Landis' last gasp

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IMO... the Hein Verbruggens and others who used doping as a means of controlling the peloton... knowing full well that it existed... and condoning and doing little to eradicate it because it cost a lot of money to act, or it reduced their power over cyclists... those guys should be in jail. If they'd done their job, a lot of cyclists could ride clean knowing that the guy next to them wasn't going to trounce them on some juice.The cunningness of these dudes is that they can probably never be convicted...unless several riders offer clear evidence that they were aware of the extent of doping, and chose to keep silent.

I never said that I would not have doped. However I would NOT have accepted fan money once popped. Simple enough?Okay so you would cheat clean cyclists out of a career.. but you would draw the line at cheating fans out of their money...

The thing that I find funny is that we follow this sport that is created for those with little integrity. Those that have integrity to the extent that they wouldn't dope at all, probably don't even have the luxury that Lemond had (making a big assumption that he was squeaky clean which I highly doubt) of winning for a while before the EPO hit the fan. The moral righteous cyclist today (esp. a couple of years ago) probably doesn't even make it onto a pro team. So we have a bunch of shifty-eyed morally flexible cyclists as pros, cause they have to be, and then when they get caught, we expect them to be moral upright citizens and repent.We don't expect them to repent. We (or at least I) just expect them to own up. Sure, this may not happen immediately; there may be a period of disbelief, etc., but accept your offense by the time the tests are confirmed. It is when they start the big-time BSing that I lose sympathy for them.

I only feel sorry for Floyd to the extent that if it was a clean sport... he maybe wouldn't have had to dope to succeed. I know he is a lying, cheating, snivelling personality... because he has to be, to be where he is.I disagree. Not all cheaters will act the way FL did - creating a fund for financing his campaign of lies, shoot of threatening calls to Lemond, etc.

The cunningness of these dudes is that they can probably never be convicted...unless several riders offer clear evidence that they were aware of the extent of doping, and chose to keep silent.Cunningness... Funningness. Doping to these guys is like us ploughing through a stop sign in a local fun ride. It's like everyone ploughs through the stop sign... but after you win they look at the video (of just you) and see that you didn't stop at the stop sign. So the winner (maybe if he hasn't taken the appropriate action to mask his video image) gets labelled a cheat and gets hurled with stones, and his life is taken away from him... a life built up on lies and deception that he and no one else ever ploughed through a stop sign... Meanwhile everyone keeps ploughing through stop signs and hoping that their video masking works and they don't get caught.

We need better video cameras.

Cunningness... Funningness. Doping to these guys is like us ploughing through a stop sign in a local fun ride. It's like everyone ploughs through the stop sign... but after you win they look at the video (of just you) and see that you didn't stop at the stop sign. So the winner (maybe if he hasn't taken the appropriate action to mask his video image) gets labelled a cheat and gets hurled with stones, and his life is taken away from him... a life built up on lies and deception that he and no one else ever ploughed through a stop sign... Meanwhile everyone keeps ploughing through stop signs and hoping that their video masking works and they don't get caught.

We need better video cameras.Are you mocking me or something? Do you understand whom I am referring to as "these dudes"???

Okay so you would cheat clean cyclists out of a career.. but you would draw the line at cheating fans out of their money...probably yes because at that point I wouldn't even think that they are clean cyclists.

Where are you going with this? why the aggressiveness?

We don't expect them to repent. We (or at least I) just expect them to own up. Sure, this may not happen immediately; there may be a period of disbelief, etc., but accept your offense by the time the tests are confirmed. It is when they start the big-time BSing that I lose sympathy for them.

I disagree. Not all cheaters will act the way FL did - creating a fund for financing his campaign of lies, shoot of threatening calls to Lemond, etc.At what stage of the process do we assume they're guilty? After all... false positives are possible. There needs to be some avenue for an innocently charged victim to get some justice... right? I'm not suggesting Floyd was innocent. But I do notice that most of us assume guilt once the positive test comes in.

We have people on here who ascertain that the UCI corruptly singled out those that were going to fail tests... that gave passes to certain cyclists and teams that they liked, yet we think it impossible that they would falsely nail someone. I think it is possible that they could find someone doping in 2004... reveal nothing at the time... then later, when they don't like the guy, nail him arbitrarily, knowing deep down that he was a doper before... and any punishment now is justified because justice wasn't served previously. I think some people could sleep on that type of delayed justice. That doesn't mean the cyclist isn't a cheat. I just know that there is little accountabilty in the system for the dope controllers and that power corrupts.

At what stage of the process do we assume they're guilty? After all... false positives are possible. There needs to be some avenue for an innocently charged victim to get some justice... right? I'm not suggesting Floyd was innocent. But I do notice that most of us assume guilt once the positive test comes in.That is only because we know most of the riders are dopers anyway. The system is set up such that the chance of false positives is small. If both A and B samples test positive, what is the chance that it is a false positive?

We have people on here who ascertain that the UCI corruptly singled out those that were going to fail tests... that gave passes to certain cyclists and teams that they liked, yet we think it impossible that they would falsely nail someone. I think it is possible that they could find someone doping in 2004... reveal nothing at the time... then later, when they don't like the guy, nail him arbitrarily, knowing deep down that he was a doper before... and any punishment now is justified because justice wasn't served previously. I think some people could sleep on that type of delayed justice. That doesn't mean the cyclist isn't a cheat. I just know that there is little accountabilty in the system for the dope controllers and that power corrupts.Yes, I do think that they do not arbitrarily slap positives on people. The lab would know that something is odd if something like that happens.

Edited to add: What is your point here? You started off saying that you have sympathy for the riders, and now you are implying that the riders are getting nailed by false positives???

Are you mocking me or something? Do you understand whom I am referring to as "these dudes"???Bad syntax there... I am not trying to be personal, and apologize for that inference... my point that was presented clumsily is that I don't think these guys are that cunning. I think their deceptive practises are well-honed over the years to the point that it is almost part of a day's work. Of course... when they get done in they are suddenly in the spotlight and on their own... wondering what to do.... hence the crap that we hear shortly after the news of the positive test.

They will do whatever it takes to restore their dignified public image and the respect of their family and friends. Their internal self-dignity was buried years and years ago.

Bad syntax there... I am not trying to be personal... my point that was presented clumsily is that I don't think these guys are that cunning. I think their deceptive practises are well-honed over the years to the point that it is almost part of a day's work. Of course... when they get done in they are suddenly in the spotlight and on their own... wondering what to do.... hence the crap that we hear shortly after the news of the positive test.

They will do whatever it takes to restore their dignified public image and the respect of their family and friends. Their internal dignity was buried years and years ago.So you did misunderstand what I meant by "these dudes". I was referring to dudes like McQuaid and Verbruggen. I would suggest that you go through my post again in that light. How do you convict them for anything?

probably yes because at that point I wouldn't even think that they are clean cyclists.

Where are you going with this? why the aggressiveness?Please don't take what I am saying as personal... Maybe I am just getting bored with the constant soap-opera style lampooning/derision of these doping victims for years and years, with nothing much ever said that is new other than to mock the struggling victim.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tyler H. committed suicide. I am not saying that we should feel sorry for him... but I do think that we unfairly load on the guys who get caught... then the next week we cheer about Cancellara or Boonen, or Freire, as if these guys are somehow exulted because they know which gynacologist is not going to be raided.

So you did misunderstand what I meant by "these dudes". I was referring to dudes like McQuaid and Verbruggen. I would suggest that you go through my post again in that light. How do you convict them for anything?Okay... I thought you meant the cunningness of the guys like Landis. My misinterpretation sorry.

Please don't take what I am saying as personal... Maybe I am just getting bored with the constant soap-opera style lampooning/derision of these doping victims for years and years, with nothing much ever said that is new other than to mock the struggling victim.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tyler H. committed suicide. I am not saying that we should feel sorry for him... but I do think that we unfairly load on the guys who get caught... then the next week we cheer about Cancellara or Boonen, or Freire, as if these guys are somehow exulted because they know which gynacologist is not going to be raided.Hey, I have never cheered for any of these dudes.And come to chink of it, has anyone really been cheering for them? Having a discussion about who is expected to win a race is different from cheering.

probably yes because at that point I wouldn't even think that they are clean cyclists.

Where are you going with this? why the aggressiveness?Ok, now that the thread is becoming less personal, I can indulge in this:

Cranky, 'fess up! Are you planning to start doping? This discussion could be the start of the defense in case you are outed sometime. :p

That is only because we know most of the riders are dopers anyway. The system is set up such that the chance of false positives is small. If both A and B samples test positive, what is the chance that it is a false positive?

Yes, I do think that they do not arbitrarily slap positives on people. The lab would know that something is odd if something like that happens.

Edited to add: What is your point here? You started off saying that you have sympathy for the riders, and now you are implying that the riders are getting nailed by false positives???Well I was just answering your point about the BSing that goes on. But on reading your post again... I do understand what you mean with regard condemning evidence... then a continuation of the false proclaiming of innocence. The problem is...once you've proclaimed your innocence initially... you have created an even deeper hole that makes it even harder to get out of. For to admit you doped, would then be to admit you cheated AND you lied when you were caught. It is a neverending downward spiral that incrementally doesn't seem like a big deception each time you add to the lie... but in the end is huge. Look at the Nick Leeson saga as a corrollary.

Ok, now that the thread is becoming less personal, I can indulge in this:

Cranky, 'fess up! Are you planning to start doping? This discussion could be the start of the defense in case you are outed sometime. :pYou are too wise Mr. Clouseau... :p .

No.. I'm not going to start doping at my age... but the thought that I could get to a level that I might run into a few kinda discourages me. At the moment... it is highly unlikely I run into a doper.

Okay...I'm starting to have compassion for these guys. I think they have been hung by the system. At every step of the way, their incremental decision making was understandable. Hell the guy watched LA become a hero and was just copying the his MO (not so well as it turned out). And in the US... it's not like France. You pony up that you cheated and lied for 10 years and there is no mercy... unlike in Europe where most fans are aware you were probably doping in any case and there is a little more sympathy it seems.

For these guys cycling was their life, and doping was part of the rules of play as a Pro. It just wasn't the rules that were displayed to the public for obvious reasons. It was a problem that developed over decades... and got to the point where the governing bodies tried to hide it, knowing that to eradicate it, they would have to almost destroy the sport in the public's perception. Well...it's getting destroyed now anyway... because the sport is being forced to cut their losses (Festina, Op Puerto)... but the Landis' and the Hamiltons' are the victims and scapegoats. What chance have we got of Heiny-V admitting corruption, or fraud, or that they protected doping cyclists once upon a time?

I know everyone is going to say they chose to cheat and they chose to lie. But they probably started doing that as Cat 1's like most of the other Cat 1's. It's just when the prize get's bigger, we expect them to be exemplary moral specimens worthy of our adoration.

I know a lot of guys in the US condemned Bill Clinton knowing they would have probably taken Monica's offer if they were in the same position. There is mob stoning mentality in this country when celebrities fail morally... almost as a way of shedding their own guilt and making themselves feel better that if they condemn it, then they are not like them. Look at these preachers here that turn out to use gay prostitutes and take meth. Same phenomena. Look at the mob stoning mentality here in this forum... juxtaposed against the poll results that most of the GT forum would dope themselves if they were pros.

If the argument is that they should have ponied up when the positive test came in... I say human nature... they will try to cling onto the lie as long as there is a slight chance that they can retain their fake dignity. To admit guilt in the US possibly could have meant estrangement from their family and close friends whom they had lied to for 10 plus years... as well as ending their cycling career instantaneously and making them social pariahs like Nixon.

To not dope meant they had no cycling career when the whole peloton were doing it. If the governing bodies had been tougher and created a mostly clean peloton (within their limits), these guys wouldn't have had to cheat. They might have won clean and been heroes. But they either doped... or gave their performance away relative to their doped competitors and road at the back of the peloton or cat 1 back at home off the tour.

Okay... had my weekly sound off... resume stoning.
few wrong assumptions. There are some talented guys who can have a career and be clean.

And Clinton's conquests pale in comparison to Henry "I bed glamours and bomb nation states" Kissinger.

Kissinger, a short, relatively uncharismatic, ugly, short, curly haired, whiney voiced guy versus Bubba, who was relatively good looking for such an esteemed position. Best he could do was an intern with the relative attractiveness of a female kissinger with a beret. Please. :p

<note, tounge is not a metaphor for cunnilingus>

they will have to wind up the Tyler Hamilton Foundation. They were paying the CEO near 6 figures, and the distributions were miniscule. So much for charity.


So Armstrong walks away with McConaughey and a net worth near 9 figures, Hamilton and Landis divorcing, Levi lost his hair, surely Odessa will follow. Landis no money left, probably loses his step daughter, probably has fallen out with his best mate Will Geoghagon, his mentor father-figure committed suicide.

Doping US o' A style, paintin' a rosy picture of domesticity yah?
I think it's a bit much to throw in that man's suicide as part of the Landis doping aftermath...although I'm sure it was devastating to him nonetheless.

That being said, it's a sad irony that FL probably lied to avoid losing everything...and now...he's losing everything.

I think it's a bit much to throw in that man's suicide as part of the Landis doping aftermath...although I'm sure it was devastating to him nonetheless.

That being said, it's a sad irony that FL probably lied to avoid losing everything...and now...he's losing everything.Well.. he hasn't lost that much more. It is a known fact that humans will bet the house, even with poor odds, if they are in a big loss situation and the bet gives them even a small chance of breaking even.

Telling truth = losing everything

Telling lies = big chance of losing everything plus some... BUT ALSO: a small chance of coming out looking rosy and innocent.

Well.. he hasn't lost that much more. It is a known fact that humans will bet the house, even with poor odds, if they are in a big loss situation and the bet gives them even a small chance of breaking even.

Telling truth = losing everything

Telling lies = big chance of losing everything plus some... BUT ALSO: a small chance of coming out rosy and innocent.Yes, and some people will always say he was innocent...

And people get divorced for lots of reasons...so both Landis and Hamilton could have ended up divorced either way, IMO. Nobody knows that but them...