Drinking and urinating

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So since an increase in red blood cell mass in these .. dogs .. causes them to drink excessively and
urinate excessively .. hmm .. somewhat like .. Beav .. would / could the fact the number of people
with diabetes who drink excessively and urinate excessively be ALSO related to the fact they have
elevated red blood cell mass?

As evidenced by the increase of blood flow in those diabetics given iron chelators .. which lower
the red blood cell mass .. no iron .. no red blood cells .

This increases the flow of blood .. allowing it to flow further and faster / no stasis ..

<<snip>> We conclude that blood hyperviscosity and increased blood volume led to impaired VP release
and polyuria. <<snip>>

: J Vet Intern Med 1997 Sep-Oct;11(5):300-3 Related Articles, Links

Polyuria and polydipsia and disturbed vasopressin release in 2 dogs with secondary polycythemia.

van Vonderen IK, Meyer HP, Kraus JS, Kooistra HS.

Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht
University, The Netherlands.

In dogs, secondary polycythemia (SP) may be associated with polyuria and polydipsia (PU/PD). The
pathogenesis of this PU/PD has not yet been explained. We hypothesized that hyperviscosity and
increased blood volume in SP might affect vasopressin (VP) release, resulting in PU/PD. This
hypothesis was tested in 2 dogs with SP caused by renal neoplasia and PU/PD. Osmoregulation of VP
release was studied by a modified water deprivation test and by investigating the VP response to
hypertonic saline infusion. Water deprivation test results were consistent with an inability to
produce concentrated urine despite increasing plasma osmolality. During hypertonic saline infusion,
the osmotic threshold of VP release was markedly increased in both dogs, resulting in a delayed VP
response to increasing plasma osmolality. The sensitivity of VP release was low normal in both
dogs. We conclude that blood hyperviscosity and increased blood volume led to impaired VP release
and polyuria.

PMID: 9348498 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This article clearly shows the effects of too many red blood cells {polycythemia] in those with
diabetes. The effects here were CREATED by the doctors during the treatment .. giving them iron to
treat their anemia ..

<<snip>> Complications during the period of polycythemia included gangrenous feet requiring
amputation in 2 patients, CVA in 2 patients, and splenic infarct in 1 patient. One patient died
of cerebral thrombosis. We conclude that polycythemia is uncommon in CAPD patients and occurs
most often in diabetic patients. Volume depletion and iron therapy may play a role in its
etiology <<snip>>

Adv Perit Dial 1991;7:77-80

Polycythemia in diabetic patients on CAPD.

Bender FH, Piraino B Department of Medicine, University of Pittsburgh, PA.

Polycythemia in CAPD patients has been rarely described. Over an eight year period, 4 out of 123
CAPD patients (3%) were identified as having Hct values exceeding 50% for 1 month or longer. All of
the 4 patients were insulin dependent diabetics (4/47 diabetic patients, 8.5%). Charts were reviewed
on 3 of these 4 patients. Polycythemia developed after a mean of 21 +/- 7 months on peritoneal
dialysis. Prior to the development of polycythemia, ferritin levels were low and ferrous sulfate
therapy was begun at a time the Hct values were 36 to 40%. Erythropoietin levels were obtained in 2
patients, and were 22 U/L (Hct 51%) and less than 5 U/L (Hct 55%). Renal ultrasound failed to show
renal masses or cysts. One patient had a plasma volume of 2.1 L (normal 2.4-3.2 L); another patient
was clinically volume depleted. Complications during the period of polycythemia included gangrenous
feet requiring amputation in 2 patients, CVA in 2 patients, and splenic infarct in 1 patient. One
patient died of cerebral thrombosis. We conclude that polycythemia is uncommon in CAPD patients and
occurs most often in diabetic patients. Volume depletion and iron therapy may play a role in its
etiology. In this high risk group of patients polycythemia may contribute to vascular complications
and should be avoided.

PMID: 1680462, UI: 92002272

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Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com (http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com/) Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

gman <gman99@canada.com> wrote in message news:a82f1ece.0302220503.7b005f25@posting.google.com...
> None on my blood tests (that I know of) measure iron in my blood...I really haven't a clue what
> you're yapping about.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439591_1

Cross-Talk Between Iron Metabolism and Diabetes

from Diabetes Posted 08/29/2002 José Manuel Fernández-Real, Abel López-Bermejo, and Wifredo Ricart

Abstract and Introduction Abstract Emerging scientific evidence has disclosed unsuspected influences
between iron metabolism and type 2 diabetes.

> Uncontrolled diabetics (or undiagnosed diabetics) may have extreme thirst. This is so they will
> fill their bladders and piss it all out to remove glucose from their body...that's really all
> there is to it.

And so .. in the polycythemia .. dogs .. who are NOT diabetic .. or they would have mentioned it ..
when THEY have too many red blood cells it is JUST A COINCIDENCE they TOO drink and urinate
excessively .. ?

And since they have high viscosity .. and since diabetic have high viscosity AGAIN is mere
coincidence .. and the fact they are having real results with REMOVAL of iron by either binding it
up with chelators or removal by phlebotomy .. is AGAIN mere coincidence .. ?

Iron Depletion Improves Vascular Dysfunction In Type 2 Diabetes A DGReview of :"Blood Letting in
High-Ferritin Type 2 Diabetes: Effects on vascular reactivity." Diabetes Care
12/17/2002 By Mark Greener

Iron depletion improves vascular dysfunction in type 2 diabetics who have high ferritin
concentrations.

Researchers from University Hospital of Girona, Spain, enrolled 28 men with type 2 diabetes and
serum ferritin levels over 200 ng/ml. This represented around 18 percent of the men attending the
outpatient clinic.

Patients were divided into two groups. One group was observed while the other group underwent
iron depletion through removal of 500 ml blood on three occasions, each session two weeks apart.
The researchers assessed vascular reactivity using ultrasound at baseline as well as after 4 and
12 months.

Endothelium-dependent vasodilatation did not change in either group. However, glyceryl trinitrate
induced vasodilatation improved in those patients that underwent iron depletion. The improvement was
in parallel to decreases in transferrin saturation index and HbA(1c) levels.

Further analysis suggested that alterations in HbA(1c) levels offered the best predictor of changes
in endothelium-independent vasodilatation, although this also correlated with changes in serum
ferritin. However, after 12 months the transferrin saturation index and vasodilatation induced by
glyceryl trinitrate returned to baseline in both groups.

The authors concluded that iron depletion improves vascular dysfunction in patients with type 2
diabetes and high ferritin concentrations. They also called for further studies to assess the
mechanisms underlying these changes.

Diabetes Care "Blood Letting in High-Ferritin Type 2 Diabetes: Effects on vascular reactivity."
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Arch Mal Coeur Vaiss 2001 Aug;94(8):775-8

[Inhibition of iron-catalyzed oxidative reactions restores matching between coronary blood flow and
myocardial metabolic demand in type 2 diabetes.] [Article in French]

Nitenberg A, Ledoux S, Valensi P, Sachs R, Antony I Service de physiologie et d'explorations
fonctionnelles, hopital Louis-Mourier, CHU Xavier-Bichat, Colombes.

In diabetes, endothelium-dependent dilation of large and small coronary arteries is impaired, which
results in a mismatch between myocardial metabolic demand and coronary blood flow. It has been
proved that deferoxamine, an iron chelator that inhibits Fenton and Haber-Weiss reactions, restores
a normal response to cold pressor test and flow increase in angiographically normal epicardial
coronary arteries of diabetic patients. This result suggests that nitric oxide could be inactivated
by reactive oxygen species. The aim of this study was to assess the effects of deferoxamine on
coronary microcirculation vasomotion when myocardial oxygen demand is increased by sympathetic
stimulation elicited by cold pressor test in type 2 diabetic patients. In 17 patients with
angiographically normal coronary arteries and without any other coronary risk factors, coronary
blood flow has been measured using quantitative angiography and intracoronary Doppler at baseline
and during a cold pressor test, before and after intravenous administration of 500 mg deferoxamine.
Increase in rate-pressure product, an estimate of myocardial metabolic demand, was similar before
and after deferoxamine (+21.1 +/- 8.7% vs +20.5 +/- 8.9%, respectively), but coronary blood flow
increase was significantly higher after deferoxamine (+6.3 +/- 12.9% vs +31.8 +/- 16.7%,
respectively, p < .001), and coronary resistance was increased before deferoxamine and decreased
after (+14.8 +/- 21.9% vs -7.9 +/- 10.9%, respectively, p < .001). Moreover, before deferoxamine,
the negative correlation between coronary blood flow and rate-pressure product changes before
deferoxamine (R
= .518, P < 0.05) was turned in a positive relationship after deferoxamine
(r = 0.546, p < 0.05). In conclusion, in type 2 diabetic patients, endothelium-dependent dilation
of the coronary microcirculation is restored when iron-catalysed oxidative reactions are inhibited
by deferoxamine, which restores the normal matching between myocardial oxygen demand and coronary
blood flow.

PMID: 11575202, UI: 21459966

Who loves ya. Tom

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com (http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com/) Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

This guy Tom is actually the biggest idiot on usenet and has absolutely no idea of what he talks
about. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

DAK

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David A. King, D.M.D. Board Certified Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon Diplomate, American Board of OMS
http://www.deomfs.com (http://www.deomfs.com/) "gman" <gman99@canada.com> wrote in message
news:a82f1ece.0302220503.7b005f25@posting.google.com...
> >
> > How's the viscosity in these .. controlled .. diabetics ..
> >
> > Since desferal .. and iron reduction have shown some real results in
this ..
> > I suppose .. the tendency TO BE controlled would ALSO be affected by the iron chelation and/or
> > removal .. and THAT which has been shown to ALSO
lower
> > the erythrocytosis .. would AGAIN bring the erythrocytosis / thick blood back into the picture.
> >
> > Simply because it seems controlling the iron ALSO control the diabetes.
>
> In all my research regarding diabetes (which is farily substantial) I have never read or heard the
> word iron refer to anything other then the stuff one lifts at a gym in order to build muscle. None
> on my blood tests (that I know of) measure iron in my blood...I really haven't a clue what you're
> yapping about. Uncontrolled diabetics (or undiagnosed diabetics) may have extreme thirst. This is
> so they will fill their bladders and piss it all out to remove glucose from their body...that's
> really all there is to it.

>This guy Tom is actually the biggest idiot on usenet and has absolutely no idea of what he talks
>about. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. DAK

Hello again, Dave. Perhaps Tommy's problem is that he has not tool of any kind.

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
slenon@tampabay.rr.com http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

"ironjustice" <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:CwQ5a.56584$9K5.2576612@news0.telusplanet.net...

>.. according to his .. sig .. that

He is qualified !

--
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com (http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com/) Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

What conclusions should we draw from this sig ?