Paula - 2:15:25 !

[Tim Grose]

One word "unbelievable"

Cheers Tim

[Jonathan Sydenh]

I watched her on TV courtesy of Eurosport with its inept Danish comentators (they didn't know the
story of the origin of the marathon distance, they thought that the old-fashioned diving suit's only
outing was in New York, they didn't "understand" any of the costumes (i.e. that many represented
charities, and the Samaritans telephone) and stated that this year's marathon didn't raise nay money
for charity. They didn't translate the splits into kilometres (Danes don't do English miles) and
practically the only thing they talked about - incessantly - was the prize money. They knew none of
the landmarks apart from Tower Bridge. They didn't know that there are three different starting
points; they indicated that the mass start for the "slow runners" (like me) was the only starting
line. They were bamboozled to see two wheel chair starts (men and women). They were generally more
interested in discussing the Paris marathon last week (which one of them had run). But even so - I
got to watch Paula! Jonathan "Tim Grose" <tim@runtrackdir.com> wrote in message
news:b7bdh4$9g2$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> One word "unbelievable"
>
> Cheers Tim

[Miss Anne Throp]

Oh, I don't know.......several other words come to mind. Uninterested, unimportant,
underwhelming....

[Prfipwqu99]

On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:18:12 -0500, Tim Grose wrote:

> One word "unbelievable"

add one more "steroids," so we end up with "unbelievable steroids"

[Sam]

And people complain about the rare coverage we get in the US...

"Jonathan Sydenham" <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote in message
news:3e995258$0$52200$edfadb0f@dread16.news.tele.dk...
> I watched her on TV courtesy of Eurosport with its inept Danish
comentators
> (they didn't know the story of the origin of the marathon distance, they thought that the
> old-fashioned diving suit's only outing was in New York, they didn't "understand" any of the
> costumes (i.e. that many represented charities, and the Samaritans telephone) and stated that this
> year's marathon didn't raise nay money for charity. They didn't translate the splits into
> kilometres (Danes don't do English miles) and practically the only thing they talked about -
> incessantly - was the prize money. They
knew
> none of the landmarks apart from Tower Bridge. They didn't know that there are three different
> starting points; they indicated that the mass start
for
> the "slow runners" (like me) was the only starting line. They were bamboozled to see two wheel
> chair starts (men and women). They were generally more interested in discussing the Paris marathon
> last week
(which
> one of them had run). But even so - I got to watch Paula! Jonathan "Tim Grose"
> <tim@runtrackdir.com> wrote in message news:b7bdh4$9g2$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> > One word "unbelievable"
> >
> > Cheers Tim
> >
>

[Marilynn Dulane]

On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 10:39:05 -0500, prfipwqu99 wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:18:12 -0500, Tim Grose wrote:
>
>> One word "unbelievable"
>
> add one more "steroids," so we end up with "unbelievable steroids"

lol

[Lyndon]

Prfipwqu99 wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:18:12 -0500, Tim Grose wrote:
>
>> One word "unbelievable"
>
>add one more "steroids," so we end up with "unbelievable steroids"
>

I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs without some kind of training
revolution (i.e., the Chinese, or Geb and Komen--and EPO) you have to be suspicious. We know that
the Chinese were doing HGH, because their swim team was caught at customs trying to smuggle it into
Australia, but they were also doing crash training with very high mileage for females. In the case
of Paula, though, I'm not aware of anything particularly unique about her training (hard and high
volume, but how many Kenyan women run three times a day?).

Below are the top 20 times prior to Paula's latest. Note that it took more than a decade to break
Ingrid Kristriansen's record and then 3 years to break
2:20......And then the flood gates opened, and 3 of the presently 6 fastest times are by one person.
Compare with the pregression in, say, the women's 800 or 400 (which the Chinese didn't
contest). Compare with what happened when Lydiard came around, or Aouita (where there were
legitimate advances in training).

Guilty as charged.

All-Time Marathon List - World Women

The top 20 performances and top 50 performers Paula Radcliffe (GBR) 2:17:18 (1) Chicago 13Oct02
Catherine Ndereba (KEN) 2:18:47 (1) Chicago 07Oct01 Radcliffe 2:18:56 (1) London 14Apr02 Ndereba
2:19:26 (2) Chicago 13Oct02 Naoko Takahashi (JPN) 2:19:46 (1) Berlin 30Sep01 Wei Yanan (CHN) 2:20:23
(1) Beijing 20Oct02 Tegla Loroupe (KEN) 2:20:43 (1) Berlin 26Sep99 Margaret Okayo (KEN) 2:20:43 (1)
Boston 15Apr02 Loroupe 2:20:47 (1) Rotterdam 19Apr98 Ingrid Kristiansen (NOR) 2:21:06 (1) London
21Apr85 Ndereba 2:21:12 (2) Boston 15Apr02 Mizuki Noguchi (JPN) 2:21:18 (1) Osaka 26Jan03 Joan
Benoit (USA) 2:21:21 (1) Chicago 20Oct85 Sun Yingjie (CHN) 2:21:21 (2) Beijing 20Oct02
[3] Yoko Shibui (JPN) 2:21:22 (3) Chicago 13Oct02 Svetlana Zakharova (RUS) 2:21:31 (4) Chicago
13Oct02 Ndereba 2:21:33 (1) Chicago 22Oct00 Uta Pippig (GER) 2:21:45 (1) Boston 18Apr94 Masako
Chiba (JPN) 2:21:45 (2) Osaka 26Jan03 Takahashi 2:21:47 (1) Bangkok 06Dec98 -- 20 performances
by 14 performers -- Naoko Sakamoto (JPN) 2:21:51 (3) Osaka 26Jan03 Eri Yamaguchi (JPN) 2:22:12
(1) Tokyo 21Nov99 Gete Wami (ETH) 2:22:19 (1) Amsterdam 20Oct02 Lornah Kiplagat (KEN) 2:22:22
(4) Osaka 26Jan03 Catherina McKiernan (IRL) 2:22:23 (1) Amsterdam 01Nov98 Lydumila Petrova
(RUS) 2:22:32 (3) London 14Apr02

Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

[Chris Peacock]

"Tim Grose" <tim@runtrackdir.com> wrote in message news:b7bdh4$9g2$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> One word "unbelievable"
>
> Cheers Tim
>

Couldn't agree more Tim, it was such a fantastic run. I've been a fan of Paula's for some time, now
I am awestruck with her abilities.

I must admit, I have not posted in this group for quite some time. Is it full of Trolls? The
sarcastic remarks from others on here astounds me. Her success comes from hard work (and good sleep)
and it has taken her more than 10 year to get to her current physical level. Doubters should visit
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/newsmakers/2939525.stm and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/world_athletics/1483621.stm before they make
judgements regarding steroid abuse.

ShaneC

[Roger Hunter]

"Lyndon" <airlyndon@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030413141100.08708.00000753@mb-fw.aol.com...
> I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs
without
> some kind of training revolution (i.e., the Chinese, or Geb and Komen--and
EPO)
> you have to be suspicious.

I know what you're saying, but you have to remember that Radcliffe hasn't just said she's
'anti-drug', she's led a veritable crusade against them. This suggests she's either onto something
that really is undetectable, or she's not on drugs. Whilst I'd like to believe the it's the latter,
I'd have to agree that her apparent inability to perform well at 10,000m - yet to decimate a field
at the marathon - is somewhat strange, given that 10k and marathon ability have a high correlation.
It's simply another reason that our sport sucks at the highest levels. Even if she really is an
outstanding marathoner, few will believe she's achieved it without assistance. See where being soft
on drugs has got us?

Roger.

[Peter Blunden]

Given that Radcliffe has taken such a public stand against drug use, given that she has publicly
singled out drug cheats (remember it was she who held up the sign "EPO cheats out!" at the Edmonton
games 2 years ago), and given that she has allowed, even insisted, on random drug testing on
herself, I'd say your accusations are completely groundless.

In <20030413141100.08708.00000753@mb-fw.aol.com> airlyndon@aol.comnospam (Lyndon) writes:

>I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs without some kind of training
>revolution (i.e., the Chinese, or Geb and Komen--and EPO) you have to be suspicious. We know that
>the Chinese were doing HGH, because
.....

>Guilty as charged.

[Steve Common]

airlyndon@aol.comnospam (Lyndon) wrote:

>I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs without some kind of training
>revolution

You've been closely following her training have you? Explain it to us?

>Guilty as charged.

Shoot first, ask question later and who gives a f*k about evidence. Hang the *****, burn the witch.
Right on. What a country :-/

[Slygopher]

I don't believe Paula Radcliffe would require illegal drugs to perform so well. I watched her run
track races and shorter road races she had heaps of guts but seemed to loose it in the closing
stages. That ever increasing head bobbing tipped off others she was beginning to suffer. They would
blow by her and she would fade. The marathon seems to agree with her. There is a piece of video of
her finishing on the BBC website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/london_marathon_2003/2943913.stm They say she was training
in Albuquerque.

[Tim Grose]

Lyndon I have always found your posts interesting and informed. Sadly this was not one such one.

The sadest thing of all is even people like you now think that any improvement in an athlete must be
unnatural.

I don't know her personally (although did go for a run with her once many years ago) but from what I
have heard she has certainly defined a new way of approaching training. A few years ago she used to
race very frequently. Now she does not.

It seems her life is totally devoted to training spending most of the year at her training base and
reportedly running 140 miles a week but getting more than 12 hours a sleep and at certain times of
the year having Gerald Hartmann on hand to cater for every massage/treatment need.

She has hardly come from nowhere - World Junior XC Champ in 1992 and more or less each year since
then has set pbs.

By your logic everybody who have ever smashed a world record must be on something.

Cheers Tim Grose

"Lyndon" <airlyndon@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030413141100.08708.00000753@mb-fw.aol.com...
> Prfipwqu99 wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:18:12 -0500, Tim Grose wrote:
> >
> >> One word "unbelievable"
> >
> >add one more "steroids," so we end up with "unbelievable steroids"
> >
>
> I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs
without
> some kind of training revolution (i.e., the Chinese, or Geb and Komen--and
EPO)
> you have to be suspicious. We know that the Chinese were doing HGH,
because
> their swim team was caught at customs trying to smuggle it into Australia,
but
> they were also doing crash training with very high mileage for females.
In the
> case of Paula, though, I'm not aware of anything particularly unique about
her
> training (hard and high volume, but how many Kenyan women run three times
a
> day?).
>
> Below are the top 20 times prior to Paula's latest. Note that it took
more
> than a decade to break Ingrid Kristriansen's record and then 3 years to
break
> 2:20......And then the flood gates opened, and 3 of the presently 6
fastest
> times are by one person. Compare with the pregression in, say, the
women's 800
> or 400 (which the Chinese didn't contest). Compare with what happened
when
> Lydiard came around, or Aouita (where there were legitimate advances in training).
>
> Guilty as charged.
>
> All-Time Marathon List - World Women
>
> The top 20 performances and top 50 performers Paula Radcliffe (GBR) 2:17:18 (1) Chicago 13Oct02
> Catherine Ndereba (KEN) 2:18:47 (1) Chicago 07Oct01 Radcliffe 2:18:56 (1) London 14Apr02 Ndereba
> 2:19:26 (2) Chicago 13Oct02 Naoko Takahashi (JPN) 2:19:46 (1) Berlin 30Sep01 Wei Yanan (CHN)
> 2:20:23 (1) Beijing 20Oct02 Tegla Loroupe (KEN) 2:20:43 (1) Berlin 26Sep99 Margaret Okayo (KEN)
> 2:20:43 (1) Boston 15Apr02 Loroupe 2:20:47 (1) Rotterdam 19Apr98 Ingrid Kristiansen (NOR)
> 2:21:06 (1) London 21Apr85 Ndereba 2:21:12 (2) Boston 15Apr02 Mizuki Noguchi (JPN) 2:21:18 (1)
> Osaka 26Jan03 Joan Benoit (USA) 2:21:21 (1) Chicago 20Oct85 Sun Yingjie (CHN) 2:21:21 (2)
> Beijing 20Oct02
> [10]Yoko Shibui (JPN) 2:21:22 (3) Chicago 13Oct02 Svetlana Zakharova (RUS) 2:21:31 (4) Chicago
> 13Oct02 Ndereba 2:21:33 (1) Chicago 22Oct00 Uta Pippig (GER) 2:21:45 (1) Boston 18Apr94 Masako
> Chiba (JPN) 2:21:45 (2) Osaka 26Jan03 Takahashi 2:21:47 (1) Bangkok 06Dec98 -- 20 performances
> by 14 performers -- Naoko Sakamoto (JPN) 2:21:51 (3) Osaka 26Jan03 Eri Yamaguchi (JPN) 2:22:12
> (1) Tokyo 21Nov99 Gete Wami (ETH) 2:22:19 (1) Amsterdam 20Oct02 Lornah Kiplagat (KEN) 2:22:22
> (4) Osaka 26Jan03 Catherina McKiernan (IRL) 2:22:23 (1) Amsterdam 01Nov98 Lydumila Petrova
> (RUS) 2:22:32 (3) London 14Apr02
>
>
> Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track
Coach
> Brooks Johnson

[Tim Grose]

Uninterested,
> unimportant, underwhelming....

Sounds like what people think of your posts

[David Forbes]

What utter rubbish. Let's look at your data.

Are you saying Ndereba was on drugs when she improved from 2:21:33 (Chicago, October 2000) to
2:18:47 (Chicago, October 2002)?? Just as much an improvement as Paula's.

Of course Deena Drossin, who improved her marathon time in London by 5 minutes (2:26:53 in 2002) is
naturally squeeky clean!! That sort of improvement is much more likely to be "drug-induced".

Radcliffe has run 3 marathons and has improved her time by 3 minutes so she must be using an
undetectable drug!! Gimme a break!

What is wrong with you people? All these women have great talent and a huge work effort, and we are
seeing improvements in training methods that are working.

Let's see the American athletics federation come clean about US athletes and drug use.

Dave

Lyndon wrote:
>
> Prfipwqu99 wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 05:18:12 -0500, Tim Grose wrote:
> >
> >> One word "unbelievable"
> >
> >add one more "steroids," so we end up with "unbelievable steroids"
> >
>
> I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs without some kind of training
> revolution (i.e., the Chinese, or Geb and Komen--and EPO) you have to be suspicious. We know that
> the Chinese were doing HGH, because their swim team was caught at customs trying to smuggle it
> into Australia, but they were also doing crash training with very high mileage for females. In the
> case of Paula, though, I'm not aware of anything particularly unique about her training (hard and
> high volume, but how many Kenyan women run three times a day?).
>
> Below are the top 20 times prior to Paula's latest. Note that it took more than a decade to break
> Ingrid Kristriansen's record and then 3 years to break
> 2:20......And then the flood gates opened, and 3 of the presently 6 fastest times are by one
> person. Compare with the pregression in, say, the women's 800 or 400 (which the Chinese
> didn't contest). Compare with what happened when Lydiard came around, or Aouita (where there
> were legitimate advances in training).
>
> Guilty as charged.
>
> All-Time Marathon List - World Women
>
> The top 20 performances and top 50 performers Paula Radcliffe (GBR) 2:17:18 (1) Chicago 13Oct02
> Catherine Ndereba (KEN) 2:18:47 (1) Chicago 07Oct01 Radcliffe 2:18:56 (1) London 14Apr02 Ndereba
> 2:19:26 (2) Chicago 13Oct02 Naoko Takahashi (JPN) 2:19:46 (1) Berlin 30Sep01 Wei Yanan (CHN)
> 2:20:23 (1) Beijing 20Oct02 Tegla Loroupe (KEN) 2:20:43 (1) Berlin 26Sep99 Margaret Okayo (KEN)
> 2:20:43 (1) Boston 15Apr02 Loroupe 2:20:47 (1) Rotterdam 19Apr98 Ingrid Kristiansen (NOR)
> 2:21:06 (1) London 21Apr85 Ndereba 2:21:12 (2) Boston 15Apr02 Mizuki Noguchi (JPN) 2:21:18 (1)
> Osaka 26Jan03 Joan Benoit (USA) 2:21:21 (1) Chicago 20Oct85 Sun Yingjie (CHN) 2:21:21 (2)
> Beijing 20Oct02
> [10]Yoko Shibui (JPN) 2:21:22 (3) Chicago 13Oct02 Svetlana Zakharova (RUS) 2:21:31 (4) Chicago
> 13Oct02 Ndereba 2:21:33 (1) Chicago 22Oct00 Uta Pippig (GER) 2:21:45 (1) Boston 18Apr94 Masako
> Chiba (JPN) 2:21:45 (2) Osaka 26Jan03 Takahashi 2:21:47 (1) Bangkok 06Dec98 -- 20 performances
> by 14 performers -- Naoko Sakamoto (JPN) 2:21:51 (3) Osaka 26Jan03 Eri Yamaguchi (JPN) 2:22:12
> (1) Tokyo 21Nov99 Gete Wami (ETH) 2:22:19 (1) Amsterdam 20Oct02 Lornah Kiplagat (KEN) 2:22:22
> (4) Osaka 26Jan03 Catherina McKiernan (IRL) 2:22:23 (1) Amsterdam 01Nov98 Lydumila Petrova
> (RUS) 2:22:32 (3) London 14Apr02
>
>
> Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

[Jonathan Sydenh]

She broke the world 10k road record earlier this year. Inability? J "Roger Hunter"
<ronin11@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:3e99bfc8_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> "Lyndon" <airlyndon@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> news:20030413141100.08708.00000753@mb-fw.aol.com...
> > I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs
> without
> > some kind of training revolution (i.e., the Chinese, or Geb and
Komen--and
> EPO)
> > you have to be suspicious.
>
> I know what you're saying, but you have to remember that Radcliffe hasn't just said she's
> 'anti-drug', she's led a veritable crusade against them. This suggests she's either onto something
> that really is undetectable, or she's not on drugs. Whilst I'd like to believe the it's the
> latter, I'd have to agree that her apparent inability to perform well at 10,000m - yet to decimate
> a field at the marathon - is somewhat strange, given that 10k and marathon ability have a high
> correlation. It's simply another reason that our sport sucks at the highest levels. Even if she
> really is an outstanding marathoner, few will believe she's achieved it without assistance. See
> where being soft on drugs has got us?
>
>
> Roger.

[Mat]

> >I don't believe it either. Whenever you see rapid progression in WRs
without
> >some kind of training revolution
>
> You've been closely following her training have you? Explain it to us?
>
> >Guilty as charged.
>
> Shoot first, ask question later and who gives a f*k about evidence. Hang the *****, burn the
> witch. Right on. What a country :-/

Absobloodylutely right. Anyone having even a passing interest in athletics would know that she is
about the least likely competitor in today's event to have done so with any kind of performance
enhancing drug. She's just the best. By a long way. And she's British. Suck it up.

[Steve]

She has always had ability but not the fast finish for a tactical race. It's obvious she and her
husband have had to have a rethink and decided that trying to run people into the ground is the way
to go.No messing about just run flat out from gun to tape, it seems to work!

Steve

[Zb]

"Tim Grose" <tim@runtrackdir.com> wrote in message news:b7coen$fej$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> Lyndon I have always found your posts interesting and informed. Sadly this was
not
> one such one.
>
> The sadest thing of all is even people like you now think that any improvement in an athlete must
> be unnatural.
>
> I don't know her personally (although did go for a run with her once many years ago) but from what
> I have heard she has certainly defined a new way
of
> approaching training. A few years ago she used to race very frequently.
Now
> she does not.
>
> It seems her life is totally devoted to training spending most of the year at her training base
> and reportedly running 140 miles a week but getting more than 12 hours a sleep and at certain
> times of the year having Gerald Hartmann on hand to cater for every massage/treatment need.
>
> She has hardly come from nowhere - World Junior XC Champ in 1992 and more
or
> less each year since then has set pbs.
>
> By your logic everybody who have ever smashed a world record must be on something.

Spot on. Why do we have to suspect someone as a cheat when they have put in so much effort and
have clearly not "come from nowhere". She was always a talented runner, perhaps it has been the
self belief which came from her first victories that has snowballed into her simply getting better
and better. Surely another reason for her impressive performance today was that she was being
paced by men.

[Roger Hunter]

"Jonathan Sydenham" <sydenham@mail.dk> wrote in message
news:3e99c0dc$0$52090$edfadb0f@dread16.news.tele.dk...

> She broke the world 10k road record earlier this year. Inability?

I shouldn't have to draw the dots for you Jonathan, but if you insist. I was referring to her track
performances prior to her marathon 'breakthrough'.

Roger.