Landis' last gasp

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Telling truth = losing everything

Telling lies = big chance of losing everything plus some... BUT ALSO: a small chance of coming out rosy and innocent.We had this discussion, and I still disagree. Telling truth soon (before you build a castle of lies) = not losing everything; could be key to being given a second chance (e.g. Millar).

We had this discussion, and I still disagree. Telling truth soon (before you build a castle of lies) = not losing everything; could be key to being given a second chance (e.g. Millar).
Millar didn't win the TdF...

Millar didn't win the TdF...I was just giving an example. I can however see the point about FL since he had a vested interest in trying to keep the yellow jersey.

But really what do you expect? To deny, threaten lawsuits (and even slap them), etc. for several years, and then finally accept that you were a lying scumbag all the time, and expect sympathy from the public? If they didn't lie outright when caught, and they just served their sentence and came back, I would think that they wouldn't be viewed as outcasts (by the public that is).
.At every stage of the process, they are clinging onto the hope that they can negotiate this storm with their public image intact. In hindsight... after going down in flames... they can probably look back and go "Maybe it would have been best to just admit it at first"...

But to admit it means revealing the truth that you have been hiding for years. I remember reading an anecdote about a guy getting counselling with his wife, and the counsellor said to the husband "You seem like a very tidy guy" as his dress-suit and presentation were immaculate... and the wife started to say to the counsellor that that was only a show and that at home he is a pig... and the husband almost got up off his seat to physically stop his wife from revealing that he was "messy" in reality, shouting and threatening her to shut up. The counsellor was amazed at the display of desperate cover-up over such a petty issue.

My point is that when people hide a truth that they feel guilt about... they often overweigh the effects of that truth being revealed. Hence people will cling to the fake public presentation at all costs.

And in America, I think they would be considered outcasts if they won the TdF, caused people to adulate them, then turned out to be doping cheats. Doping in America (together with other sins) is scorned upon. Can we name a convicted doper, even in Europe, who has served his time, and returned to the peloton with any level of respect from the public? (post edit - I see your good example of Millar... but he had no choice really... he denied it at first... then he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak)

Telling truth = losing everything
You know, I keep going back and forth on this one. On one hand, in the minds of the lucrative American general public, I think they'd be hard pressed to forgive. We Americans barely examine the sport, and if a guy says he didn't dope, and then later, okay I did, then I think he'd get as much support as Eliot Spitzer and for the same reason.

But within the cycling community, I think he'd get a different shake due mostly because an admission would be helpful compared to a retracted court battle that lingers like a bad fart.

I'd have a measure of respect for him if he 'fessed up, but that measure is significantly lessened after each step of the "clear my name" process. At this point -- post CAS -- if he were to admit, I think most people would say, "Okay, sit down." It wouldn't be meaningful.

FLandis and Hamilton should join up and admit everything. Hamilton was on Postal from the before Bruyneel brought in the doctors from ONCE. He could describe how Postal's doping from developed from the beginning. He could also dish the dirt on CSC and Phonak. Landis could give the later development of Postal's program plus Phonak.

If just one of them came forward then they could be dismissed but the two could back each other up.

I think this is there only chance for redemption. If they draw Postal/Disco into it then the story would be more about Armstrong than them. Confirm that they were getting warnings about random tests from the team, and they could cast themselves as scapegoats in a corrupt system.

FLandis and Hamilton should join up and admit everything. Hamilton was on Postal from the before Bruyneel brought in the doctors from ONCE. He could describe how Postal's doping from developed from the beginning. He could also dish the dirt on CSC and Phonak. Landis could give the later development of Postal's program plus Phonak.

If just one of them came forward then they could be dismissed but the two could back each other up.

I think this is there only chance for redemption. If they draw Postal/Disco into it then the story would be more about Armstrong than them. Confirm that they were getting warnings about random tests from the team, and they could cast themselves as scapegoats in a corrupt system.
Geez, it isn't the mob. They didn't friggin kill anybody. Nobody would do what you just suggested. These were people they worked with and were presumably their friends, many of them. It was the culture they were a part of. No it isn't fair that only the riders are hung out to dry...but that's the deal. And only the riders get the fame, glory, and endorsement deals too.

FLandis and Hamilton should join up and admit everything. Hamilton was on Postal from the before Bruyneel brought in the doctors from ONCE. He could describe how Postal's doping from developed from the beginning. He could also dish the dirt on CSC and Phonak. Landis could give the later development of Postal's program plus Phonak.

If just one of them came forward then they could be dismissed but the two could back each other up.

I think this is there only chance for redemption. If they draw Postal/Disco into it then the story would be more about Armstrong than them. Confirm that they were getting warnings about random tests from the team, and they could cast themselves as scapegoats in a corrupt system.I agree with you that if this whole house of cards tumbled down and the carpet was lifted... then we could make a fresh start.

I think a lot of your motivation Bro is to see LA meet some justice. I think that drives you doesn't it?

I'm not arguing with you or contradicting you on that point. The problem is that when that happens, cycling in America will be hit by a label that will be hard to lose. It will devastate the public image here. It wouldn't surprise me if more people started trying to run cyclists off the road (which a lot of them want to do anyhow) with shouts of "You're all dopers and cheats".

Doesn't excuse the fact that Armstrong cheated and got away with it. Just be prepared for the backlash if he went down like Roger Clemens possibly could.

And in America, I think they would be considered outcasts if they won the TdF, caused people to adulate them, then turned out to be doping cheats. Doping in America (together with other sins) is scorned upon. Can we name a convicted doper, even in Europe, who has served his time, and returned to the peloton with any level of respect from the public? (post edit - I see your good example of Millar... but he had no choice really... he denied it at first... then he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak)That is why I said "admit the truth before you build a castle of lies". I think there is a certain point beyond which you will not gain much 'fessing up. Also, I don't know if doping is really scorned upon in good old US of A - at least from the attitude towards doping in sports like baseball and American football.

...My point is that when people hide a truth that we feel guilt about... they often overweigh the effects of that truth being revealed. Hence people will cling to the fake public presentation at all costs.Excellent point, but -- and I didn't think of this until I read your post -- Landis must be awfully self absorbed not to look at himself critically enough to realize that owning up was and still is the best route. Don't you think? I can excuse stupidity. I mean, what can a person do, get smarter? But self absorption... Okay, stupidity can compound and mitigate it, but there's no blanket excuse for it.

It's not like Armstrong. Really, I hate to say it, but there were no prosecutable positives for him to face, but Landis was caught dead to rights.

You know, I keep going back and forth on this one. On one hand, in the minds of the lucrative American general public, I think they'd be hard pressed to forgive. We Americans barely examine the sport, and if a guy says he didn't dope, and then later, okay I did, then I think he'd get as much support as Eliot Spitzer and for the same reason.

But within the cycling community, I think he'd get a different shake due mostly because an admission would be helpful compared to a retracted court battle that lingers like a bad fart.

I'd have a measure of respect for him if he 'fessed up, but that measure is significantly lessened after each step of the "clear my name" process. At this point -- post CAS -- if he were to admit, I think most people would say, "Okay, sit down." It wouldn't be meaningful.
Well, yeah. Hell, you can't "write" an entire book saying you didn't do it and then say okay I did...he doesn't have any choice but to stick with it...

And everyone seems to be forgetting that LA did the blame and deny game perfectly, so why would FL have done any differently at that point? And Tyler Hamilton would have gotten away to some degree with his gigantic attempts to claim innocence, if OP hadn't happened.

It will be interesting to see what happens in this season to anyone who gets caught...in the post-Armstrong/post-OP/post-Landis world of 2008. Now you can say maybe it's better to just tell the truth and take the punishment as quickly as possible to get back on the bike as quickly as possible.

FLandis and Hamilton should join up and admit everything. Hamilton was on Postal from the before Bruyneel brought in the doctors from ONCE. He could describe how Postal's doping from developed from the beginning. He could also dish the dirt on CSC and Phonak. Landis could give the later development of Postal's program plus Phonak.

If just one of them came forward then they could be dismissed but the two could back each other up.

I think this is there only chance for redemption. If they draw Postal/Disco into it then the story would be more about Armstrong than them. Confirm that they were getting warnings about random tests from the team, and they could cast themselves as scapegoats in a corrupt system.I don't know if Landis will ever do it though. Just imagine the outrage that would result, especially from the people who contributed to his fund - and I would imagine that those people would be the ones he would not want to alienate.

NNS, by "redemption" I guess Bro is thinking about a chance to participate in the big races again.

Excellent point, but -- and I didn't think of this until I read your post -- Landis must be awfully self absorbed not to look at himself critically enough to realize that owning up was and still is the best route. Don't you think? I can excuse stupidity. I mean, what can a person do, get smarter? But self absorption... Okay, stupidity can compound and mitigate it, but there's no blanket excuse for it.

It's not like Armstrong. Really, I hate to say it, but there were no prosecutable positives for him to face, but Landis was caught dead to rights.
I disagree...(well not with saying that he's self-absorbed, because he's a world class athlete, and I think that kind of goes with it) but these guys exist in their own cycling culture...what precedent is there for him to "realize" that owning up was the best route. Do you think a single person in his circle gave him that advice. What, in fact, was he to do after his poor old sweet mother went out to TV cameras and joyfully said her son said he didn't do it and she believed him....he still has to go home for Christmas you know...

...Also, I don't know if doping is really scorned upon in good old US of A - at least from the attitude towards doping in sports like baseball and American football.Yeah, but those are regarded as skill sports and it's a jump in the minds of people to understand the performance benefits of steroids, HGH and the like. I think if Clemens 'fessed up the acceptance from the general public would be a mixed bag. He wouldn't get into the Hall, likely won't now anyway, but people would understand that, if the top batters are doped, then wouldn't it make sense if the top pitchers were too?

As for cycling, the general public sees it as a non-skill sport and so PEDs have a greater impact and are regarded as more important than talent. The general public would regard Landis as a complete fraud, while Clemens would, to a certain degree, get a pass in the sense that he would still be regarded as an athlete. Landis is but a geeky chemist on a bicycle.

That is why I said "admit the truth before you build a castle of lies". I think there is a certain point beyond which you will not gain much 'fessing up. Also, I don't know if doping is really scorned upon in good old US of A - at least from the attitude towards doping in sports like baseball and American football.
Yes, it is. Cranky lives here now, and he knows what he's saying. A popular athlete can go from hero to zero in five seconds flat. Maybe everyone believes that doping is prevalent, but they still don't like to see someone they admire having done it. And obvious dopers like Barry Bonds are scorned.

I disagree...(well not with saying that he's self-absorbed, because he's a world class athlete, and I think that kind of goes with it) but these guys exist in their own cycling culture...what precedent is there for him to "realize" that owning up was the best route. Do you think a single person in his circle gave him that advice. What, in fact, was he to do after his poor old sweet mother went out to TV cameras and joyfully said her son said he didn't do it and she believed him....he still has to go home for Christmas you know...I can see that. I forgot about the FFF. It's probably a calculated risk, but I reserve the right to view him as a self absorbed dumb ass. I was trying to make the man fit the mold.

...Also, I don't know if doping is really scorned upon in good old US of A - at least from the attitude towards doping in sports like baseball and American football.Disagree with your view on that.

...but I reserve the right to view him as a self absorbed dumb ass. LOL... :p

Having your whole fake world and life collapse around you has a way of making you self-absorbed though. And since when did cyclists need to pass an aptitude test to make it as a pro?... :D

Disagree with you on that.Care to elaborate on that? As I said, I don't know. I thought the majority was not scorning at Bonds.

Yeah, but those are regarded as skill sports and it's a jump in the minds of people to understand the performance benefits of steroids, HGH and the like. I think if Clemens 'fessed up the acceptance from the general public would be a mixed bag. He wouldn't get into the Hall, likely won't now anyway, but people would understand that, if the top batters are doped, then wouldn't it make sense if the top pitchers were too?

As for cycling, the general public sees it as a non-skill sport and so PEDs have a greater impact and are regarded as more important than talent. The general public would regard Landis as a complete fraud, while Clemens would, to a certain degree, get a pass in the sense that he would still be regarded as an athlete. Landis is but a geeky chemist on a bicycle.
Exactly. You speak the truth Bro, in THAT I believe. :D

When did it come out that Landis was divorcing and Amber left him btw? I hadn't heard that one until reading jimmypop's post, but it sounded like it was old news based on the tone of his post. Granted, I haven't been following everything for the last several months . . . .