Which Half is Better

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When I do a 4 minute interval after a 3x20 I spend the first two minutes bringing heart rate from 120 up to about 163bpm then the next 2 minutes I go from 120 to some where within 10bpm of max heart rate that is some where above 175bpm for me (my max is 185bpm). My question is which half is more effective for VO2max training? If I do a 2 minute jump start on my second 20 minute interval that gets me from 120 to 163bpm and a 2 minute acceleration at the end of my third 20 minute interval that goes from 163 to 177bpm which one is better for raising VO2max? Thanks

When I do a 4 minute interval after a 3x20 I spend the first two minutes bringing heart rate from 120 up to about 163bpm then the next 2 minutes I go from 120 to some where within 10bpm of max heart rate that is some where above 175bpm for me (my max is 185bpm). My question is which half is more effective for VO2max training? If I do a 2 minute jump start on my second 20 minute interval that gets me from 120 to 163bpm and a 2 minute acceleration at the end of my third 20 minute interval that goes from 163 to 177bpm which one is better for raising VO2max? ThanksI don't understand your question really. Can you re-phrase?

As for intervals designed to focus on eliciting improvements in VO2 Max, then there are no "halves". You have to do the first half in order to get to the 2nd half - the benefit comes from the whole.

You simply need to sustain an effort level over a duration of say 4-6 minutes that induces VO2 Max and repeats it several times. Heart rate ain't gunna cut it as a guide for such as session.

Sorry I get more heart rate based when the weather gets warmer (no PT just a KK) I added some percent of FTP averages that I tend to get during those efforts. I figure with the jump start at the begining of the second interval that is the first half of a VO2max effort and with the acceleration during the last 2 minutes of the third interval that is the second half. Then I look at it like this if one is better than the other just do that. Lets say the roll on acceleration is better well then I would just end the second and third 20 minute interval with an acceleration from about 96%FTP up to a 115-117% avg for those last two minutes.

When I do a 4 minute interval after a 3x20 I spend the first two minutes bringing heart rate from 120(L2) up to about 163bpm (avg 114% FTP) then the next 2 minutes I go from 120 to some where within 10bpm of max heart rate that is some where above 175bpm (avg 115-117% FTP) for me (my max is 185bpm). My question is which half is more effective for VO2max training? If I do a 2 minute jump start on my second 20 minute interval that gets me from 120 to 163bpm and a 2 minute acceleration at the end of my third 20 minute interval that goes from 163 to 177bpm which one is better for raising VO2max? Thanks

I don't understand your question really. Can you re-phrase?

As for intervals designed to focus on eliciting improvements in VO2 Max, then there are no "halves". You have to do the first half in order to get to the 2nd half - the benefit comes from the whole.

You simply need to sustain an effort level over a duration of say 4-6 minutes that induces VO2 Max and repeats it several times. Heart rate ain't gunna cut it as a guide for such as session.

Sorry I get more heart rate based when the weather gets warmer (no PT just a KK) I added some percent of FTP averages that I tend to get during those efforts. I figure with the jump start at the begining of the second interval that is the first half of a VO2max effort and with the acceleration during the last 2 minutes of the third interval that is the second half. Then I I look at it like this if one is better than the other just do that. Lets say the roll on acceleration is better well then I would just end the second and third 20 minute interval with an acceleration from about 96%FTP up to a 115-117% avg for those last two minutes.

When I do a 4 minute interval after a 3x20 I spend the first two minutes bringing heart rate from 120(L2) up to about 163bpm (avg 114% FTP) then the next 2 minutes I go from 120 to some where within 10bpm of max heart rate that is some where above 175bpm (avg 115-117% FTP) for me (my max is 185bpm). My question is which half is more effective for VO2max training? If I do a 2 minute jump start on my second 20 minute interval that gets me from 120 to 163bpm and a 2 minute acceleration at the end of my third 20 minute interval that goes from 163 to 177bpm which one is better for raising VO2max? Thanks
how it's possible than in the second 2 minutes you start from 120 bpm? You should start from 163 bpm!! There's no break in a 4' interval, otherwise it's a 2' interval :)

The workout I do most of the time is a 3x20 with 5 minute breaks in between. During the first break after the first 20 minute interval I get off the bike then I get back on with a HR of about 120bpm at the start of the second 20 minute interval. For the first 2 minutes of the second interval I ride at about 114% FTP average then I settle back down to about 96%FTP average for the 18 minutes that remain. I take another off the bike break then start the third 20 minute interval riding at 96% for 18minutes and about 115-117% for the last 2 minutes.

how it's possible than in the second 2 minutes you start from 120 bpm? You should start from 163 bpm!! There's no break in a 4' interval, otherwise it's a 2' interval :)

Yeah WD, I don't understand this question either. You seem to me to be too wrapped up in HR. I don't even look at my HR when doing VO2Max intervals. However, if I did I'm sure my HR would rapidly reach a level consistent with the effort I'm putting in and slowly creep up (but not that much) towards the end as the last minute is the hardest. As someone said, there is no first and second halves. If you're doing the intervals at 115% of FTP then your HR would be as above.

Incidentally, I'm not completely anti-HR. I always check my HR at the end of an interval to see how fast it drops. To me this is the true measure of fitness.
These days my HR drops from 157 - 112BPM in exactly1 minute, whereas 6 months ago it only dropped to 119/120 in 1 minute. ;) Tyson

This is a hard one to explain it's just a way I try to blend the VO2max in with my 3x20 and I prefer one "half" over the other and I am hoping the gurus pick the one I like.:)

I prefer roll on acceleration at the end of a 20 minute interval then a five minute break over jump starts and then 18 minutes to work up to equlibrium at 96% which seems to be around 159bpm.
Yeah WD, I don't understand this question either. You seem to me to be too wrapped up in HR. I don't even look at my HR when doing VO2Max intervals. However, if I did I'm sure my HR would rapidly reach a level consistent with the effort I'm putting in and slowly creep up (but not that much) towards the end as the last minute is the hardest. As someone said, there is no first and second halves. If you're doing the intervals at 115% of FTP then your HR would be as above.


Incidentally, I'm not completely anti-HR. I always check my HR at the end of an interval to see how fast it drops. To me this is the true measure of fitness.
These days my HR drops from 157 - 112BPM in exactly1 minute, whereas 6 months ago it only dropped to 119/120 in 1 minute. ;) Tyson

Why?

One reason would be because there are alot of 2 minute hills that I run into on my rides that fit this approach. Another reason is it is easier to handle if I break it up into halfs and blend it into my 3x20 indoors.

Why?

...it's just a way I try to blend the VO2max in with my 3x20....IMHO it's a bad idea to try to blend VO2 Max and L4/SST work into a single interval. I'm not even that big a fan of combining them in the same session, though I've done it. It's hard to maintain the appropriate focus and really give your best effort for L4, L5, L6 or whatever you're targeting when you lump them together. IME I end up with mediocre L5 efforts or half assed L4 efforts when I try to combine them.

Also as the others said, HR is a really lousy metric for L5 work. HR just responds much too slowly to be useful for VO2 Max. OTOH, VO2 Max is about the easiest thing to gauge on breathing and RPE. The idea is to target maximal O2 exchange and sustain it for 3 to 8 minutes. If you're not breathing maximally you're not going hard enough, if you can't complete the target duration or number of repeats you're going too hard. It's about as simple as it gets, ride a steady effort that takes you to maximal breathing in roughly 2 and a half minutes and hold that same effort for the duration.

-Dave

Thanks Dave I think I am taking something for granted here so let me ask you this. If I go 2 minutes at 114% then with no break go 16 minutes at 96% avg and then with no break 2 minutes at 114% isn't that going to give me 4 minutes of VO2max targeted training just as if I went 4 minutes straight at 114%?

IMHO it's a bad idea to try to blend VO2 Max and L4/SST work into a single interval. I'm not even that big a fan of combining them in the same session, though I've done it. It's hard to maintain the appropriate focus and really give your best effort for L4, L5, L6 or whatever you're targeting when you lump them together. IME I end up with mediocre L5 efforts or half assed L4 efforts when I try to combine them.

Also as the others said, HR is a really lousy metric for L5 work. HR just responds much too slowly to be useful for VO2 Max. OTOH, VO2 Max is about the easiest thing to gauge on breathing and RPE. The idea is to target maximal O2 exchange and sustain it for 3 to 8 minutes. If you're not breathing maximally you're not going hard enough, if you can't complete the target duration or number of repeats you're going too hard. It's about as simple as it gets, ride a steady effort that takes you to maximal breathing in roughly 2 and a half minutes and hold that same effort for the duration.

-Dave

... let me ask you this. If I go 2 minutes at 114% then with no break go 16 minutes at 96% avg and then with no break 2 minutes at 114% isn't that going to give me 4 minutes of VO2max targeted training just as if I went 4 minutes straight at 114%?Not to my understanding of the processes involved.

If you want to target a specific metabolic system you have to engage that system for a certain minimum time at a certain minimum intensity. In the case of VO2 max you need sustained efforts for at least 2.5 and up to 8 minutes each. Shorter than 2.5 minutes and you're primarily relying on anaerobic mechanisms, longer than ~ 8 minutes and your intensity isn't high enough by definition and you're primarily relying on long term metabolic processes.

The workout you describe sounds like solid L4 work with a bit of a preload at the start and a kick at the end. I'd think of that as harder than average L4 work and an interesting high end twist on Threshold training. But those 2 minute forays into L5 intensity aren't long enough to fully transition to VO2 Max. I doubt you've fully transitioned to maximal O2 exchange in 2 minutes. I usually hit maximal breathing about 2.5 minutes into an L5 effort and then hang on till the end.

Uriokola and others have posted some good stuff about the ways in which the older aerobic/anaerobic models don't really hold up. Old school thinking would be that you stay completely aerobic at low intensities and at some point (AT) you transition to anaerobic processes. Newer thinking suggests that there is always an anaerobic component to power production, sort of like the starting motor in your car getting the engine running. At very high intensities you rely almost entirely on that anaerobic starter but even at lower intensities you have anaerobic contributions to power output. The Monod Scherrer CP model basically says this as well. Across a wide range of durations power is produced from both aerobic (metabolic) and anaerobic sources.

Taking that further, the more you rely on anaerobic processes the shorter they can be sustained. IOW a full phosphocreatine sprint runs out of gas in 15-30 seconds or so. High intensity anaerobic glycolocis (L6 efforts) can only be held for 2.5 to 3 minutes. Back off to a lower but still significant anaerobic contribution (L5 work) and you're limited to 8 minutes or so.

If you turn those maximum times on their head you get minimum sustained excursions necessary to target specific processes. So for L6 work you need to hit an appropriately high intensity but maybe more importantly you want to hold those efforts for at least 30 seconds and up to ~2.5 minutes. For L5 work you want to hold sustained efforts for at least 2.5 minutes and for L4 work at least 8 minutes.

Anyway, from that standpoint I don't think your hard efforts split into 2 minute chunks are really targeting L5. For sure it puts some extra intensity into your longer L4 interval and the hard preload at the beginning makes for a harder than usual Threshold interval. But from my limited understanding of exercise physiology and adaptation I don't think you're really targeting VO2 max improvement with that workout.

-Dave

Thanks Dave I think I might just do a 4 minute kick at the end if that is the case... BTW I just noticed my example would be a very tough workout I meant to say when I'm done the average is about 96% combining the L4 and L5 efforts.

In the case of VO2 max you need sustained efforts for at least 2.5

the best thing you can do for you VO2max work is to stop doing them after 20min intervals... you will get much better VO2max work done if you do them all before the 20min intervals and you will get an even better 20min interval workouts if you do them the next day after or several days after your VO2max work...

a big mistake people make is that they think as long as the workout hurts a whole lot they are doing well... this just isn't always the case. what you end up doing with when you mix VO2max with L3-4 as you are doing is that it hurts a whole lot but, you are getting a mediocre L3-4 workout and a mediocre L5 workout... it's counter productive and you could be doing a whole lot better.

minimally do the ALL the VO2max work before the L3-4 work... another option would be to start you 20min workout under what you would normally do them and ramp them 5-10W every 5min such that the average watts is you ~FTP... the last few mins will be VO2max to AnCap...

That sounds like a good starting interval I pace the first one conservatively the first 15 minutes and then I could hit VO2max in the last 4 or 5 minutes... I like it. There is a five minute hill just 20 minutes away that would be perfect. Thanks

another option would be to start you 20min workout under what you would normally do them and ramp them 5-10W every 5min such that the average watts is you ~FTP... the last few mins will be VO2max to AnCap...

I think what you are describing is what I do many times. Lately I have been working on extending my SST/L4 longer than 20 minutes and see how my body feels. Every couple days been adding 5 more minutes to it. Once I reach an hour I move up my watts and start from 20 minutes again. During the last 5 minutes of these sessions if I feel good, I try and kick it up a notch. It helps alot with my average watts as always trying to deal with my warm up numbers, if you know what I mean.

-js

Thanks Dave I think I might just do a 4 minute kick at the end if that is the case... BTW I just noticed my example would be a very tough workout I meant to say when I'm done the average is about 96% combining the L4 and L5 efforts.

Just had another idea after the commute ride home today while still in my work clothes I just got on the KK for 4 minutes rode like a nut at 116% 22mph aprox get off stand in front of the fan for a while and I'm done. I think adding it as a kick at the end of a 3x20 is OK indoors but outdoors it tends to shorten my ride trying to fit it in.

I think what you are describing is what I do many times. Lately I have been working on extending my SST/L4 longer than 20 minutes and see how my body feels. Every couple days been adding 5 more minutes to it. Once I reach an hour I move up my watts and start from 20 minutes again. During the last 5 minutes of these sessions if I feel good, I try and kick it up a notch. It helps alot with my average watts as always trying to deal with my warm up numbers, if you know what I mean.

-js

Ok, if I'm understanding your question correctly, then let me give it a shot. I'm reading that you do two seperate efforts of 2 minutes each where you ride at approx. VO2max power. On the first effort you start from a HR of 120 bpm (fresh from a rest), and on the other you start from a HR of 163 bpm (at the end of an L4 interval). You're wondering which one would be better for improving VO2max. If that's right then maybe I'll collect my lesser prize right now and not push my luck further. :p

If I'm with you this far, then I'd say the second interval should be more effective, although they're both probably only marginally effective at all. The reason is that your body's aerobic processes take some time to ramp up following the increase in power output, and the half-life of those processes is ~30 sec. Since the second effort starts you much closer to VO2max (ie, at ~96% FTP), you body will get much closer to VO2max during the 4 half-lives that comprise the 2-minute effort. The reason neither is likely very effective is that in both cases the metabolic processes are just finally getting taxed by the time you shut 'er down. That's why VO2max intervals are typically recommended for at least ~3 minutes, if not longer.

I've received a post from Andy in the past which I interpreted (possibly incorrectly, but why do they all have to be interpreted anyway? :confused::D )to mean that the stimulus which prompts an increase in VO2max isn't really all that well understood yet, and that it wasn't clear whether VO2max adaptations correlated better with time spent at VO2max, or some other factor, eg. frequency in reaching VO2max. So, it's all probably a crapshoot, but you should hold the effort for at least ~3 minutes to at least ensure that VO2max is reached.

THE END. :)

Ok, if I'm understanding your question correctly, then let me give it a shot. I'm reading that you do two seperate efforts of 2 minutes each where you ride at approx. VO2max power. On the first effort you start from a HR of 120 bpm (fresh from a rest), and on the other you start from a HR of 163 bpm (at the end of an L4 interval). You're wondering which one would be better for improving VO2max. If that's right then maybe I'll collect my lesser prize right now and not push my luck further. :p Wow you nailed it better than I could have and I'm the one that dreamed up this fatally flawed question you win.:)

If I'm with you this far, then I'd say the second interval should be more effective,.That's what I thought otherwise why would DR Coggan in his HRM days recommend getting 10bpm close to MaxHR in the last few intervals. (that should provoke a correction from our leader):) I think it's because it is good to have heart rate at VO2max level when your legs are there.

although they're both probably only marginally effective at all. The reason is that your body's aerobic processes take some time to ramp up following the increase in power output, and the half-life of those processes is ~30 sec. Since the second effort starts you much closer to VO2max (ie, at ~96% FTP), you body will get much closer to VO2max during the 4 half-lives that comprise the 2-minute effort.That sounds great it should hold up under peer review.

The reason neither is likely very effective is that in both cases the metabolic processes are just finally getting taxed by the time you shut 'er down. That's why VO2max intervals are typically recommended for at least ~3 minutes, if not longer.So to fit it in to my busy schedule without shortening my outside training rides what do you think about the idea of doing a 4 minute blast on the KKR on my "recovery" days (Mon Wed Fri Sun) if my attempt to do it outdoors fails the day before. I think I might keep the jump start on the second interval of my 3x20s cause L6 is good to right but I might shorten it to 1 minute of L5 which really would be L6:confused: :D

I've received a post from Andy in the past which I interpreted (possibly incorrectly, but why do they all have to be interpreted anyway? :confused::D )to mean that the stimulus which prompts an increase in VO2max isn't really all that well understood yet, and that it wasn't clear whether VO2max adaptations correlated better with time spent at VO2max, or some other factor, eg. frequency in reaching VO2max. So, it's all probably a crapshoot, but you should hold the effort for at least ~3 minutes to at least ensure that VO2max is reached.

THE END. :)Great stuff Thanks

Wow you nailed it better than I could have and I'm the one that dreamed up this fatally flawed question you win.:) :cool: Sweet.

That's what I thought otherwise why would DR Coggan in his HRM days recommend getting 10bpm close to MaxHR in the last few intervals. (that should provoke a correction from our leader):) I think it's because it is good to have heart rate at VO2max level when your legs are there.I think that's an indication that the interval is both hard enough and long enough to elicit the proper response. I'm not sure starting HR has much to do with it, although it should serve to reduce the necessary ramp-up time slightly.

So to fit it in to my busy schedule without shortening my outside training rides what do you think about the idea of doing a 4 minute blast on the KKR on my "recovery" days (Mon Wed Fri Sun) if my attempt to do it outdoors fails the day before.I wouldn't say that's the best way to train VO2max, but that wasn't your question was it? ;) If you're only going to do a single interval, then do it on the longer end of the L5 spectrum (ie, ~6-8 minutes) rather than the shorter. That'll help ensure that your anaerobic resources are tapped out and your aerobic processes have to fully ramp up to carry the load.

I think I might keep the jump start on the second interval of my 3x20s cause L6 is good to right but I might shorten it to 1 minute of L5 which really would be L6:confused: :D :confused: :D