Minimum FTP sufficient for pro tour?

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Out of curiosity, at 72kg what FTP would I need to be comparable to a lower tier pro on a protour team? Obviously a lot more than an FTP figure is required to race at that level, but I can't help but wonder...

According to the power profile chart, around 5.96 w/kg for the lower end of Euro pro. So around 430w. Obviously an estimate, but probably not too far off.

what power profile chart?

According to the power profile chart, around 5.96 w/kg for the lower end of Euro pro. So around 430w. Obviously an estimate, but probably not too far off.
Assuming you're using the "World Class (e.g. international Pro)" set, the bottom appears to be at 5.69 w/kg.

what power profile chart?
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/profile.asp

According to the power profile chart, around 5.96 w/kg for the lower end of Euro pro. So around 430w. Obviously an estimate, but probably not too far off.
Is that how the charts are done? IOW, the lowest value for International class is the lowest value that you'd expect on the protour? Sorry, I'm just not 100% sure where the numbers in the table are coming from.

... I'm just not 100% sure where the numbers in the table are coming from.This explains it quite well: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/profile.asp

But seeing as you've already seen that link....

The top of the tables are pinned to known world class performances in various different disciplines. The bottom of the tables is likewise pinned to resarch data on untrained subjects. The numbers in between are interpolated and are supported in part by real world experience.

That means a couple of things:

- The best short efforts represent world class sprinters and track cyclists. The best long efforts represent road racers, time trialists, grand tour GC riders etc. At the high end you won't find any single rider who can hit the top numbers for both 5 second and one hour power. An amateur might have a pretty flat profile across time durations but those charts represent best efforts by folks who specialize so don't expect to hit top numbers across the board.

- Discussions on these forums and elsewhere remind us that power and w/kg aren't the whole story. Racers in lower categories in particular seem to have trouble with the tables as many can hit or exceed the listed numbers but still struggle in their races. Racing involves a lot more than pure power but it's a heck of a good starting point if you also race well.

- FTP expressed in watts/kg is most applicable to sustained climbing situations. Ideally time trialists or racing on the flats would be characterized by watts/CdA ( watts per aerodynamic drag) but that's tougher to measure and CdA tends to follow weight (big riders punch a bigger hole in the air and also weigh more). So watts/Kg is still a good reference point.

Anyway, the charts haven't been validated at each level and Andy has spent a lot of energy reminding folks that the category labels are just general reference and not to be taken too literally. The tables are best used to identify a particular rider's strengths and weaknesses which can be used to guide training and perhaps race tactics but it's hard not to gravitate to the category references.

-Dave

This explains it quite well: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/profile.asp

But seeing as you've already seen that link....

The top of the tables are pinned to known world class performances in various different disciplines. The bottom of the tables is likewise pinned to resarch data on untrained subjects. The numbers in between are interpolated and are supported in part by real world experience.

That means a couple of things:

- The best short efforts represent world class sprinters and track cyclists. The best long efforts represent road racers, time trialists, grand tour GC riders etc. At the high end you won't find any single rider who can hit the top numbers for both 5 second and one hour power. An amateur might have a pretty flat profile across time durations but those charts represent best efforts by folks who specialize so don't expect to hit top numbers across the board.

- Discussions on these forums and elsewhere remind us that power and w/kg aren't the whole story. Racers in lower categories in particular seem to have trouble with the tables as many can hit or exceed the listed numbers but still struggle in their races. Racing involves a lot more than pure power but it's a heck of a good starting point if you also race well.

- FTP expressed in watts/kg is most applicable to sustained climbing situations. Ideally time trialists or racing on the flats would be characterized by watts/CdA ( watts per aerodynamic drag) but that's tougher to measure and CdA tends to follow weight (big riders punch a bigger hole in the air and also weigh more). So watts/Kg is still a good reference point.

Anyway, the charts haven't been validated at each level and Andy has spent a lot of energy reminding folks that the category labels are just general reference and not to be taken too literally. The tables are best used to identify a particular rider's strengths and weaknesses which can be used to guide training and perhaps race tactics but it's hard not to gravitate to the category references.

-DaveThanks for the explanation - that's very clear. Does anyone have any reliable one hour power output data for lower-tier protour riders? I'd be interested to see it if it's out there. Coggan's tables are interesting, and while the reference points for the top of the table are transparent, the rest of the table isn't.

Thanks for the explanation - that's very clear. Does anyone have any reliable one hour power output data for lower-tier protour riders? I'd be interested to see it if it's out there. Coggan's tables are interesting, and while the reference points for the top of the table are transparent, the rest of the table isn't.
I recall seeing Michael Barry's FTP being listed in a Velonews article as 5.7 watts/kilo (can't be positive of the accuracy of that). He's probably not a lower-tier rider but not a higher tier one either.

The chart on this page is sort of interesting: http://biketechreview.com/performance/la_cant_doit.htm

Just remember that
1)This was in the middle of a Grand Tour
2) Riders not fighting for a GC spot typically sandbag GT time trials
3) It's an estimate.

... Does anyone have any reliable one hour power output data for lower-tier protour riders? ....Check out this link for some Predictor Lotto riders power files: http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/

They're training rides, but you can back out FTP from NP and IF values. For instance Win de Vocht's FTP at the time of the posted training ride was 379 watts based on an NP of 270 watts and an IF of 0.712.

I've seen race power files posted before, there were some from this year's TDF and some from Tour of California. You should be able to google some links.

-Dave

thanks for that

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/images/powerprofile_v4.gif

I recall seeing Michael Barry's FTP being listed in a Velonews article as 5.7 watts/kilo (can't be positive of the accuracy of that). He's probably not a lower-tier rider but not a higher tier one either.

The chart on this page is sort of interesting: http://biketechreview.com/performance/la_cant_doit.htm

Just remember that
1)This was in the middle of a Grand Tour
2) Riders not fighting for a GC spot typically sandbag GT time trials
3) It's an estimate.
Awesome, great stuff!

Check out this link for some Predictor Lotto riders power files: http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/

They're training rides, but you can back out FTP from NP and IF values. For instance Win de Vocht's FTP at the time of the posted training ride was 379 watts based on an NP of 270 watts and an IF of 0.712.

I've seen race power files posted before, there were some from this year's TDF and some from Tour of California. You should be able to google some links.

-Dave
Perfect, that's a big help. It appears some of these guys are significantly lower than Coggan's table suggests. With a weight listed at 78kg, Wim de Vocht appears to be around 4.85W/kg. Almost seems attainable!

These team microsites all have several WKO files in them if you dig a little bit:

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/sites/

I remember my first look at some of the files and seeing the absolute power numbers of a few and thinking, oh, those aren't that high! But then you see they weigh <60kg.

I have a file from Darren Lill (top SA rider in USA at present) from this years TT in the Tour de Missouri - 5.75w/kg for 45 odd minutes (good enough to take 18 secs out of Contador)

A lot of people forget that it's not just pure fitness ability to be a pro tour bike rider. There are great amateur guys who have a higher FTP than the many pros and could blow them away in a TT, but they would never get a spot on a pro tour team. A pro tour team has a balance of GC men, sprinters, classics, etc. How did they get there? Probably not due to their FTP.

How many races have they one? If so, which ones? Results get the attention of team directors. FTP is a great training tool, but doesn't count for jack unless you have the placings to back it up.

A lot of people forget that it's not just pure fitness ability to be a pro tour bike rider. There are great amateur guys who have a higher FTP than the many pros and could blow them away in a TT, but they would never get a spot on a pro tour team. A pro tour team has a balance of GC men, sprinters, classics, etc. How did they get there? Probably not due to their FTP.

How many races have they one? If so, which ones? Results get the attention of team directors. FTP is a great training tool, but doesn't count for jack unless you have the placings to back it up.
Agree with that, and that's why my first post included "Obviously a lot more than an FTP figure is required to race at that level". ;)

A lot of people forget that it's not just pure fitness ability to be a pro tour bike rider. There are great amateur guys who have a higher FTP than the many pros and could blow them away in a TT, but they would never get a spot on a pro tour team. A pro tour team has a balance of GC men, sprinters, classics, etc. How did they get there? Probably not due to their FTP.

How many races have they one? If so, which ones? Results get the attention of team directors. FTP is a great training tool, but doesn't count for jack unless you have the placings to back it up.exactly... have a look at the TTing abilities of a Bettini for example and he's 2 time world champ, olympic champ, many classic wins, former italian champ, muliple giro stages... etc, etc, etc.. this guy's an animal, but couldn't TT his way out of a wet paper bag... FTP is only part of the story as long as you are in the ball park you are going to be fine... i'd guess you need a min FTP of around ~5w/kg... depending on the race riders can beat other riders with superior FTP into the ground with their superior AnCap.. to be in the pro ranks you need to be able to win races and that means an FTP of a certain min but better FTP in no insurance what so ever of better performance in a mass start event once you can achieve that min FTP for the cat you are competing in.