How do you increase long distance speed?

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Didn't we cover this several months ago?. If you do L4/Threshold work it will be slower than your best 10 k TT pace (20 minute efforts vs. 14-15 minute efforts) but at some point you should add L5/VO2 Max work which will be quite a bit faster than your 10K and 5K paces. Here's a response to your Intervals post from January: The L5 work should be built on a solid L4 and SST base but I'd have expected you to have already added a day a week of 3 to 5 minute intervals with equal rest periods like 5x5s or 8x3s. Do those above race pace but do them steady and at a pace you can sustain from beginning to end. It's the same stuff we've been talking about in this thread, it'll work your ability to deliver power at the top end of your aerobic range and its an energy system you'll most likely hit during the final minutes of your TTs if you've paced them well.

If you've still got competitions ahead this year and you haven't started them yet, I'd add an L5 day at the beginning of your training week. Work your hardest intervals then but keep the overall workout short. That should leave you plenty of juice for a longer L4/SST session the following day and then a L3 session to round out a 3 day block.

That's been my bread and butter training week for the last couple of months and it's working real nicely along with racing this time of year. I don't follow it like gospel if I've got an important event to taper for or feel flat or even if I feel extra good with nothing important on the weekend(I'll take the L3 session up into L4/SST when that happens). But it's still a good rough schedule to work around.

How are the TTs going?
-Dave
** Yes, that sounds good. And I apologize for making you repeat yourself - you know us little kids, you need to keep telling us the same thing over and over before it sticks! My TT season will start probably in October or November. I don't really race that much - all my training is really pointed toward one event, the state finals in December. (I really dislike the whole race experience: having to get up about seven hours before I typically do, trying to time the warmup properly, trying to time the poop(s) properly, forcing myself to ignore my body when it's assuring me it's about to die, etc. But I do like having done it.)

But it still seems to me that if I want to average X mph in a TT, then at least some of my training should involve going that speed or a little faster. So is that false, or should I also be doing some faster, shorter intervals to add to the 20-minute ones?No it's not false. Yes you should include shorter efforts. The trick is what, how many and when.;)

It's pretty normal to feel sore two days after a hard workout. I read somewhere that two days is about when the inflammation from all the muscular microdamage peaks and that's what we feel. Whatever the reason a lot of folks prefer an active rest spin day to total time off the bike as it helps loosen things up a bit.

The key is to be disciplined and honest with yourself if you do on the bike rest days. No chasing down or hanging with other faster riders, no jamming that one hill or sprinting for the city limits sign just 'cause you feel like it. You're supposed to rest on rest days so you can train hard on training days and mixing the two is a bad idea. If you can really just go out and spin with very light pedal pressure(L1 in Coggan's schema but I don't know what zone system you use, there are several) and maintain easy effort for half an hour to an hour than great but don't fall into the trap of adding a bit more to rest days and then having to back off a bit for your real training days. That leads to mediocre training and poor results. If you can't make yourself go slow and easy on rest days then just stay off the bike.

I could definitely keep it in check it's just that it seems to me that if you've taxed your system (micro-tears in the muscles, etc) then you're in a negative state and even light riding could start leading to over-training. So that's why I was wondering how active-recovery could work and avoid that.

Also, I've seen numerous suggestions that I do around 2 hours of recovery riding (and at levels of zone 1-zone 2, or 60-70% MHR) which just sounds counter-intuitive. I'd have thought maybe 30 minutes or so would be the max to avoid over-training. Anything, no matter how un-strenuous will eventually tax your system. Am I thinking the right way on this?

Thanks again!

Why would one be doing L5/VO2 work 5-6 weeks out from a targeted event? My understanding was that L5 is ideal for "topping off" L4/SST sessions, and as such, to be done in the week(s) before the event?

What would be the ideal scenario in the 6 weeks leading up to a targeted ride?

Thanks.

B

Why would one be doing L5/VO2 work 5-6 weeks out from a targeted event? My understanding was that L5 is ideal for "topping off" L4/SST sessions, and as such, to be done in the week(s) before the event?

What would be the ideal scenario in the 6 weeks leading up to a targeted ride?

Thanks.

B

I think you might get a better answer if you started a new thread for this. :)

...What would be the ideal scenario in the 6 weeks leading up to a targeted ride?...6 weeks is roughly the time it takes for the average person to fully adapt to an increased training load. I'd seen that number quoted over the years but was reminded of how it applies to cycling in some posts by Andy et al on these forums earlier this spring. I've also seen posts by the same folks and others saying L6 speed work can yield good results in shorter time frames. There was even a post on the wattage forums by Andy suggesting L7 NM work can have such quick results that riders can see improvement from Saturday to Sunday during a weekend of racing. I take it that's the neuro side of neuromuscular that can show such rapid improvement.

Anyway, Timan and others recommend starting L5 work about 6 weeks out and as I understand it that number is supported by typical adaptation times.

-Dave

** Yes, that sounds good. And I apologize for making you repeat yourself - ...No worries. One more thought. It seems from your posts that you assume your fitness and resulting speeds will stay static. You talk about doing L4 work at a certain speed relative to your best race speeds to date. Hopefully your fitness will improve and you'll be able to put out more power and therefore more speed over time for the same level workout.

So you might have been riding L4 20 minute repeats at say 250 watts and 24 mph in January but by October and the start of your TT season those same L4 repeats might be at 290 watts and 26 mph. They'd still be L4 efforts relative to your (hopefully) increasing FTP but they'd be faster than your previous best race efforts. The L5 work we talked about can definitely help your high end and is useful but even staying with L4/SST work you should be seeing improvements in sustainable power and with it sustainable speed for the same relative effort.

Just keep in mind any of these training level suggestions are relative to your current fitness and as your fitness increases so must your power output to continue training at the same level. As Lemond said "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster..."

-Dave

6 weeks is roughly the time it takes for the average person to fully adapt to an increased training load. I'd seen that number quoted over the years but was reminded of how it applies to cycling in some posts by Andy et al on these forums earlier this spring.

Question: I've actually usually seen programs that suggest 4 hard weeks then 1 week light/off before starting up again. What's the rationale behind it being 6 weeks (or 4 or whatever)?

Question: I've actually usually seen programs that suggest 4 hard weeks then 1 week light/off before starting up again. What's the rationale behind it being 6 weeks (or 4 or whatever)?Uhhh, I've just offered the rationale 6 weeks is roughly the time it takes for the average person to fully adapt to an increased training load. You've apparently seen a different number. I'm not going to dig into the research for you, Google is your friend :) Try "VO2 max adaptation weeks" or "adaptation half lives VO2 training" or other variations on that theme.

FWIW 6 weeks also represents the default CTL time constant in the WKO+ Performance Manager. IOW your current fitness is heavily influenced by what you've done for the last 42 days or 6 weeks. Check posts on these forums as well as elsewhere, I'm sure there was a discussion here earlier this spring on the subject.

-Dave

* bump* For some great info from the VERY knowledgable daveryanwyoming.

25.1mph=434.75w......Lance Armstrong FTP maybe

Given that at the end of 5 hour stages in the Dauphine, during his Tour build up, he was hold ~495 watts for a 35 minute climb, that FTP you posted may be a little on the 'low' side for Lance.

Sickening isn't it.

LOL

Yeah, ton of great info...Thank you. I'm in about the same boat...no PM, and actually no HR Monitor either, but it doesn't sound like its worth it to get one anyway.

KK speed to power chart
21.6mph=306.45wThis is my first time actually seeing speed as it relates to power. How would that list be interpreted?
I've been doing a 10 Mile TT...to date 21.6mph is my fasted average time. Does that mean that I averaged 306w for the ride? ...or am I way off base.

I've been doing a 10 Mile TT...to date 21.6mph is my fasted average time. Does that mean that I averaged 306w for the ride? ...or am I way off base.
I don't know about you, because you could have different CdA, but when I ride at 21,6 mph (34,5 km/h) - with no wind and in flat - I'm outputting more or less 220W.

Yeah, ton of great info...Thank you. I'm in about the same boat...no PM, and actually no HR Monitor either, but it doesn't sound like its worth it to get one anyway.

This is my first time actually seeing speed as it relates to power. How would that list be interpreted?
I've been doing a 10 Mile TT...to date 21.6mph is my fasted average time. Does that mean that I averaged 306w for the ride? ...or am I way off base.
For your average sized guy (5ft 10 to 6ft), on a road bike on the drops holding a good tuck, you're looking at around 300watts for 25mph. The wattage comes down quite a bit if you have tri/aero bars, aero helmet and a well fitting skinsuit.

Yeah, ton of great info...Thank you. I'm in about the same boat...no PM, and actually no HR Monitor either, but it doesn't sound like its worth it to get one anyway.

This is my first time actually seeing speed as it relates to power. How would that list be interpreted?
I've been doing a 10 Mile TT...to date 21.6mph is my fasted average time. Does that mean that I averaged 306w for the ride? ...or am I way off base.This speed to power conversion list applies ONLY to riding on the Kurt Kinetic trainer, which is said to mimic riding up a 1% grade in windless conditions. You can go here (http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html) and make speed calculations based on power.

Wow, this is so simple, yet people get so damn complicated.

Dude, just get out there and hurt yourself. Best way is to ride with others who are much faster than you. But all you really need to do is to ride like an animal, from 1 minute intervals up to 6 hours sustained. Don't forget to take easy days.

This speed to power conversion list applies ONLY to riding on the Kurt Kinetic trainerOk...that makes sense. I dunno, for some odd reason it sounded crazy that I was putting out an average over 300w. I'm just begining to get into racing and trying to get some kind of organized training. From what I've read and stuff...just seemed high. Anyway...thanks for clarifying.