Re: OT: joining the ranks of two wheelers again

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Brent P wrote:
> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>> Brent P wrote:
>>> On 2008-05-04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Really? I start to brake when someone moves into the space ahead of me
>>>> to maintain following distance.
>>> And you probably wonder why there is traffic congestion too.
>>>
>> Overbreeding.
>
> Um no. try braking waves.
>
Almost none of the bad behavior exists in low traffic areas, or during
periods of low traffic in urban areas. If people had not over bred,
there would be fewer people driving on the roads, no?

Basically, in the US there is the same road system as 30 years ago with
almost half again as many people. See the connection?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> Brent P wrote:
>> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Brent P wrote:
>>>> On 2008-05-04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Really? I start to brake when someone moves into the space ahead of me
>>>>> to maintain following distance.
>>>> And you probably wonder why there is traffic congestion too.
>>>>
>>> Overbreeding.
>>
>> Um no. try braking waves.

> Almost none of the bad behavior exists in low traffic areas, or during
> periods of low traffic in urban areas.

Funny, I had someone intentionally cut me off this morning while he was
going a good deal slower than me and then when I used the horn thinking
he was just a unaware he flipped me off, which told me it was
intentional. We were the only two people on the road, he just didn't
want me to pass him. It's not odd to come across these people on the
'open road' IME.

I've had all sorts of things happen on the 'open road' while bicycling.

Anyway, the road system isn't even operating at close to capacity
because of bad drivers, first the MFFY types, second those who enable
them. (hint, braking anytime anyone threatens to come over into your
lane is enabling)

Brent P wrote:
> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>> Brent P wrote:
>>> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Brent P wrote:
>>>>> On 2008-05-04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Really? I start to brake when someone moves into the space ahead of me
>>>>>> to maintain following distance.
>>>>> And you probably wonder why there is traffic congestion too.
>>>>>
>>>> Overbreeding.
>>> Um no. try braking waves.
>
>> Almost none of the bad behavior exists in low traffic areas, or during
>> periods of low traffic in urban areas.
>
> Funny, I had someone intentionally cut me off this morning while he was
> going a good deal slower than me and then when I used the horn thinking
> he was just a unaware he flipped me off, which told me it was
> intentional. We were the only two people on the road, he just didn't
> want me to pass him. It's not odd to come across these people on the
> 'open road' IME.

Such incidents have become much more common with overcrowding.

> I've had all sorts of things happen on the 'open road' while bicycling.
>
> Anyway, the road system isn't even operating at close to capacity
> because of bad drivers, first the MFFY types, second those who enable
> them. (hint, braking anytime anyone threatens to come over into your
> lane is enabling)
>
No, I brake when someone actually comes over into my lane.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> Brent P wrote:
>> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Brent P wrote:
>>>> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Brent P wrote:
>>>>>> On 2008-05-04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really? I start to brake when someone moves into the space ahead of me
>>>>>>> to maintain following distance.
>>>>>> And you probably wonder why there is traffic congestion too.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Overbreeding.
>>>> Um no. try braking waves.
>>
>>> Almost none of the bad behavior exists in low traffic areas, or during
>>> periods of low traffic in urban areas.
>>
>> Funny, I had someone intentionally cut me off this morning while he was
>> going a good deal slower than me and then when I used the horn thinking
>> he was just a unaware he flipped me off, which told me it was
>> intentional. We were the only two people on the road, he just didn't
>> want me to pass him. It's not odd to come across these people on the
>> 'open road' IME.
>
> Such incidents have become much more common with overcrowding.

You just said they were rare in light traffic. They are not. It is due
to the overall MFFY aspect of modern american society and the way we are
all told to simply back down and 'just let them do it'.

>> I've had all sorts of things happen on the 'open road' while bicycling.

>> Anyway, the road system isn't even operating at close to capacity
>> because of bad drivers, first the MFFY types, second those who enable
>> them. (hint, braking anytime anyone threatens to come over into your
>> lane is enabling)

> No, I brake when someone actually comes over into my lane.

Even when that person is accelerating away from you?

In article <8eqdncOW5p8JwIPVnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> And yet you refuse to answer the question of how a bicyclist prevents
>>> someone from doing a swoop and squat on him when that person is willing
>>> to pass illegally.
>>>
>> Top tube mounted RPG.
>
>Reaction force is a bitch on a bicycle.

Not a lot of reaction force from an RPG... backblast, on the other
hand, is going to be a serious problem. If you thought bicycle SEATS
were hard on the nads....
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

In article <fvlmth$82v$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>Brent P wrote:
>>
>Almost none of the bad behavior exists in low traffic areas, or during
>periods of low traffic in urban areas.

Wrong. It's just easier for other drivers to avoid and/or mitigate
during those times.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

On May 5, 3:16 pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
wrote:
> In article <8eqdncOW5p8JwIPVnZ2dnUVZ_vSdn...@comcast.com>,
> Brent P  <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> And yet you refuse to answer the question of how a bicyclist prevents
> >>> someone from doing a swoop and squat on him when that person is willing
> >>> to pass illegally.
>
> >> Top tube mounted RPG.
>
> >Reaction force is a bitch on a bicycle.
>
> Not a lot of reaction force from an RPG... backblast, on the other
> hand, is going to be a serious problem.  If you thought bicycle SEATS
> were hard on the nads....

My harbles are hurting just thinking about that... (and your seat
shouldn't really be affecting your junk; if it is, you need to either
adjust or replace it...)

along similar lines, though, in this month's Hemmings Muscle Machines
which I finally got a chance to flip through last night while manning
the grill, there's a short blurb on a vintage drag racer equipped with
a rear axle with *integral rocket motor* - seriously. This was
apparently marketed as an aftermarket "performance" part at one point
in time. Might be just the ticket for those numbnuts that insist on
tailgating in the right hand lane...

nate

Brent P wrote:
> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>> Brent P wrote:
>>> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Brent P wrote:
>>>>> On 2008-05-05, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Brent P wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2008-05-04, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really? I start to brake when someone moves into the space ahead of me
>>>>>>>> to maintain following distance.
>>>>>>> And you probably wonder why there is traffic congestion too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overbreeding.
>>>>> Um no. try braking waves.
>>>
>>>> Almost none of the bad behavior exists in low traffic areas, or during
>>>> periods of low traffic in urban areas.
>>> Funny, I had someone intentionally cut me off this morning while he was
>>> going a good deal slower than me and then when I used the horn thinking
>>> he was just a unaware he flipped me off, which told me it was
>>> intentional. We were the only two people on the road, he just didn't
>>> want me to pass him. It's not odd to come across these people on the
>>> 'open road' IME.
>> Such incidents have become much more common with overcrowding.
>
> You just said they were rare in light traffic. They are not. It is due
> to the overall MFFY aspect of modern american society and the way we are
> all told to simply back down and 'just let them do it'.
>
Tell that to the guy in the Lexus who tried to jump my turn at the 4-way
stop. I would have hit him if he had not rightfully backed down. :)
Defensive driving is another term for let the jerks win.

>>> I've had all sorts of things happen on the 'open road' while bicycling.
>
>>> Anyway, the road system isn't even operating at close to capacity
>>> because of bad drivers, first the MFFY types, second those who enable
>>> them. (hint, braking anytime anyone threatens to come over into your
>>> lane is enabling)
>
>> No, I brake when someone actually comes over into my lane.
>
> Even when that person is accelerating away from you?

It depends on how close and what the speed differential is.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On May 3, 3:28 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2008-05-03, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> For the record, I actually enjoy riding. It's just the
>> attitude and stupidity of the r.b.whatever posters that
>> pushes my fur backwards.
> It's the same reason you'll won't see me at critical mass
> despite my belief in bicyclists' right to use the road as
> any other vehicle user.

=v= What bizarre statements. As far as I can tell, the
r.b.* newsgroups don't have a whole lot of CMers in them.
I've been to a lot of CMs over the last 15 years, and not
one of them had the remotest resemblance to any Usenet
newsgroup.
<_Jym_>

---------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==--------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

On 2008-05-07, Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org> wrote:
> On May 3, 3:28 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2008-05-03, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> For the record, I actually enjoy riding. It's just the
>>> attitude and stupidity of the r.b.whatever posters that
>>> pushes my fur backwards.

>> It's the same reason you'll won't see me at critical mass
>> despite my belief in bicyclists' right to use the road as
>> any other vehicle user.

>=v= What bizarre statements. As far as I can tell, the
> r.b.* newsgroups don't have a whole lot of CMers in them.
> I've been to a lot of CMs over the last 15 years, and not
> one of them had the remotest resemblance to any Usenet
> newsgroup.

I was refering to the 'us' vs. 'them' attitude.

On May 6, 9:48 pm, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:
> On May 3, 3:28 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2008-05-03, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> For the record, I actually enjoy riding.  It's just the
> >> attitude and stupidity of the r.b.whatever posters that
> >> pushes my fur backwards.
> > It's the same reason you'll won't see me at critical mass
> > despite my belief in bicyclists' right to use the road as
> > any other vehicle user.
>
> =v= What bizarre statements.  As far as I can tell, the
> r.b.* newsgroups don't have a whole lot of CMers in them.
> I've been to a lot of CMs over the last 15 years, and not
> one of them had the remotest resemblance to any Usenet
> newsgroup.

I see a lot of the same attitude. There's quite a few r.b.* posters
that display a rabid anti-car position, without ever admitting to the
possibility that sometimes a car might be an appropriate mode of
transport and constantly stating that they believe that bicycles
should be given preferential treatment. Not realizing or caring, of
course, that they are displaying the exact same attitude that less
considerate motorists display toward them, and fostering an
antagonistic relationship.

FWIW I think Critical Ass does a huge disservice to cycling by also
fostering an antagonistic relationship and doing absolutely nothing
toward the goal of making the roads more usable for all. A bunch of
guys on bikes acting like jerks is only going to make motorists expect
guys on bikes to act like jerks.

nate

N8N wrote:
> I see a lot of the same attitude. There's quite a few r.b.* posters
> that display a rabid anti-car position, without ever admitting to the
> possibility that sometimes a car might be an appropriate mode of
> transport and constantly stating that they believe that bicycles
> should be given preferential treatment.

I think you're paying too much heed to a very vocal, irrational
minority. People tend not to speak out against that kind of banter b/c
we've all been done that road before and it goes nowhere. Why get
sucked into the same argument again?

Just my 2 cents.
--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

On May 7, 7:06 pm, "Paul M. Hobson" <fob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
> N8N wrote:
> > I see a lot of the same attitude. There's quite a few r.b.* posters
> > that display a rabid anti-car position, without ever admitting to the
> > possibility that sometimes a car might be an appropriate mode of
> > transport and constantly stating that they believe that bicycles
> > should be given preferential treatment.
>
> I think you're paying too much heed to a very vocal, irrational
> minority. People tend not to speak out against that kind of banter b/c
> we've all been done that road before and it goes nowhere. Why get
> sucked into the same argument again?
>
> Just my 2 cents.


You may be correct - and I certainly believe that the majority of
people that I see riding bikes also own cars. However, the overall
tone of the Usenet groups, depending on day, can swing violently anti-
car. As I'm sure regular RAD readers know, I'd probably have a really
hard time going completely car-free, not just because I'm a little on
the out of shape side and have a long-ish commute (but fairly short
and easy for the are, thank God,) but because I genuinely enjoy cars
(especially old, obscure, and especially fast ones) and driving them,
so often I either will have to call someone out on their comments or
else just shut up but feel somewhat like an intruder (when reading
r.b.* that is; if I see comments like that in RAD I consider them
flamebait and/or trollspew.)

Just for the record, I must be somewhat nuts because I have started to
think about how I could possibly commute by bike if I really wanted to
try it. It's about 17 miles each way by car but mostly freeway, so
would probably be 20+ by MUP and an assortment of surface streets,
finishing up on a 55 MPH semi-rural two lane. And, of course, if I
did this, I'd have to do it *every day* because I need my car during
the day to visit job sites, so I'd have to either leave it at the
office or else drive one of my own cars (for which I'd have to
actually pay for the gas...) However, it does seem like there's not
enough time in the day to get in more than an hour or so of riding if
I *don't* commute... yup, I probably won't ever do it but I think
just considering it makes me certifiable.

nate

N8N wrote:
> Just for the record, I must be somewhat nuts because I have started to
> think about how I could possibly commute by bike if I really wanted to
> try it. It's about 17 miles each way by car but mostly freeway, so
> would probably be 20+ by MUP and an assortment of surface streets,
> finishing up on a 55 MPH semi-rural two lane. And, of course, if I
> did this, I'd have to do it *every day* because I need my car during
> the day to visit job sites, so I'd have to either leave it at the
> office or else drive one of my own cars (for which I'd have to
> actually pay for the gas...) However, it does seem like there's not
> enough time in the day to get in more than an hour or so of riding if
> I *don't* commute... yup, I probably won't ever do it but I think
> just considering it makes me certifiable.

When my intern/co-op office moved away from the city and into the
'burbs*, I often toyed with the idea of driving to work, but then riding
home in the afternoon. Then the next day, ride to work, drive home, etc.

It never happened b/c I was brand new to cycling, the office was 25
miles away, and suburban Atlanta during rush hour is *not* where anyone
wants to be on a bike. [shudder]

I don't know if this is plausible for you, but something to consider,
perhaps.


* moved from a 5 minutes walk from a train station to Cobb Co., GA --
Newt's old district. I endured the commute since I'd only be there for
3 more months.
--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

N8N aka Nate Nagel wrote:
> [...]
> Just for the record, I must be somewhat nuts because I have started to
> think about how I could possibly commute by bike if I really wanted to
> try it. It's about 17 miles each way by car but mostly freeway, so
> would probably be 20+ by MUP and an assortment of surface streets,
> finishing up on a 55 MPH semi-rural two lane. And, of course, if I
> did this, I'd have to do it *every day* because I need my car during
> the day to visit job sites, so I'd have to either leave it at the
> office or else drive one of my own cars (for which I'd have to
> actually pay for the gas...) However, it does seem like there's not
> enough time in the day to get in more than an hour or so of riding if
> I *don't* commute... yup, I probably won't ever do it but I think
> just considering it makes me certifiable.
>
With a shorter workday (<10 hours) and showers at work, that would be a
fun situation.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

>> N8N wrote:
>>> Just for the record, I must be somewhat nuts because I have started to
>>> think about how I could possibly commute by bike if I really wanted to
>>> try it. It's about 17 miles each way by car but mostly freeway, so
>>> would probably be 20+ by MUP and an assortment of surface streets,
>>> finishing up on a 55 MPH semi-rural two lane. And, of course, if I
>>> did this, I'd have to do it *every day* because I need my car during
>>> the day to visit job sites, so I'd have to either leave it at the
>>> office or else drive one of my own cars (for which I'd have to
>>> actually pay for the gas...) However, it does seem like there's not
>>> enough time in the day to get in more than an hour or so of riding if
>>> I *don't* commute... yup, I probably won't ever do it but I think
>>> just considering it makes me certifiable.

> On May 7, 8:18 pm, "Paul M. Hobson" <fob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
>> When my intern/co-op office moved away from the city and into the
>> 'burbs*, I often toyed with the idea of driving to work, but then riding
>> home in the afternoon. Then the next day, ride to work, drive home, etc.


N8N wrote:
> sounds possible, but the problem for me would be if I did that I'd be
> without a car during the day 2 or 3 days a week, ...

You misunderstand. The car would always be at the office while you are.

Monday: Drive to work, ride home, leave car.
Tuesday: Ride to work, take car home.
Wednesday: Drive to work, ride home, leave car.
Thursday: Ride to work, drive home.
Friday: Ride/ride or drive/drive.


--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

On Wed, 7 May 2008 08:11:15 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com>
wrote of the montly Critidal Mass and concluded:
\snip
> A bunch of
>guys on bikes acting like jerks is only going to make motorists expect
>guys on bikes to act like jerks.

Cyclists encounter bunches of jerks in cars every day. Why would you
expect them to regard drivers as anything but jerks?
--
zk

Zoot Katz wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 08:11:15 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com>
> wrote of the montly Critidal Mass and concluded:
> \snip
>
>> A bunch of
>> guys on bikes acting like jerks is only going to make motorists expect
>> guys on bikes to act like jerks.
>>
>
> Cyclists encounter bunches of jerks in cars every day. Why would you
> expect them to regard drivers as anything but jerks?
>
I don't consider myself to be a jerk in spite of the fact that I drive
many many miles per year in my car...

I don't consider myself to be a jerk in site of the fact that I
frequently ride my bicycle on the roads and occasionally take the lane
when necessary...

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

On May 8, 1:57 am, Zoot Katz <zootk...@operamail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 08:11:15 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njna...@hotmail.com>
> wrote of the montly Critidal Mass and concluded:
> \snip
>
> > A bunch of
> >guys on bikes acting like jerks is only going to make motorists expect
> >guys on bikes to act like jerks.
>
> Cyclists encounter bunches of jerks in cars every day. Why would you
> expect them to regard drivers as anything but jerks?

Because that's a generalization based on the behavior of a subset
(granted, a significant one. I'll give you that - to state that there
aren't a whole mess of idiots behind the wheels of cars would be
disingenuous at best) of the population known as "drivers." And, of
course, if you don't want cyclists to be generalized in the same way,
encouraging cyclists not to be equally offensive would be a good place
to start. Not saying that they all are; but if I were trying to get
through an area in my car that was all clogged up by a Critical Ass
ride, I might not be feeling particularly charitable towards cyclists
in general at that point in time.

nate

On May 7, 9:29 pm, "Paul M. Hobson" <fob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
> >> N8N wrote:
> >>> Just for the record, I must be somewhat nuts because I have started to
> >>> think about how I could possibly commute by bike if I really wanted to
> >>> try it.  It's about 17 miles each way by car but mostly freeway, so
> >>> would probably be 20+ by MUP and an assortment of surface streets,
> >>> finishing up on a 55 MPH semi-rural two lane.  And, of course, if I
> >>> did this, I'd have to do it *every day* because I need my car during
> >>> the day to visit job sites, so I'd have to either leave it at the
> >>> office or else drive one of my own cars (for which I'd have to
> >>> actually pay for the gas...)  However, it does seem like there's not
> >>> enough time in the day to get in more than an hour or so of riding if
> >>> I *don't* commute...  yup, I probably won't ever do it but I think
> >>> just considering it makes me certifiable.
>
>  > On May 7, 8:18 pm, "Paul M. Hobson" <fob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> >> When my intern/co-op office moved away from the city and into the
> >> 'burbs*, I often toyed with the idea of driving to work, but then riding
> >> home in the afternoon.  Then the next day, ride to work, drive home, etc.
> N8N wrote:
> > sounds possible, but the problem for me would be if I did that I'd be
> > without a car during the day 2 or 3 days a week, ...
>
> You misunderstand.  The car would always be at the office while you are.
>
> Monday: Drive to work, ride home, leave car.
> Tuesday: Ride to work, take car home.
> Wednesday: Drive to work, ride home, leave car.
> Thursday: Ride to work, drive home.
> Friday: Ride/ride or drive/drive.
>
> --
> Paul M. Hobson
> .:change the f to ph to reply:.

Ah, I see what you're saying, but that would imply being able to carry
the bike in the car. My company car is a POS Chevy Impala, and as I
found when I purchased said bike, one needs to remove BOTH wheels to
fit it in either the back seat or the trunk - the seat doesn't fold
down. Kind of a PITA, but I could do it.

nate