Parity is a nice concept, but this is ridiculous

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Bikerecker

The 100K classic in Atlanta next weekend is part of a $66,000, 3 day omnium, with two races in
Columbus, GA, and a circuit race in Marietta, finishing on the long downhill in front of the
Whitewater Adventure water park. The race is held in conjunction with the 10K Classic foot race, one
of the bigger running events in the country.

Get this: the P,1 men do 100K on the Monday cicuit race, racing for $10,000 over 35 places, plus
serious Omnium cash.

The women get $10,000 over 35 places, and their distance is 10K. 1 lap. I **** thee not. Last year,
23 women showed up, according to a cat 2 female friend of mine. Beyond comprehension. This bizarre
cash distribution will not keep me from racing, but it is remarkable (to say the least). If I can
put drop bars on my wife's Schwinn hybrid and cajole her into taking a 6 mile road ride, one of us
might make some $ this weekend.

www.gobike1.com

Greg considering a weekend of transvestite activity

Tritonrider

>From: bikerecker@aol.com (Bikerecker)

>Greg considering a weekend of transvestite activity
>

It wouldn't be hard to claim you were Tammy's cousin and rake in some cash. Bill C

Andre

Freaking ridiculous. Don't get me started on this subject.

--
--------------------------
Andre Charlebois BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+ webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick www.TriNB.com
"Bikerecker" <bikerecker@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030825215638.02571.00000419@mb-m23.aol.com...
> The 100K classic in Atlanta next weekend is part of a $66,000, 3 day
omnium,
> with two races in Columbus, GA, and a circuit race in Marietta, finishing
on
> the long downhill in front of the Whitewater Adventure water park. The
race
> is held in conjunction with the 10K Classic foot race, one of the bigger running events in the
> country.
>
> Get this: the P,1 men do 100K on the Monday cicuit race, racing for
$10,000
> over 35 places, plus serious Omnium cash.
>
> The women get $10,000 over 35 places, and their distance is 10K. 1 lap.
I
> **** thee not. Last year, 23 women showed up, according to a cat 2 female friend of mine. Beyond
> comprehension. This bizarre cash distribution will
not
> keep me from racing, but it is remarkable (to say the least). If I can
put
> drop bars on my wife's Schwinn hybrid and cajole her into taking a 6 mile
road
> ride, one of us might make some $ this weekend.
>
> www.gobike1.com
>
> Greg considering a weekend of transvestite activity

Andy Coggan

I agree: only 1 lap/10k for the women is "freaking ridiculous". There race should be just as long as
the men's.

Andy Coggan

"Andre" <agcharl@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:u5V2b.280127$4UE.271424@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Freaking ridiculous. Don't get me started on this subject.
>
> --
> --------------------------
> Andre Charlebois BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+ webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick www.TriNB.com
> "Bikerecker" <bikerecker@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030825215638.02571.00000419@mb-m23.aol.com...
> > The 100K classic in Atlanta next weekend is part of a $66,000, 3 day
> omnium,
> > with two races in Columbus, GA, and a circuit race in Marietta,
finishing
> on
> > the long downhill in front of the Whitewater Adventure water park. The
> race
> > is held in conjunction with the 10K Classic foot race, one of the bigger running events in the
> > country.
> >
> > Get this: the P,1 men do 100K on the Monday cicuit race, racing for
> $10,000
> > over 35 places, plus serious Omnium cash.
> >
> > The women get $10,000 over 35 places, and their distance is 10K. 1 lap.
> I
> > **** thee not. Last year, 23 women showed up, according to a cat 2
female
> > friend of mine. Beyond comprehension. This bizarre cash distribution
will
> not
> > keep me from racing, but it is remarkable (to say the least). If I can
> put
> > drop bars on my wife's Schwinn hybrid and cajole her into taking a 6
mile
> road
> > ride, one of us might make some $ this weekend.
> >
> > www.gobike1.com
> >
> > Greg considering a weekend of transvestite activity

Andy Coggan

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ub03b.5481$3E.543@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> There race should be just as long as the men's.

Man, I got up to early this morning....

"Their race should be just as long as the men's."

Andy Coggan

Rick

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<ub03b.5481$3E.543@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> I agree: only 1 lap/10k for the women is "freaking ridiculous". There race should be just as long
> as the men's.
>
> Andy Coggan
>

If not as long, at least less payout.

Rick in Tennessee

John Forrest To

"rick" <cycledogg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> If not as long, at least less payout.

I don't understand the logic of this. The women get less racing and you also want to have them get
less money? That's a double whammy.

Longer racing is good -- if they're going to get less of that "service" then don't work against then
on prizes too.

JT

Ewoud Dronkert

On 27 Aug 2003 06:21:40 -0700, rick wrote:
> Rick in Tennessee

You moved from Ohio?

Pedalchick

But T-mobile is footing the bill, so it must be right, right?

I'm quite certain that more than 23 women will be there this year, considering the purse. I doubt
very seriously your wife would get in the money on her Schwinn. Please. The logic behind a 10k race
is beyond comprehension, yes, but this late in the season it is much more appealing than, say, 100k
with a bunch of nasty climbs which is the alternative on the east coast that weekend.

bikerecker@aol.com (Bikerecker) wrote in message
news:<20030825215638.02571.00000419@mb-m23.aol.com>...
> The 100K classic in Atlanta next weekend is part of a $66,000, 3 day omnium, with two races in
> Columbus, GA, and a circuit race in Marietta, finishing on the long downhill in front of the
> Whitewater Adventure water park. The race is held in conjunction with the 10K Classic foot race,
> one of the bigger running events in the country.
>
> Get this: the P,1 men do 100K on the Monday cicuit race, racing for $10,000 over 35 places, plus
> serious Omnium cash.
>
> The women get $10,000 over 35 places, and their distance is 10K. 1 lap. I **** thee not. Last
> year, 23 women showed up, according to a cat 2 female friend of mine. Beyond comprehension. This
> bizarre cash distribution will not keep me from racing, but it is remarkable (to say the least).
> If I can put drop bars on my wife's Schwinn hybrid and cajole her into taking a 6 mile road ride,
> one of us might make some $ this weekend.
>
> www.gobike1.com
>
> Greg considering a weekend of transvestite activity

Andy Coggan

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eD03b.5485$3E.646@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:ub03b.5481$3E.543@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > There race should be just as long as the men's.
>
> Man, I got up to early this morning....

Man, I *really* got up too early this morning!

Andy Coggan

Steven

bikerecker@aol.com (Bikerecker) wrote in message
news:<20030825215638.02571.00000419@mb-m23.aol.com>...
> The 100K classic in Atlanta next weekend is part of a $66,000, 3 day omnium, with two races in
> Columbus, GA, and a circuit race in Marietta, finishing on the long downhill in front of the
> Whitewater Adventure water park. The race is held in conjunction with the 10K Classic foot race,
> one of the bigger running events in the country.
>
> Get this: the P,1 men do 100K on the Monday cicuit race, racing for $10,000 over 35 places, plus
> serious Omnium cash.
>
> The women get $10,000 over 35 places, and their distance is 10K. 1 lap. I **** thee not. Last
> year, 23 women showed up, according to a cat 2 female friend of mine. Beyond comprehension. This
> bizarre cash distribution will not keep me from racing, but it is remarkable (to say the least).
> If I can put drop bars on my wife's Schwinn hybrid and cajole her into taking a 6 mile road ride,
> one of us might make some $ this weekend.
>
> www.gobike1.com
>

Parity to me would be a formula like this...

both men and women start with the same amout of prize money. you would then take the times of the
top 50% of the field average then divide this by the fastest time to to get what percentage of the
fastest time to top the average of the top 50% of competitors finished in. then multiply that by the
prize purse and you have the actual prize purse...Essentially determining the prize money by the
level of competition.

There are lots of ways you can do this and my formula may have faults, but essentially you want the
prize money to reflect the level of competition, not necessarily absolute competition, but relative
competition. That is what people want to see. Obviously the absolute value of prize money would
determine the absolute value of competition, but the reletive calculation would create parity. There
would be no cherry picking, and obviously less cometitive womens races would have smaller prize
purses then the more competitive mens purse.

> Greg considering a weekend of transvestite activity

So, I'm going to open a can of worms I'm sure, but I'm not entirely sure why anyone has problems
with the prize money and/or the event in general?

The prize money for Monday's US10k was given by 2 different sponsors each putting up $10k for their
respective event. If the men didn't have a race, the women would only get $10k. If the women didn't
have a race, the men would still "only" receive $10k.

Plus, if you look at the omnium purse, the Pro/1 men are up for an additional $15k/30 deep for
the weekend.

As far as the distance for the men's versus the women's -- The women's race is a new event this year
and, for various reasons, the 10kilometer distance was adopted to add some excitement to the venue
and to be "in line" with the 10k running event as well as logistics that make life much easier at
the finishline.

Also, in terms of last year, I don't think you can compare the event as the women were not racing in
Marietta and the prize money involved was in line with a local/regional level event. This year, it
looks like the higher purse has already caught the attention of a stronger and larger women's field.

seeya, -k

Andy Coggan

"Steven" <crewiscool42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a3eee1a5.0308270641.4acf6c9@posting.google.com...

> essentially you want the prize money to reflect the level of competition, not necessarily absolute
> competition, but relative competition. That is what people want to see. Obviously the absolute
> value of prize money would determine the absolute value of competition, but the reletive
> calculation would create parity. There would be no cherry picking, and obviously less cometitive
> womens races would have smaller prize purses then the more competitive mens purse.

And why should the prize money reflect the level of competition? I say that it should reflect the
priorities of the person/group/entity that is putting up the dough. Any other approach implies that
the competitors have some right to the money - which, until the race is organized/sanctioned, they
clearly don't.

Andy Coggan

Steve Litvin

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:84314734.0308270545.6e1182eb@posting.google.com...
> "rick" <cycledogg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > If not as long, at least less payout.
>
> I don't understand the logic of this. The women get less racing and you also want to have them get
> less money? That's a double whammy.
>
> Longer racing is good -- if they're going to get less of that "service" then don't work against
> then on prizes too.
>
> JT

Not that I disagree with John specifically but maybe the question shouldn't be about Parity and "if
women deserve 10k to race 10k" but rather is 10k in prizes for a dinky crit the best way to spend
10k in terms of the development of womens cycling in the US?

Steve

lazysegall

Originally posted by Steve Litvin
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:84314734.0308270545.6e1182eb@posting.google.com...
> "rick" <cycledogg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > If not as long, at least less payout.
>
> I don't understand the logic of this. The women get less racing and you also want to have them get
> less money? That's a double whammy.
>
> Longer racing is good -- if they're going to get less of that "service" then don't work against
> then on prizes too.
>
> JT

Not that I disagree with John specifically but maybe the question shouldn't be about Parity and "if
women deserve 10k to race 10k" but rather is 10k in prizes for a dinky crit the best way to spend
10k in terms of the development of womens cycling in the US?

Steve

In general i am not for parity in prize money. For instance, in the tennis US Open the Men play 5 sets while the women only play 3 and then Mens matches last much longer. Most years people come to see the men anyway (although kournukova is about the only reason i would show up in flushing). In other tennis grand slam events the men get more even though the women threaten to protest. At the US open the women get paid the same for some unknown reason. In this case, it is stupid. The men should not bring in the revenue and work harder to subsidize the women. In the bike race of note, however, no one is producing any revenue for anyone. T mobile is basically being nice. This 20k investment from t mobile will not produce more than 1 K in returns. Obviously, there should not be a give away to anyone who enters, but I don;t see where anyone can complain given this example.

Andrew Martin

Raptor <me@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3F4CE4D0.4060409@attbi.com>...
> rick wrote:
> > "Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:<ub03b.5481$3E.543@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> >
> >>I agree: only 1 lap/10k for the women is "freaking ridiculous". There race should be just as
> >>long as the men's.
> >>
> >>Andy Coggan
> >>
> >
> >
> > If not as long, at least less payout.
> >
> > Rick in Tennessee
>
> But the men get to race longer. It's only fair to compensate the women more to make up for their
> shorter period of recreation.
>
> --

From the promoter's viewpoint - shorter race means more money in pocket. If there is a corp sponsor
willing to pay for the prize list, then the shorter the race, the less money that needs to be spent
on things like Police, road closures, signage, etc. I'm I'm a promoter trying to make a living - I'd
love to have racers line up and draw straws for the prize money: no out of pocket expenses.

Obviously though, the men won't stand for a short race and they would probably raise a stink so they
can get what they want. The women less likely to complain since the money's larger than usual so who
cares. This "short women's race" is the best for the promoter since that means more money from entry
fees to him for less out of pocket costs.

It's about dollars.

Ronaldo Jeremia

Tom Arsenault

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<2F33b.6268$Jh2.2470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> "Steven" <crewiscool42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a3eee1a5.0308270641.4acf6c9@posting.google.com...
>
> > essentially you want the prize money to reflect the level of competition, not necessarily
> > absolute competition, but relative competition. That is what people want to see. Obviously the
> > absolute value of prize money would determine the absolute value of competition, but the
> > reletive calculation would create parity. There would be no cherry picking, and obviously less
> > cometitive womens races would have smaller prize purses then the more competitive mens purse.
>
> And why should the prize money reflect the level of competition? I say that it should reflect the
> priorities of the person/group/entity that is putting up the dough. Any other approach implies
> that the competitors have some right to the money - which, until the race is organized/sanctioned,
> they clearly don't.
>
> Andy Coggan

Just from my own observations of racing in the Southeast this year...

Women don't show up to races. If they did, they would probably have a larger prize list. There was a
race this year, where there was nothing else competing with it in the entire Southeast, and 5 women
showed up for it. That's 5 total guys, Open class. Until they can produce the numbers for their
races, they are going to get paid less. Just for reference, the same race 5 women showed up for, we
had 130 starters in the Pro 1/2 race. We'll have parity I think, when more women start to show up.

Amit

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<2F33b.6268$Jh2.2470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> "Steven" <crewiscool42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a3eee1a5.0308270641.4acf6c9@posting.google.com...
>
> > essentially you want the prize money to reflect the level of competition, not necessarily
> > absolute competition, but relative competition. That is what people want to see. Obviously the
> > absolute value of prize money would determine the absolute value of competition, but the
> > reletive calculation would create parity. There would be no cherry picking, and obviously less
> > cometitive womens races would have smaller prize purses then the more competitive mens purse.
>
> And why should the prize money reflect the level of competition? I say that it should reflect the
> priorities of the person/group/entity that is putting up the dough. Any other approach implies
> that the competitors have some right to the money - which, until the race is organized/sanctioned,
> they clearly don't.
>
> Andy Coggan

I'm all for the letting the free market decide the fees and prizes for bike races. If that means
parity is achieved or if it means Masters races have more cash prizes than pros, well then that's
just simply the way it is.

In Toronto though it was required that equal cash prizes were required for men's and women's races.
This played a part in killing racing in the city for some time.

-Amit

Sabine

giantcu92@hotmail.com (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message
news:<b44a1227.0308271727.3b9db790@posting.google.com>...
> "> Just from my own observations of racing in the Southeast this year...
>
> Women don't show up to races. If they did, they would probably have a larger prize list. There was
> a race this year, where there was nothing else competing with it in the entire Southeast, and 5
> women showed up for it. That's 5 total guys, Open class. Until they can produce the numbers for
> their races, they are going to get paid less. Just for reference, the same race 5 women showed up
> for, we had 130 starters in the Pro 1/2 race. We'll have parity I think, when more women start to
> show up.

We've reached full field limits in several races this year in Northern
CA. As for parity, well the winners of those races got the same Tshirt as the winner's of the
men's races.

Sabine

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