides. Nutrition definitely plays a part in longer rides, but that's more a matter of discipline than training although the occasional long ride lets you fine tune your feeding strategy. Remember to start eating and drinking early in long rides and races if you want to do well at the end. It's easy to get caught up in the action and forget to eat or drink for the first hour or more and that will hurt you later in a long ride.

Anyway, I'm a huge fan of SST and L4 work as you probably know from my other posts but that doesn't mean I ignore longer L3 rides as a means to build endurance and CTL. But all the endurance in the world won't help in a race if your FTP and VO2max isn't high enough to weather the crunch times or hold pace with the leaders. It's a question of balancing the need for power with the need for endurance and fitting it all into a weekly schedule that still lets you recover. That's the art of this whole thing and it isn't the same for any two riders.

Good luck,
Dave