20 Sec * '53-12' @~ 60 rpm- All-out Uphill

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Hello,
I have been recommended to perform approx.10 repetitions of the above in order to improve climbing ability;

If anybody has comments on how to make the b e s t out of this workout, that would be appreciated.

Also, is this workout actually works on climbing abilities (only)? or like.. general strength improvement ?

Thanks!!

...Also, is this workout actually works on climbing abilities (only)? or like.. general strength improvement ?...You might want to read this piece by Andy: http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/

In a nuthsell, the intervals you describe won't do much for either general strength or climbing. Even though they'll hurt and feel like strength work, the peak forces at 60 rpm are way too low compared to your one rep max to induce much hypertrophy unless you do them from a standstill, so the strength training part doesn't hold up. For climbing improvement, it's tough to see how 20 second intervals will do much unless you're training for very steep 20 second hills that you'll ride at 60 rpm....not likely. Where did this workout come from? It has a certain Carmichael ring to it.....

Coaches can dream up lots of specific interval exercises that are very painful and hard to perform. But that doesn't mean they're grounded in good exercise science or that they'll induce the desired adaptations. But the two big questions in the intervals you've posted are: - what metabolic systems are they targeting, and are the forces high enough relative to your one rep maximum such that they'll encourage hypertrophy and increase muscle strength. You might be able to pull off the latter if you do these from a standstill, sort of like uphill standing starts but otherwise I'm not sure what they'll do for you except burn some workout and recovery time.

-Dave

Thank you Dave.
One thing you're right for sure-it does hurt a bit :-)
Now seriously as there is a gap between my ability on the flats and uphill which I want to narrow as much and as fast as possible (and I have 6-7%fat..) I'll read the A.Coggan link you sent me and will go from there.
By the way my theory that partially explains that gap is that on the flats I use sort of micro-recoveries that enable me to regenerate power right after those brief pauses, a thing that I cannot have uphill.. makes sense to you?
if you say that Carmichael is the root source of this workout I won't argue with you though I got that from a rider that I know who was himself instructed by somebody else;
Thanks again!

general strength improvement ? Yeah, I've done those as a neuro-muscular workout to increase my peak power during sprinting, nothing to do with climbing. If you normally do a lot of climbing at 60 rpm (doubtful) this might have some small benefit but I'm with Dave that it's not going to do much for your climbing. There are better ways to improve climbing.

Thanks Steve;
Reference (links) to the best known ways to improve climbing would be appreciated!

...By the way my theory that partially explains that gap is that on the flats I use sort of micro-recoveries that enable me to regenerate power right after those brief pauses, a thing that I cannot have uphill...Which gets me back to my initial thoughts when you posted about those micro-recoveries. How about backing your intensity off a bit and doing steady work that doesn't require pauses? You don't need to work right up against your FTP to increase FTP and those micro-rests sure make it sound like you're pushing the intensity a bit too hard. If you have to back off 5% but in doing so you can sustain continuous efforts without breaks that sounds like a better strategy to me.

As for bridging the gap between flat riding and climbing how about doing more of your SST/L4/L5 actually on climbs? Does your local terrain make that tough or can you find steady hills that allow 10 minutes or more in level?

Good luck,
-Dave

As for bridging the gap between flat riding and climbing how about doing more of your SST/L4/L5 actually on climbs? Does your local terrain make that tough or can you find steady hills that allow 10 minutes or more in level? That's my recommendation for better climbing. One very good way to get better at something is to do it often.

Hello,
I have been recommended to perform approx.10 repetitions of the above in order to improve climbing ability;

If anybody has comments on how to make the b e s t out of this workout, that would be appreciated.

Also, is this workout actually works on climbing abilities (only)? or like.. general strength improvement ?

Thanks!!these will do nothing for your climbing.. will likely help your jumps, ability to cross short gaps quickly, maybe even your sprint etc but not climbing... unless the hills you are trying to get better at are 20sec long.

want to get better on hill... work on your FTP and get as lean as you can... strenght is not the limiting factor on hills sustainable power to weight is...

you don't need to read a study, just think about it for a second. the strenght necessary to torque the pedals while climbing are very small... think about the power and torque you put out in a sprint (for me 1100W over 15sec) as compared to what you or even a good pro climber would do on a hill (400W+).. you have probably at least twice the strength necessary for a good pro to climb at. the problem is not being able to torque the pedals a lot, the problem is torquing the pedals a little bit repeatedly (80-90 times a minute) for a 5 - 10 - 20min +... so what you want to do is be able to provide oxygen and nutrients to the muscle and have them metabablize that and produce as much energy over that time period as possible... this ability/adaptation is increased by working on your FTP... strength is not limiting here... you are working the wrong energy system altogether.

Thanks Dave -I'll give your idea some thought (-5%);
Unfortunately no such hills in current Local terain-need to drive..45 min to get to these hills- do you think L4,L5 for 10 min on a trainer will yield similar benefit ?

Roger that DoctorSpoc. Thanks.



these will do nothing for your climbing.. will likely help your jumps, ability to cross short gaps quickly, maybe even your sprint etc but not climbing... unless the hills you are trying to get better at are 20sec long.

want to get better on hill... work on your FTP and get as lean as you can... strenght is not the limiting factor on hills sustainable power to weight is...

you don't need to read a study, just think about it for a second. the strenght necessary to torque the pedals while climbing are very small... think about the power and torque you put out in a sprint (for me 1100W over 15sec) as compared to what you or even a good pro climber would do on a hill (400W+).. you have probably at least twice the strength necessary for a good pro to climb at. the problem is not being able to torque the pedals a lot, the problem is torquing the pedals a little bit repeatedly (80-90 times a minute) for a 5 - 10 - 20min +... so what you want to do is be able to provide oxygen and nutrients to the muscle and have them metabablize that and produce as much energy over that time period as possible... this ability/adaptation is increased by working on your FTP... strength is not limiting here... you are working the wrong energy system altogether.

....Unfortunately no such hills in current Local terain-need to drive..45 min to get to these hills- do you think L4,L5 for 10 min on a trainer will yield similar benefit ?Well, the trainer may help you get past the need to take micro-rests during your sustained efforts. And the ability to continuously deliver power in low inertia situations is key to climbing well, but if you want to be a much better climber you're going to need to do some climbing sooner or later. Sure it's mostly about watts/kg, but there's also mental and tactical aspects. For instance do you use your gears well on hills, not downshifting too early or too late, standing when appropriate and using your upper body well while standing? Can you mentally settle into a good climbing rythm on longer climbs and slide fore or aft on the saddle in a way that works for you? Can you punch a shorter climb in the 3 to 8 minute range appropriately hard without second guessing your pace halfway up the climb?

The trainer is great and it's all I can do now for climbing or any other riding till the snow melts but it's still not climbing. If you consistently have a big delta between the power you can put out on the flats and on the climbs and you've been training steady threshold and SST efforts then you probably need to spend a bit more time actually climbing. If that's just not feasible, then sure use the trainer for those steady efforts.

But getting back to your original post I'd focus on steady sustainable efforts, not any sort of short interval work. From your description of the micro-rests it sounds like you need to work on steady sustained pacing and not your ability to put out high power for shorter efforts. That can be as much mental as physical but either way it sounds like a classic case of the need to train your weaknesses.

Good luck,
-Dave

Appreciated.



[QUOTE=daveryanwyoming]Well, the trainer may...

Hello again
referring to A.Coggan’s Power Based Training Levels table, at the several times that I trained based on this approach, I calculated the zone’s percentage while the basis was my 30min best power (353W); today I noticed that Andy actually refers to a 60min avg power which is obviously lower probably around 300 or even less (have not tried);


based on 353w, 106-120% = 372-424W – so I was trying to hold 420 for a few minutes (my best recorded on polar WIND in this wattage range is 400W/10 min.)



if I do 120% of 300W that would be 360 which I can hold for a few minutes without calling it a hard interval….



So-my question is, should I keep taking the 353W as a basis ?



BTW, last april-may, I was LT tested for the first and only time – a conconi protocol on a Technogym – my LT was at 230W (!) at 152 HR/min.

For the comparison, the avg of the 30min 353W is 176HR/min (finish at 184 of 191 max )

That probably means that I actually ‘tolerate’ acids and do the 353 way beyond LT…



Not sure what are the ‘productive’ ranges of wattage for me….

Thanks!!!

When in doubt try doing your intervals of a given length at 90-95% of your best effort for that same duration.

For instance, if your best 5 minute effort is 400 watts, target 360-380 watts for 5 minute repeats. If you can easily finish all the planned efforts then bump them up, if you can't complete the individual efforts or have to cut the workout short back off a bit.

It aint rocket science, pick interval durations that target specific metabolic processes and do hard but not necessarily maximal intervals for that duration.

-Dave
P.S. Your LT test results point to the problem with that approach and if your tester used a Conconi method(deflection in HR vs pwr relationship) I'd find someone else to do your future testing. Sure LT should be below your FTP, but 100+ watts below???

Thank you very much Dave.

For climbing improvement, it's tough to see how 20 second intervals will do much unless you're training for very steep 20 second hills that you'll ride at 60 rpm....not likely.
Unless you are a mountain biker... in that case being able to grind it out over a short steep climb is generally faster than the alternatives of walking or falling off your bike. ;)

How is OP's scheme different to L7 interval repeats?

Thank you Dave.
One thing you're right for sure-it does hurt a bit :-)
Now seriously as there is a gap between my ability on the flats and uphill which I want to narrow as much and as fast as possible (and I have 6-7%fat..) I'll read the A.Coggan link you sent me and will go from there.
By the way my theory that partially explains that gap is that on the flats I use sort of micro-recoveries that enable me to regenerate power right after those brief pauses, a thing that I cannot have uphill.. makes sense to you?
if you say that Carmichael is the root source of this workout I won't argue with you though I got that from a rider that I know who was himself instructed by somebody else;
Thanks again!
At 6% you don't have a whole bunch of weight left to lose.

The best way to get better at riding in the hills is to ride more in the hills. Simple.

There's the problem of less momentum and less drafting that stops you from recovering as well between efforts on a climb in a bunch situation. The added resistance of riding up hill puts a wee bit more stress on the legs too.

Your position is likely to be slightly different - unless you ride on the tops of the bars on the flat or out of the saddle on the brake levers hoods alot. The only way to effectively get used to it is to ride in the hills more.

I used to find the best way to "recover" on hills was to find a hill that took about 10 minutes to climb and do 30 seconds on followed by 30 seconds rest. Target rpm was about 80rpm out of the saddle. I saw my breakfast again at least once a year doing that but it worked like a charm though.

As Yoda said "Hills, ride more you should"

Hi,
I see quite some publications, telling that certain (Hatha)Yoga practices can "increase lungs capacity", improve respiratory system / oxygen uptake..

I'm Interested (and curious) to hear your view on that!
BR.

Hi,
I see quite some publications, telling that certain (Hatha)Yoga practices can "increase lungs capacity", improve respiratory system / oxygen uptake..

I'm Interested (and curious) to hear your view on that!
BR.Lung capacity is not the limiting factor in cycling performance. Maximal oxygen consumption (VO2max) rather than maximal oxygen uptake is.

http://home.hia.no/~stephens/ventphys.htm (http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/ventphys.htm)