EPO? Yes of no?

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Lance was given EPO during his treatment. I guess with proper documentation, a cyclist could compete legally with it. They do with other drugs that are PED, unless supplemented by a legit MD's perscription.And he was also taking EPO (and who knows what other PEDs) while racing (illegally of course). A retroactive test of his old 1999 samples revealed them to be positive for EPO, but since it is far enough back to be unable to sanction for, he is still going scot-free.

And he was also taking EPO (and who knows what other PEDs) while racing (illegally of course). A retroactive test of his old 1999 samples revealed them to be positive for EPO, but since it is far enough back to be unable to sanction for, he is still going scot-free.
As very many are, have and will.
I wonder how many others have retired and are now thinking, "I am glad all the attention is on Lance and the current field instead of me" knowing full well they are just as guilty.

Just saying :)

And he was also taking EPO (and who knows what other PEDs) while racing (illegally of course). A retroactive test of his old 1999 samples revealed them to be positive for EPO, but since it is far enough back to be unable to sanction for, he is still going scot-free.


I don't think EPO was on the list in 1999 but I am open to be corrected.

I don't think EPO was on the list in 1999 but I am open to be corrected.You're probably right jhusk. I'm not very familiar with the history and don't know when EPO was added to the list of banned substances.

You're probably right jhusk. I'm not very familiar with the history and don't know when EPO was added to the list of banned substances.


EPO is a natural substance that is present in the body and the synthetic stuff disappears after a time. The effects last much longer,of course.
If I recall correctly the tests for EPO were developed around 2000 and one of the methods is to compare mature red cells to immature ones.
That being said I am not a doctor or lab tech so as stated I am very open to being corrected.

The way it works is a constant game of cat and mouse.
Those testing are and most likely will always lag behind those creating new forms. Think about the span of time of those competing that were using EPO in a period where the governing authorities didn't even realize that it was a drug being used for performance enhancement. Then there is a span of time of trying to figure out how to test for that particular drug and establish testing criteria. With designer drugs and labs like Balco (which there are many) this will continue. There will be periods when the testing technology and criteria will appear to be update, but you will never know for sure. By the time they catch up there is something new. It is my belief athletes will now turn from EPO (some desperate will still try to use it just like some still try blood doping) to finding something new. Even when I was heavily involved with this stuff I was always amazed to hear about something on the black market that others had been using and I didn't even know about, but eventually word gets around on the "street" and the more it gets around on the street is when the governing authorities jump on it.

Sorry if I am sounding pesimistic like Flyer.

The way it works is a constant game of cat and mouse.
Those testing are and most likely will always lag behind those creating new forms. Think about the span of time of those competing that were using EPO in a period where the governing authorities didn't even realize that it was a drug being used for performance enhancement. Then there is a span of time of trying to figure out how to test for that particular drug and establish testing criteria. With designer drugs and labs like Balco (which there are many) this will continue. There will be periods when the testing technology and criteria will appear to be update, but you will never know for sure. By the time they catch up there is something new. It is my belief athletes will now turn from EPO (some desperate will still try to use it just like some still try blood doping) to finding something new. Even when I was heavily involved with this stuff I was always amazed to hear about something on the black market that others had been using and I didn't even know about, but eventually word gets around on the "street" and the more it gets around on the street is when the governing authorities jump on it.

Sorry if I am sounding pesimistic like Flyer.No, what you are saying is true - dopers are always one step ahead of the testers. The dope doctors either have new drugs, or have new agents that mask existing drugs. That's why they get paid the big bucks from the riders.

And he was also taking EPO (and who knows what other PEDs) while racing (illegally of course). A retroactive test of his old 1999 samples revealed them to be positive for EPO, but since it is far enough back to be unable to sanction for, he is still going scot-free.
Like I said its only cheating if the rules say it is cheating.

EPO, testosterone, and blood doping is still done in the field.

What would be more interesting to hear about is what are they doing that is one step ahead that is not yet against the rules (because they haven't figured out a test yet).

I had heard some riders were returning 0 testosterone levels. They suspect that some riders could be using a powder they could put on thier fingure tips before a test then flick through thier urine stream. The powder had an ensime that destroyed protiens wiping out all evidence of testosterone high or low.

Like I said its only cheating if the rules say it is cheating.

EPO, testosterone, and blood doping is still done in the field.According to the rules, they are cheating. Just because one is clever enough to not get caught does not mean that s/he is not cheating.

What would be more interesting to hear about is what are they doing that is one step ahead that is not yet against the rules (because they haven't figured out a test yet).

Gene Doping (http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/content/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=122427&itype=7418) is out on the far edge as one item of discussion.

What's the difference between taking PEDs, and using some advanced technology that no-one else has access to (like aero-bars when they first came out)?

I can't see one. Both are attempts to give you an unfair advantage over other riders.

According to the rules, they are cheating. Just because one is clever enough to not get caught does not mean that s/he is not cheating.
What I was getting at on that post was Lance wasn't "cheating" back then (assuming the reports are true). The rules have changed and people are still doping and it is officially cheating.

I'm interested in what people are doing that currently isn't "cheating".


Gene doping....now there is a risk if ever I heard one!! At least with hormones or EPO you can stop taking them!

Cycling is about man and machine (or woman). What can a person get out of themselves on two wheels with a spring of guide lines.
It has been determined from time to time that certain designs can't be used because of the unfair advantage ruling. You should watch the movie "The Flying Scotsman" very funny segments and shows how arrogant the UCI can be when they don't like something/someone.

There are MANY limitations on what design elements you can use on a UCI legal road bike.

What's the difference between taking PEDs, and using some advanced technology that no-one else has access to (like aero-bars when they first came out)?

I can't see one. Both are attempts to give you an unfair advantage over other riders.


Public knowledge!

Public knowledge!
Yep, mom and dad won't care if their son or daughter wants aero bars because their favorite rider is using a certain piece of equipment, but when kids are able to locate a dealer or internet source because news on the street is you have to use PED's they will blindly use PED's without a doctor or knowledge on how to use.

I have to admit that is how I got started way back when. My first injection I had no clue other than put some in a syringe and try not to hit a nerve or artery. My first number of years half of what I used wasn't even real and probably had contaminants. Later we were stupid enough to create certain types of anabolics on the kitchen stove. Some of those guys ended up with abssesses that had to be surgically opened and cleaned. I ended up becoming a dealer so that I could get closer to the source so that everything I used was legit and not fake. It just took me deeper into the badlands.

By the way I post these things if only to do one thing and that is bring clarity that using PED's is not just cheating. There are a lot of risks involved and a lot of personal damage and shame that will go along with it. None of these people that are eventually exposed like Landis, Marion Jones, Conseco and so on are having a feel good moment right now.

Yep, mom and dad won't care if their son or daughter wants aero bars because their favorite rider is using a certain piece of equipment, but when kids are able to locate a dealer or internet source because news on the street is you have to use PED's they will blindly use PED's without a doctor or knowledge on how to use.

I have to admit that is how I got started way back when. My first injection I had no clue other than put some in a syringe and try not to hit a nerve or artery. My first number of years half of what I used wasn't even real and probably had contaminants. Later we were stupid enough to create certain types of anabolics on the kitchen stove. Some of those guys ended up with abssesses that had to be surgically opened and cleaned. I ended up becoming a dealer so that I could get closer to the source so that everything I used was legit and not fake. It just took me deeper into the badlands.

By the way I post these things if only to do one thing and that is bring clarity that using PED's is not just cheating. There are a lot of risks involved and a lot of personal damage and shame that will go along with it. None of these people that are eventually exposed like Landis, Marion Jones, Conseco and so on are having a feel good moment right now.


Yes, bike components won't cause your heart rate to drop to zero in your sleep.

Yep, mom and dad won't care if their son or daughter wants aero bars because their favorite rider is using a certain piece of equipment, but when kids are able to locate a dealer or internet source because news on the street is you have to use PED's they will blindly use PED's without a doctor or knowledge on how to use.

I have to admit that is how I got started way back when. My first injection I had no clue other than put some in a syringe and try not to hit a nerve or artery. My first number of years half of what I used wasn't even real and probably had contaminants. Later we were stupid enough to create certain types of anabolics on the kitchen stove. Some of those guys ended up with abssesses that had to be surgically opened and cleaned. I ended up becoming a dealer so that I could get closer to the source so that everything I used was legit and not fake. It just took me deeper into the badlands.

By the way I post these things if only to do one thing and that is bring clarity that using PED's is not just cheating. There are a lot of risks involved and a lot of personal damage and shame that will go along with it. None of these people that are eventually exposed like Landis, Marion Jones, Conseco and so on are having a feel good moment right now.Good point Felt. The pros get their drugs through team doctors, or external doping specialists like Fuentes; but to reach that stage, they probably start (when they are not pro that is) by buying drugs in the black market, and administering them themselves, and that has its risks and dangers...

That's not my point.

My point is why is it ok to get an advantage using technology that is not available to everyone, but it is not ok to get an advantage using PEDs?

Both are cheating imo, since it is not solely your body, your training, and your desire that helps you win.

That's not my point.

My point is why is it ok to get an advantage using technology that is not available to everyone, but it is not ok to get an advantage using PEDs?

Both are cheating imo, since it is not solely your body, your training, and your desire that helps you win.Are there any documented cases of where someone got an unfair advantage using technology? Don't see such a thing happening at least in the current environment.

Are there any documented cases of where someone got an unfair advantage using technology? Don't see such a thing happening at least in the current environment.

Low pressure chamber, sleeping capsule. Used by Lance. Artificial way to increase red blood cells.

As far bike equipment, bikes and equipment are examined and deemed ok or not. They are out there for the whole world to see. Using covert methods for physical enhancement is a whole other world.
Equipment technology is constantly evolving. I am not saying there have not been instances of cheating using illegal equipment, but it is difficult and rare that someone gets away with it.