To peak or not to peak

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Hey guys,
I'm wondering if some of you upper category guys (Pros, CAT1,2,3) peak or not? I have a lot of goal races (7-8), so peaking and rebuilding may not be possible. Do some of you try to plateau for a month or two, then take a week or two break and rebuild to that plateau for another month or two? Can I somehow control peaking through cyclingpeaks? I felt like last year that I peaked in July, and then slowly declined until September. Towards the end I didn’t really train, but still had IT, which was a cool feeling.
A little about me, I’m 30 and a new Cat3 with a powermeter. Last year was by far my best racing year. I want to be competitive from late April through September. I’m more of a 15 sec. and 1 minute guy too. I have all sorts of training time May through September.
So please post up your style and thanks for your insight

Hey guys,
I'm wondering if some of you upper category guys (Pros, CAT1,2,3) peak or not? I have a lot of goal races (7-8), so peaking and rebuilding may not be possible. Do some of you try to plateau for a month or two, then take a week or two break and rebuild to that plateau for another month or two? Can I somehow control peaking through cyclingpeaks? I felt like last year that I peaked in July, and then slowly declined until September. Towards the end I didn’t really train, but still had IT, which was a cool feeling.
A little about me, I’m 30 and a new Cat3 with a powermeter. Last year was by far my best racing year. I want to be competitive from late April through September. I’m more of a 15 sec. and 1 minute guy too. I have all sorts of training time May through September.
So please post up your style and thanks for your insightYou'll peak to some extent whether you want to or not. You can still be relatively strong all season with a good base, but as you get into race and recover mode you'll start spending away your hard earned CTL and sooner or later you'll start running out of base.

The performance manger in WKO+ can help you visualize and manage both your base build and how fast you spend it during race season. You can't be at top form from April through late September. If you build a lot of base this winter you can be in pretty good shape even off your peaks, but you won't hold a true peak for five months.

Hard as it sounds, you really should choose a few really important events to peak for, ideally in two to three week blocks with six to eight weeks or more between your target peaks. That doesn't mean you won't be pretty strong and won't be in contention to place well or even win races between your peaks, just that you won't be tapering as heavily and won't be racing as fresh during those times.

A good approach is to build your CTL as high as you can this winter so you hit the early races with a very deep base. Spend away some of that CTL during early season racing and peaking for your first key period. Move from high end work back into SST during heavy racing to stave off a CTL crash and because you should be getting plenty of high end work from the races themselves. Enter a second build period after your first peak and rebuild CTL prior to your second peak. Race and taper again and hold onto your second peak as long as you can.

Assuming your FTP and power at durations relative to your key events is high enough, your performance is going to depend a lot on your accumulated base. I think of that CTL as money in the bank, you've want to get a lot in there before serious racing and then you'll spend quite a bit during periods of heavy racing and even more if you intentionally taper for freshness.

Good luck,
-Dave

Thanks Dave, I've always enjoyed your posts.

Ok. So during a said “Peak”, one is typically on great/good form for a couple of weeks, then return to build workouts (with some base?) to work up to the next peak. I should be able to deal with that. So it looks like I’ll try two, maybe three peaks then.

What do you typically do for base work in the winter? Is there a CTL you shoot for? Do you mix in some 1 and 5 minute work, because I hate long tedious intervals (thus the low relative FTP).

Now trying to figure out how to peak will be next. I really don’t know what to do. Last year I would do sprints and race simulations with teammates that progressively got harder and harder through the season, then I was flying like never before. Most of these training rides were harder and longer than my actual races. The problem was my Powertap was being rebuilt during this time, so I had no idea what I was doing.
Is there a way in Cyclingpeaks to tell when you should be peaking? A magic TSS number?

Thanks again for the insight Dave!

Thanks Dave, I've always enjoyed your posts...Thanks.
...Ok. So during a said “Peak”, one is typically on great/good form for a couple of weeks, then return to build workouts (with some base?) to work up to the next peak. I should be able to deal with that. So it looks like I’ll try two, maybe three peaks then...That's a much better plan, BTW you might do very well between your peaks if your CTL is high enough going into the season, but you should do even better when you do peak. FWIW I managed a couple of top 10 SR finishes and a 3rd place TT finish in open category Masters races last season when I was definitely off peak and training right through the events. I almost scrapped the TT when I woke up feeling awful, but it beat going out to do L4 work so I raced it anyway.

...What do you typically do for base work in the winter? Is there a CTL you shoot for?...What I do and what you do may not be the same thing. That's the art of coaching, figuring out what works best given your goals, available training and recovery time, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

But I follow the general idea of SST base building to build a strong aerobic core during the winter months followed by some higher end VO2 Max work towards spring. I've got two main goals during early to mid winter training: raise my FTP and build CTL on a steady slow ramp. SST and some L4 work does that nicely. Pure L4 might raise my FTP more quickly but at the expense of building CTL. Lower end SST or LSD work might build more CTL but won't raise FTP as quickly. Finding the balance that works best for you is part science and part art. A good coach tuned into power based training could be very useful in terms of finding that balance.
..Do you mix in some 1 and 5 minute work...I don't plan any short anaerobic work into early base building. I like some 3 to 5 minute VO2 max work in late winter but I don't personally do any earlier in the base build. Some folks do, and some do short periods of VO2 Max work mid winter then resume base building. There are a lot of approaches, but the idea is to build a strong aerobic engine and 1 minute anaerobic efforts isn't the approach I'd choose.
... because I hate long tedious intervals (thus the low relative FTP)...I'd definitely challenge that problem in your training. It's those long intervals in the 20 to 30 minute range that will bring up your FTP and everything else builds on that. If you've got a handful of important races then you definitely want to bring up your core sustainable power. A big jump and killer sprint won't do much for you unless you hit the end of the race with the leaders and it's sustainable power that will let you do that. FTP is also a very good predictor of how many hard efforts you'll be able to make back to back with quick recovery and leads to endurance as you'll burn more fat when working at a lower percentage of your FTP than your opponents. FTP along with CTL is also a good predictor of how well you'll recover from a race so that you can train or race again.

FWIW, I despised trainers and unless I was on a long climb pretty much hated long intervals until I got a PM. The pacing info and objective feedback I get from the PM make those long efforts and indoor rides tolerable and a lot of times actually has me looking forward to those rides. It's like having a private race against yourself, can you hit that PB power you put out for 20 minutes last week? Can you improve upon it? Can you hold that mid SST power for 45 minutes, how about an hour? You don't need to do all of these right up against your limits but you can challenge yourself for more power or longer efforts at sub maximal power every week indoors or out. I find that extremely motivating and I look forward to my training rides to see what I can do. It's a lot more fun than just riding the old training circuit and wondering if you're going fast because of that unusual tail wind or whether you've actually gained fitness.

Anyway I hope you get similarly motivated by the PM data because doing those long steady intervals you don't like are the key to improvement IMHO and will be far more important to your success next season than a peaking strategy.

...Is there a way in Cyclingpeaks to tell when you should be peaking? A magic TSS number?...The Performance Manager in CyclingPeaks WKO+ can tell you a lot about peaking and you can use its methods in a spreadsheet to look ahead and to plan your peaks. This link might help you understand how to get that info out of the Performance Manager: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanager.asp


There's no magic TSS number, and your personal CTL target depends a lot on your training history and your available time to train and to recover. But from your description of a five month season racing Cat IIIs I'd want to enter the season with a CTL of at least 100 TSS/day and 120 TSS/day wouldn't hurt. That might not be practical for you, but if you're racing a lot then it's likely your CTL will peak next spring and will drop steadily from there unless you back off and rebuild one or more times during the season. So you want to get it pretty high during your winter base work. At the same time you shouldn't try to bring it up too rapidly, a lot of folks have reported over training symptoms and illness striking when their CTL build rate exceeds 8 to 10 TSS/day/week. I shoot for a CTL ramp rate of 3 to 5 TSS/day/week most of the winter and haven't had trouble with that build rate yet.

Good luck,
Dave

Thanks.
That's a much better plan, ...<snip> I shoot for a CTL ramp rate of 3 to 5 TSS/day/week most of the winter and haven't had trouble with that build rate yet.

Good luck,
DaveWhat an excellent reply. Thanks for that!

Is your definition of SST as narrow as the 88-94% mark in Training and Racing With Power, or is broader to encompass most of the tempo zone as well?

Is your definition of SST as narrow as the 88-94% mark in Training and Racing With Power, or is broader to encompass most of the tempo zone as well?Over time I've moved to a broader definition which extends down into Tempo work so roughly 80-95% of FTP. I target 85% or above for core SST work and above 90% for pure L4 work but on days where that just isn't going to happen mentally or physically I'll shoot for an hour or more or low-SST. That low end range is also useful in terms of building CTL later in the training week where I probably don't have it for higher end work but don't want to take a complete rest day.

-Dave

Thanks Dave.. that was a great post. I'm new to power training, very helpful stuff.

mike

What an excellent reply. Thanks for that!I'll second that ... another one for the "binder" :)

In many ways the current tools help K.I.S.S.

Just planning and keeping an eye to CTL and FTP can get one a long ways up the training ladder. Two numbers are purty darn easy.:D

...Really good stuff here Dave!

Dave, from your many excellent posts I am already following the above, but I don't know when to start kicking it over to the different intensities.

So after pursuing this strategy, how many weeks before an A priority race would you then shift focus to L5 & L6?

Thanks,
DaveG

...So after pursuing this strategy, how many weeks before an A priority race would you then shift focus to L5 & L6?...That depends on the race and where that A race falls during the season. Does it follow a bunch of fast B and C races that will provide a fair amount of L5 and L6? Is it a long time trial that won't really demand a lot of L6 work? Is it early in the overall race season so I can't count on a lot of high end work in competition first?

I generally start adding L5 work in late winter/early spring so 6 to 8 weeks before racing although not necessarily A races. How much I do and whether it's a pure L5 focus or some L5 work leading off the week followed by L4 and lower work depends on how my power profile looks and what races are coming up. I haven't planned a race schedule for next year yet, but I'll start thinking about specific races sometime in the new year and that will influence when I start L5 work.

I believe L6 fitness comes pretty fast so I'll introduce that 3-4 weeks before early races but again it depends on the nature of the races and how I'm doing relative to my FTP and CTL goals. If I haven't achieved my preseason CTL targets or my FTP needs tuning I might push off the L6 work since it generally forces me to lose some CTL. I'd definitely push it off if I'm targeting longer time trials but at least around here they tend to come later in the season.

Sorry, but this really is one of those "it depends" kind of questions. This is what makes a good coach worth their weight in gold. Everyone is different in terms of their goals and their needs. There's no canned answer as to when you should introduce higher end work or how much to do. Some folks do L6 all winter. I don't, but I can't argue with the success of those folks that use that method. As I mentioned above, some folks like a reverse periodization approach with L5 work early on, or they insert some L5 focused blocks mid-base and then resume base building with longer efforts. Every one of these systems has strong advocates and examples of the great results they yield. So it really does depend on your philosophy, your strengths and weaknesses and your target events.

I push aerobic core work really hard as anyone can guess from my posts. That's based in part on Lydiard's work and on my personal observation that too many cyclists try to skip ahead to intense interval work before they really build a strong aerobic base. That approach hindered my cycling for years and a core aerobic fitness focus has really turned things around for me. That's why I'm such a strong advocate for SST and L4 work since I really do think it's where most folks fall short even if they can suffer for a minute or two at a time and win the local city limit sprint. But everyone is different and it's the kind of questions you ask that really point to those differences. Power profiling can help answer your questions as can a careful look at your race schedule but you will almost certainly spend away CTL as you transition to a high end L5, L6 and L7 focus so you have to decide which is more important to your success and how soon to start that transition.

Philosophical Rant to Follow...
I used to think folks just had different talents they were born with and that dictated everything about their racing styles. I look at it a bit differently now. From full time pro's to weekend warriors we're all recovery limited. We can only train so much and so hard and still manage to recover and get stronger. We have to pick and choose what we're going to focus on. There's simply not enough training and recovery time and our bodies just won't bounce back fast enough to pile on effort and extend duration as much as we'd like. So we make choices in terms of what to work on and how much time and effort to spend on each system. IOW, we all make training tradeoffs since we can't tune every system up to its potential given our limited training and recovery time. So what do you focus on and how do you want to define yourself as a racer? I find this encouraging, no one out there can work on everything all the time and be best at every discipline. But the folks who can sustain high power over long durations tend to do pretty darn well across the board. That's part of the reason I put so much focus on building core aerobic fitness, it pays off nicely. Creating your own definition of success and a training plan that will help you achieve it is the key.

Not knockin' your question Dave, just got that old stream of consciousness goin'

Good luck,
-Dave

Could daveryanwyoming be the new Rapdaddyo of the forum :confused:

Thanks Dave for taking time to share your thoughts on the subject. :)

Could daveryanwyoming be the new Rapdaddyo of the forum ... Nope, just a hack bike racer that repeats what others have said. I sure didn't invent any of this stuff, I've just tried to understand it and put it to the test in my own training and have been happy with the results.

But thanks for the vote of confidence anyway,
-Dave

Nope, just a hack bike racer that repeats what others have said. I sure didn't invent any of this stuff, I've just tried to understand it and put it to the test in my own training and have been happy with the results.

But thanks for the vote of confidence anyway,
-DaveI suspect over time, Dave's posts will become more pithy but none the less insightful.

We have all learned a lot from these forums.

DRW (Lol, your acronym looks alot like Dr.W)

Thanks! That was the info & context I was hoping for!
(No need to be sheepish on my account - some people pay good money to have the best info digested and served up in simple terms :p. Others are too poor...:o)

Thanks,
DaveG

...but you will almost certainly spend away CTL as you transition to a high end L5, L6 and L7 focus...Dr W,

Re-reading your post, I'm curious how you mean "spending away CTL".

Are you saying focus above L4:
1) Degrades some of the Lactate system gains?
2) Simply doesn't Build CTL? (no doubt because of work/recovery capacity)

Dave

.... Are you saying focus above L4:.. 1) Degrades some of the Lactate system gains?...Nope
...2) Simply doesn't Build CTL? (no doubt because of work/recovery capacity)...Yep, it's pretty rare to maintain CTL at an exact level so you tend to build or lose.

Harder workouts imply less total training time at level, IOW less TSS. That's another way to look at the whole SST concept, you build more TSS by holding reasonably high intensity for reasonably long durations. When you transition to higher intensity work or serious racing you either have to cut workout length, increase recovery, or both. That tends to drop your average daily TSS which means your CTL will start to sag. Do it long enough and you'll start spending away your base. It's really hard to train a lot of L5 and L6 or to race a lot (if you're trying to be fresh for each race) and build (or maintain) CTL at the same time.

-Dave

Dr.W :D wrote ..... Harder workouts imply less total training time at level, IOW less TSS. That's another way to look at the whole SST concept, you build more TSS by holding reasonably high intensity for reasonably long durations.Seldom can I add anything to his posts but expanding on that point ...

We ALL have a maximal Power-Duration curve. One that's partly genetic, partly trainable and is also dependent on one's *current* training state
For the majority of people once we get onto out beyond a few minutes in duration the 'droop' in the Power-duration curve falls within 5-10% loss in sustainable power per doubling of duration.
Dr. A.Coggan has more or less proven that across a wide variety of workouts and races that NP is a effective measure. Therefore IF is an effective personalized measure.
If we consider a baseline workout of duration T1 and intensity IF1, the related TSS(1) = T1*IF1^2
And compare that to a maximal workout of double that duration 2*T1, the intensity will range from 0.90 to 0.95IF1.
TSS2 will range from (2*T1)*(0.90-0.95)^2*IF1^2 or approximately 1.6 to 1.8 times TSS1
If we consider a workout four times longer, TSS4 would be approximately 2.6 to 3.2 times higher.
That's why is possible to rack up larger daily TSS and ultimately CTL when performing longer workouts. IF our P-D curves dropped much more rapidly or if TSS employed a much higher exponent of IF, that would not be the case.

Now of course one still has to recover from those workouts. Yadda, yadda, yadda ....

....That's why is possible to rack up larger daily TSS and ultimately CTL when performing longer workouts. IF our P-D curves dropped much more rapidly or if TSS employed a much higher exponent of IF, that would not be the case...Awesome analysis Rick! I was thinking about estimating TSS for a couple of representative workouts to demonstrate the concept, but you nailed it! It gets a bit trickier when you introduce typical recovery intervals but it makes an awfully good argument for say 30 minute long intervals vs. the 10 to 20 minute variety at a slightly higher power.

-Dave