marathon starting pace policies

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At Mardi Gras Marathon last Sunday, I had the usual struggle with weaving around walkers or very
slow runners who are unaware or uncaring about the problem with starting too close to the front. I'm
not posting here to get into their ethics, etc., but rather to ask, what's the SMALLEST marathon
anyone has run that took overt steps to control pacing at the start? Corrals? Announcements for
various pacers to move up, or back, etc.? For example, the corral-release system at Marine Corps
Marathon is in my opinion a marvel, the way it has allowed me to run free literally from the
starting line each time. Although many such systems rely on the honor system, and people may lie
just to start closer to the action at the front, they still seem to help in many cases. But it's a
major operation and I'm sure adds mightily to the work of the race organizers.

How about smaller marathons? New Orleans had about 4,000 combined in the half and full marathons
starting together Sunday. I'd say another 400-500 runners and the congestion could have been bad
enough at the first turn to make it dangerous without some supervision of pacing at start.
Anyone? I have only run four marathons--two each at MGM and MCM--so my knowledge here is limited.
Just curious.

Chris

"Chris Smith" <cswriter@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:3E53B3DB.EB0CABA5@adelphia.net...

>
> How about smaller marathons? New Orleans had about 4,000 combined in the half and full marathons
> starting together Sunday. I'd say another 400-500 runners and the congestion could have been bad
> enough at the first turn to make it dangerous without some supervision of pacing at start. Anyone?
> I have only run four marathons--two each at MGM and MCM--so my knowledge here is limited. Just
> curious.
>
New York has an extensive corral system (there are also three different courses for the first eight
miles of the race). This would seem to be a good thing, but it seemed largely unpoliced. Further,
unless you were trying to get up to the elite section, I think they just take your word for your
projected time.

The HCA marathon in Odense, Denmark, has a field of just under 3000. In 2001 they had signs up
indicating anticipated pace. Last year the signs all blew down in the night, but most people seemed
to know roughtly where they should stand. But there were no walkers. Jonathan "Chris Smith"
<cswriter@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:3E53B3DB.EB0CABA5@adelphia.net...
> At Mardi Gras Marathon last Sunday, I had the usual struggle with weaving around walkers or very
> slow runners who are unaware or uncaring about the problem with starting too close to the front.
> I'm not posting here to get into their ethics, etc., but rather to ask, what's the SMALLEST
> marathon anyone has run that took overt steps to control pacing at the start? Corrals?
> Announcements for various pacers to move up, or back, etc.? For example, the corral-release system
> at Marine Corps Marathon is in my opinion a marvel, the way it has allowed me to run free
> literally from the starting line each time. Although many such systems rely on the honor system,
> and people may lie just to start closer to the action at the front, they still seem to help in
> many cases. But it's a major operation and I'm sure adds mightily to the work of the race
> organizers.
>
> How about smaller marathons? New Orleans had about 4,000 combined in the half and full marathons
> starting together Sunday. I'd say another 400-500 runners and the congestion could have been bad
> enough at the first turn to make it dangerous without some supervision of pacing at start. Anyone?
> I have only run four marathons--two each at MGM and MCM--so my knowledge here is limited. Just
> curious.
>
> Chris

Honor systems are notoriously bad at getting people to start where they belong; at the CRIM (a very
large 10-miler in Flint, MI), two years ago I was starting on the 3rd-4th row (I ran 55-56 then),
and had a 40+-year-old woman with headphones try to push her way in front of me. Corrals are better
but still not perfect. I started in the 1st corral at Boston a couple years ago and spent most of
miles 2-3 weaving among the spectators along the side of the course to pass the hundreds of people
who had sprinted out the first mile. Andy Hass

Unfortunately, the only solution I can think of is for those of us here to continue to be *painfully
honest* when signing up for longer large races that require corrals--and to also pass the word on to
our friends, and especially those who are inexperienced or are running in a large race the first
time. The other tactic is to *run defensively*, and make sure you don't get run over by anyone (or
do the same to someone else!), or hold up progress during the race!

Just my 2 cents--

Jean in VA

"Jonathan Sydenham" <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote in message
news:3e54f18d$0$13174$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> The HCA marathon in Odense, Denmark, has a field of just under 3000. In
2001
> they had signs up indicating anticipated pace. Last year the signs all
blew
> down in the night, but most people seemed to know roughtly where they
should
> stand. But there were no walkers. Jonathan "Chris Smith" <cswriter@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:3E53B3DB.EB0CABA5@adelphia.net...
> > At Mardi Gras Marathon last Sunday, I had the usual struggle with weaving around walkers or very
> > slow runners who are unaware or uncaring about the problem with starting too close to the front.
> > I'm not posting here to get into their ethics, etc., but rather to ask, what's the SMALLEST
> > marathon anyone has run that took overt steps to control pacing at the start? Corrals?
> > Announcements for various pacers to move up, or back, etc.? For example, the corral-release
> > system at Marine Corps Marathon is in my opinion a marvel, the way it has allowed me to run free
> > literally from the starting line each time. Although many such systems rely on the honor system,
> > and people may lie just to start closer to the action at the front, they still seem to help in
> > many cases. But it's a major operation and I'm sure adds mightily to the work of the race
> > organizers.
> >
> > How about smaller marathons? New Orleans had about 4,000 combined in the half and full marathons
> > starting together Sunday. I'd say another 400-500 runners and the congestion could have been bad
> > enough at the first turn to make it dangerous without some supervision of pacing at start.
> > Anyone? I have only run four marathons--two each at MGM and MCM--so my knowledge here is
> > limited. Just curious.
> >
> > Chris
>

In article <3E54C90A.3050106@hvc.rr.com>, Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:

>We never have this problem with trail races. The fast guyz line up in front and the rest of us
>argue and fight for the back of pack. :)

Who's 'us' fast guy?!

At my little New Year's Day race, with 10 runners, _none_ of them wanted to start at the line.
I've never seen a race where people were pushing towards the back of the pack. And this was so
small a race with such a wide starting area that everybody could have toed the starting line.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Chris,

This would be good at any race. Should we start a new topic line, get everyone's input on it, then
see whether or not we could get this added to race flyers, etc.? I'd not say just something about
walkers, but about the general idea of how people are to line up: 5 min.miles, 6 min. miles, etc.
then follow it with the walkers.

Victoria

"Chris Smith" <cswriter@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:3E54FF3C.E97354A2@adelphia.net...
> Good points, Jean. I really think that organizers do a poor job many times of educating new
> marathoners--a line buried in the race info booklet just isn't enough.
>
> It would be amazingly easy for every large marathon to have an easel poster beside the
> chip-checking station at packet pickup with wording designed mostly for inexperienced entrants,
> something like:
> ______________________________________
> PACE YOURSELF! As you prepare to participate in this great event, keep in mind that there are
> thousands of other participants with whom you'll share the race course.
>
> Before the start on Sunday, please line up in accordance with your planned pace. If you are a
> WALKER or will be running slower than 10 minutes per mile, you'll enjoy the race more and help
> others if you find a place near the end of the pre-start pack.
>
> You'll avoid being run over by faster runners. And no matter where you line up, your time will be
> accurately recorded thanks to the timing chip you're holding right now.
>
> Thanks!
> ____________________________________
>
> -chris
>
> "Jean S. Barto" wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, the only solution I can think of is for those of us here to continue to be
> > *painfully honest* when signing up for longer large races that require corrals--and to also pass
> > the word on to our friends, and especially those who are inexperienced or are running in a large
> > race the first time. The other tactic is to *run defensively*, and make sure you don't get run
> > over by anyone (or do the same to someone else!), or hold up progress during the race!
> >
> > Just my 2 cents--
> >
> > Jean in VA
> >
> > "Jonathan Sydenham" <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > news:3e54f18d$0$13174$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> > > The HCA marathon in Odense, Denmark, has a field of just under 3000. In
> > 2001
> > > they had signs up indicating anticipated pace. Last year the signs all
> > blew
> > > down in the night, but most people seemed to know roughtly where they
> > should
> > > stand. But there were no walkers. Jonathan "Chris Smith" <cswriter@adelphia.net> wrote in
> > > message news:3E53B3DB.EB0CABA5@adelphia.net...
> > > > At Mardi Gras Marathon last Sunday, I had the usual struggle with weaving around walkers or
> > > > very slow runners who are unaware or uncaring about the problem with starting too close to
> > > > the front. I'm not posting here to get into their ethics, etc., but rather to ask, what's
> > > > the SMALLEST marathon anyone has run that took overt steps to control pacing at the start?
> > > > Corrals? Announcements for various pacers to move up, or back, etc.? For example, the
> > > > corral-release system at Marine Corps Marathon is in my opinion a marvel, the way it has
> > > > allowed me to run free literally from the starting line each time. Although many such
> > > > systems rely on the honor system, and people may lie just to start closer to the action at
> > > > the front, they still seem to help in many cases. But it's a major operation and I'm sure
> > > > adds mightily to the work of the race organizers.
> > > >
> > > > How about smaller marathons? New Orleans had about 4,000 combined in the half and full
> > > > marathons starting together Sunday. I'd say another 400-500 runners and the congestion could
> > > > have been bad enough at the first turn to make it dangerous without some supervision of
> > > > pacing at start. Anyone? I have only run four marathons--two each at MGM and MCM--so my
> > > > knowledge here is limited. Just curious.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > >
>

Good points, Jean. I really think that organizers do a poor job many times of educating new
marathoners--a line buried in the race info booklet just isn't enough.

It would be amazingly easy for every large marathon to have an easel poster beside the chip-checking
station at packet pickup with wording designed mostly for inexperienced entrants, something like:
______________________________________
PACE YOURSELF! As you prepare to participate in this great event, keep in mind that there are
thousands of other participants with whom you'll share the race course.

Before the start on Sunday, please line up in accordance with your planned pace. If you are a WALKER
or will be running slower than 10 minutes per mile, you'll enjoy the race more and help others if
you find a place near the end of the pre-start pack.

You'll avoid being run over by faster runners. And no matter where you line up, your time will be
accurately recorded thanks to the timing chip you're holding right now.

Thanks!
____________________________________

-chris

"Jean S. Barto" wrote:

> Unfortunately, the only solution I can think of is for those of us here to continue to be
> *painfully honest* when signing up for longer large races that require corrals--and to also pass
> the word on to our friends, and especially those who are inexperienced or are running in a large
> race the first time. The other tactic is to *run defensively*, and make sure you don't get run
> over by anyone (or do the same to someone else!), or hold up progress during the race!
>
> Just my 2 cents--
>
> Jean in VA
>
> "Jonathan Sydenham" <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote in message
> news:3e54f18d$0$13174$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> > The HCA marathon in Odense, Denmark, has a field of just under 3000. In
> 2001
> > they had signs up indicating anticipated pace. Last year the signs all
> blew
> > down in the night, but most people seemed to know roughtly where they
> should
> > stand. But there were no walkers. Jonathan "Chris Smith" <cswriter@adelphia.net> wrote in
> > message news:3E53B3DB.EB0CABA5@adelphia.net...
> > > At Mardi Gras Marathon last Sunday, I had the usual struggle with weaving around walkers or
> > > very slow runners who are unaware or uncaring about the problem with starting too close to the
> > > front. I'm not posting here to get into their ethics, etc., but rather to ask, what's the
> > > SMALLEST marathon anyone has run that took overt steps to control pacing at the start?
> > > Corrals? Announcements for various pacers to move up, or back, etc.? For example, the
> > > corral-release system at Marine Corps Marathon is in my opinion a marvel, the way it has
> > > allowed me to run free literally from the starting line each time. Although many such systems
> > > rely on the honor system, and people may lie just to start closer to the action at the front,
> > > they still seem to help in many cases. But it's a major operation and I'm sure adds mightily
> > > to the work of the race organizers.
> > >
> > > How about smaller marathons? New Orleans had about 4,000 combined in the half and full
> > > marathons starting together Sunday. I'd say another 400-500 runners and the congestion could
> > > have been bad enough at the first turn to make it dangerous without some supervision of pacing
> > > at start. Anyone? I have only run four marathons--two each at MGM and MCM--so my knowledge
> > > here is limited. Just curious.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> >